What's with all the trade Smoove discussions

[Diesel]

I see no reason not to expect continued improvement from both Josh Smith and Marvin Williams over the next few years. Nobody should project them as NBA Superstars but Josh could easily be an All-Star level performer while Marvin could easily be a Caron Butler level performer, IMO.

Marvin Age 22 - 14 ppg/6 rpg, 16 PER, .569 TS%

Butler Age 22 - 15 ppg/5 rpg, 15 PER, .502 TS%

After a few years in the league, we have a better idea of their abilities and weaknesses but there is no reason at all to think that either is done developing as a player.

That's very dangerous.

Projecting is horribly dangerous because you ignore desire. Moreover, it's very decieving. Caron Butler at age 22 was a snot nosed Rookie. He had to undergo a season where he didn't play his best basketball. He had to play for the Lakers and be 4th wheel on the Kobe bus and then he had to go to Washington and become more than what people thought he could be. Caron Butler is the player that he is now because he had the desire to be better than he was at ages 22-24.

Can we say the same about Marvin? Marvin has been a full time starter for 3 years now and playing over 24 minutes his whole career. If there is any desire to be at an allstar level or a Caron Butler level, he would have starting moving towards that. Instead, we have to compare him to good players in their rookie year because we refuse to compare him to players who took the same road that he did (Carmello). Melo at 22 is scary good! But we know Marvin won't be that so we project him to anything that will make him look good. Even if it's just a snot nosed Rookie.

Good luck with that.

[00Blink]

Okay. I think agree SmooveHawksfan, but I think we disagree for different reasons.

I see both the pluses and minuses of Smoove (unlike yourself), but I think that keeping Smoove is in the best business interest of the team.

I have to disagree here Diesel, that I don't look at the minuses of Smoove...every post I've posted of Smoove's potential greatness, I've posted why he isn't or what type of changes he would have to make...jumper, shot selection, 25% more in the post and paint, maturity

I would like to look at SMoove under another coach and with a real PG. Aside from that, I do believe as a lot on this board that SMoove is a very good tradable asset. I just don't think we could recoup his true value.

This is when I will think of trading Smoove, let's see what a real coach and a penetrating/dishing point guard can do for Smoove. Also, I KNOW Smoove is the most tradeable piece we have. Let's face it, JJ is decent, but SGs come a dime a dozen, Michael Redd, Jamal Crawford, Kevin Durant, OJ Mayo, KMart, and these are just good SGs who will probably never make the All-Star game because of how DEEP SGs are in each conference....but Smith IS a rare talent with, still, a high ceiling. Horf nor Marv will yield what JS can/will bring in return

Now... do I make the argument that Smoove will break out and be an allstar player? NO. I don't think any of us know for sure what Smoove will be. How many people gave up on Billups, from when he was with Minnesota--ME!! long ago.. and look how he turned out. At the same time, how many people rode on the Matt Harpring bus until it broke down with flat tires and a blown transmission or Gilbert Arenas or Christian Laettner. The point is that we haven't seen Smoove in the best situation. His potential shines brightly in this bad situation though.

Thank you...your opinion is valued highly

[00Blink]

It's irrelevant if we can. I mean, Marvin + 2 future firsts could probably get either guy ( in their present situation).

However, that's neither here or there.

I think the point is that it's hypocritical to say that Smoove has no more potential and at the same time say that Marvin has all the potential in the world and therefore we must sign him to a contract that's larger than the one Smoove has.

Smoove is an impact player with room to grow.

Marvin is a non-impact player with lots of room to grow but no motivation.

Now this is the best way to compare and contrast the two...an impact player with room to grow vs a non-impact player with much room to grow

[exodus]

SmooveHawksFan you have been on this site long enough that you should know how to quote a post and respond to it. don't put your reponse inside the quote because it makes no sense.

Smith has been working on his jumper constantly since he has been in the league and it still sucks. I don't know why you would expect his jumper to get significantly better.

[00Blink]

SmooveHawksFan you have been on this site long enough that you should know how to quote a post and respond to it. don't put your reponse inside the quote because it makes no sense.

Smith has been working on his jumper constantly since he has been in the league and it still sucks. I don't know why you would expect his jumper to get significantly better.

I'm not taking offense to this and hope you don't either...BUT...don't tell me how to quote or respond, obviously you understand my responses and quotes, maybe I want a direct correlation when someone views my responses, this alleviates confusion, as you can understand my quotes quite easily, maybe this can be my signature response or trademark response, why I gotta be of the norm....also, so what doesn't makes sense to you makes no sense to no one...but you understand them, so how does it makes no sense? please divulge

And not to compare JS to greatness but to the principles, Karl Marlone didn't have his jumper coming into the league, Shawn Kemp didn't have his jumper coming into the league, KG had a jumper but it wasn't consistent coming into the league, Sheed didn't have the range he has on his jumper now coming into the league and the list goes on and on Devin Harris, Tony Parker (list of old and new skool)...you work on the aspect of your game that is not where you want it to be...now if he wanted to just be a low post player, no need to work on his jumper as much or as hard, but that's his desire

[AHF]

That's very dangerous.

Projecting is horribly dangerous because you ignore desire. Moreover, it's very decieving. Caron Butler at age 22 was a snot nosed Rookie. He had to undergo a season where he didn't play his best basketball. He had to play for the Lakers and be 4th wheel on the Kobe bus and then he had to go to Washington and become more than what people thought he could be. Caron Butler is the player that he is now because he had the desire to be better than he was at ages 22-24.

Can we say the same about Marvin? Marvin has been a full time starter for 3 years now and playing over 24 minutes his whole career. If there is any desire to be at an allstar level or a Caron Butler level, he would have starting moving towards that. Instead, we have to compare him to good players in their rookie year because we refuse to compare him to players who took the same road that he did (Carmello). Melo at 22 is scary good! But we know Marvin won't be that so we project him to anything that will make him look good. Even if it's just a snot nosed Rookie.

Good luck with that.

Here are Butler later numbers - you tell me when it become appropriate to compare:

Age 23 - 11 ppg/6 rpg, 10.7 PER, .440 TS%

Age 24 - 16 ppg/6 rpg, 15.8 PER, .528 TS%

Age 25 - 17.5 ppg/6 rpg, 17 PER, .535 TS%

Through his first season in Washington and 3 years older than Marvin, Caron had never matched Marvin's TS% from last year and had racked up 1 season with a better PER, and that PER was only 9% better than Marvin's PER last season. Actually, Caron has still never been as efficient a scorer as Marvin was last season - his TS% has never been as high as Marvin was last year.

So where is the fair comparison? Marvin is similar at age 22 to Butler. Marvin is superior at age 22 compared to Butler at ages 23 & 24. Marvin is very similar to Butler at age 25 with a slight edge to Marvin at age 22.

Butler hit his prime at age 27. Why should we assume Marvin is done at age 22?

Edited May 22, 2009 by AHF

[exodus]

I'm not taking offense to this and hope you don't either...BUT...don't tell me how to quote or respond, obviously you understand my responses and quotes, maybe I want a direct correlation when someone views my responses, this alleviates confusion,

No, it causes confusion. I didn't even know that you were responsing at all at first. I thought you just quoted my post without responding.

Then i looked through and realized you added lines inside the quote. I was able to tell what you wrote because i remembered what i posted. Somebody else reading it would have no idea who was saying what.

And not to compare JS to greatness but to the principles, Karl Marlone didn't have his jumper coming into the league, Shawn Kemp didn't have his jumper coming into the league, KG had a jumper but it wasn't consistent coming into the league, Sheed didn't have the range he has on his jumper now coming into the league

All of those guys were far better shooters than Smith after a few years in the league. There is no comparison. Smith has been in the league for 5 years and you would be hard pressed to find many guys who shoot as many jumpers as Smith and shoot them worse.

[coachx]

I'm not taking offense to this and hope you don't either...BUT...don't tell me how to quote or respond, obviously you understand my responses and quotes, maybe I want a direct correlation when someone views my responses, this alleviates confusion, as you can understand my quotes quite easily, maybe this can be my signature response or trademark response, why I gotta be of the norm....also, so what doesn't makes sense to you makes no sense to no one...but you understand them, so how does it makes no sense? please divulge

Actually I never knew you posted anything in the post your referencing. I thought you quoted a person and forgot to add in your repsonse.

Its alwayse good to quote / post in a format that is reader friendly if you want your stuff to be read.

You say your not taking offense and then you take offense by saying don't tell me how to post....blah, blah, blah. LOL !

Dude is just trying to help you out !

[Diesel]

That's very dangerous.

Projecting is horribly dangerous because you ignore desire. Moreover, it's very decieving. Caron Butler at age 22 was a snot nosed Rookie. He had to undergo a season where he didn't play his best basketball. He had to play for the Lakers and be 4th wheel on the Kobe bus and then he had to go to Washington and become more than what people thought he could be. Caron Butler is the player that he is now because he had the desire to be better than he was at ages 22-24.

Here are Butler later numbers - you tell me when it become appropriate to compare:

Age 23 - 11 ppg/6 rpg, 10.7 PER, .440 TS%

Age 24 - 16 ppg/6 rpg, 15.8 PER, .528 TS%

Age 25 - 17.5 ppg/6 rpg, 17 PER, .535 TS%

Through his first season in Washington and 3 years older than Marvin, Caron had never matched Marvin's TS% from last year and had racked up 1 season with a better PER, and that PER was only 9% better than Marvin's PER last season. Actually, Caron has still never been as efficient a scorer as Marvin was last season - his TS% has never been as high as Marvin was last year.

So where is the fair comparison? Marvin is similar at age 22 to Butler. Marvin is superior at age 22 compared to Butler at ages 23 & 24. Marvin is very similar to Butler at age 25 with a slight edge to Marvin at age 22.

Butler hit his prime at age 27. Why should we assume Marvin is done at age 22?

The comparison was not about the project of Butler 22-24. I told you in my previous post that he had to go through all of that in his first three years in the league. It's funny to me that you always want to bring it to an AGE argument, when really, it's a years in the league starting argument. Caron's second year in the league, he cwas injured most of th the time (if I'm not mistaken) and he just had a bad basketball year. Caron's third year, he was trade for Shaq. Went to the Lakers and was the 3rd-4th option there on a team that many would readily admit was Kobe all the time. In his 4th year in the league, he goes to Washington and bloosoms.

Now Marvin too has been in the league 4 years... 3 of which he was the starter logging 30+ mpg playing 70+ games..

The thing that is funny here is that you want to compare Marvin and project him to Caron Butler... however, you want to ignore Marvin's experience as a pro in the league. Age is not a huge factor in this game. Derrick Rose and OJ Mayo didn't care about Age. Lebron James isn't limited by Age. Lebron is 24 years old, however, he's been to the finals once and the conference finals 3 times. Lebron is the leader of his team. Lebron has been the MVP of the league.

At the same time, a 20 year old Magic Johnson led the Lakers to the NBA championship.

Kobe.. by age 22, was a 2 time NBA Champion.

Age means nothing. Experience is everything.

[coachx]

Diesel,

You kepp using the fact that Butler was 3rd or 4th option for the first 4 years of his career as an excuse for Butler ?

Why is that same excuse not relevant for Marvin ? He has never been more then the 3rd or 4th option in Atlanta. (Which is not at all uncommon for a player at 19,20,21, & 22 years of age.)

I see your agenda blinding you since you allow Butler to use the same excuse that you don't allow Marvin to use.

[AHF]

Age means nothing. Experience is everything.

I'll agree to disagree on this assumption.

If that was the case, then I would expect you would expect greater improvement in the future from Luis Scola than from Andrew Bynum because Bynum has been in the league longer.

If age is the biggest factor you say: Bynum is younger. His upside is greater because of age.

If NBA experience is the bigger factor you say: Scola has less NBA experience. His upside is greater because of experience.

(If you count basketball experience outside the NBA, then Butler had years of college experience that shouldn't be discounted.)

[exodus]

The comparison was not about the project of Butler 22-24. I told you in my previous post that he had to go through all of that in his first three years in the league. It's funny to me that you always want to bring it to an AGE argument, when really, it's a years in the league starting argument. Caron's second year in the league, he cwas injured most of th the time (if I'm not mistaken) and he just had a bad basketball year. Caron's third year, he was trade for Shaq. Went to the Lakers and was the 3rd-4th option there on a team that many would readily admit was Kobe all the time. In his 4th year in the league, he goes to Washington and bloosoms.

Now Marvin too has been in the league 4 years... 3 of which he was the starter logging 30+ mpg playing 70+ games..

The thing that is funny here is that you want to compare Marvin and project him to Caron Butler... however, you want to ignore Marvin's experience as a pro in the league. Age is not a huge factor in this game. Derrick Rose and OJ Mayo didn't care about Age. Lebron James isn't limited by Age. Lebron is 24 years old, however, he's been to the finals once and the conference finals 3 times. Lebron is the leader of his team. Lebron has been the MVP of the league.

At the same time, a 20 year old Magic Johnson led the Lakers to the NBA championship.

Kobe.. by age 22, was a 2 time NBA Champion.

Age means nothing. Experience is everything.

Funny but that isn't the same reasoning you are using with Smith.

Moreover, Smoove has the potential to be a great player 20/10, and his defense is underrated and with a little more coaching he could be a great defender too. You don't trade players with that much potential that you have locked in at a good price.

Smith has been in the league 5 years and has never sniffed 20/10. Since experience is everything and age is nothing then how can you say Smith has the potential to be a 20/10 player?

[dlpin]

I mean seriously. "Enough" improvement. The fact that he has improved EACH year and that he works on his game EVERY off season and that he strives to better himself is proof enough. What does he has to do, increase 5 pts and 3 rebs and 2 blks every year to prove that he is showing "enough" improvement. Who was the most consistent and ready Hawk in the playoffs this year. JJ-(in the voice of Chris Rock) HELL NO!!, Bibby-2nd most,-Horford (before injury)-nothing, Zaza-1 beast game and a couple of nice complementary games, Flip-3rd but did have boneheaded plays and more than Smith and has a even more "free reign" than JJ. Who was it? We all know, say it with me now!?! :thumbsupsmileyanim:

How has he improved each year? All his numbers are down this year. And I said he didnt show enough improvement. His rebounding is as bad as ever, his shot selection too.

But let's see his numbers on a per 36 minutes basis:

PPG:

9.7

11.3

16.4

17.2

15.6

Rebounds:

8

7.5

8.4

8.4

7.4

Offensive rebounds:

2.6

2.5

2.2

2

2

Blocks:

2.5

2.9

2.8

2.8

1.7

In fact, Smith's rebounds per minute numbers were 2nd worse for a starting power forward in the league.

He is good, but expecting him to be a super star (and a 25/10 guy is a superstar) is a bit much.

[buckeye242424]

Unless you're a Cavs fan, expecting 25 and 10 averages is too much of anyone.

[Diesel]

Diesel,

You kepp using the fact that Butler was 3rd or 4th option for the first 4 years of his career as an excuse for Butler ?

Why is that same excuse not relevant for Marvin ? He has never been more then the 3rd or 4th option in Atlanta. (Which is not at all uncommon for a player at 19,20,21, & 22 years of age.)

I see your agenda blinding you since you allow Butler to use the same excuse that you don't allow Marvin to use.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's a great difference of playing on Kobe's team right after the Shaq trade than playing with JJ. JJ is a ball hog but not on the level of that Kobe. That Kobe shot 20.1 FGA per game. Joe has yet to reach that. Also, Caron is an agressive player. Marvin is not. That's the main difference. A non-aggressive Marvin passes too much. That Caron Butler shot 12.8 FG per game. Marvin has yet to pass 11.5. In fact, this year.. with the Sf spot being all his.. he regressed in FGA per game. Marvin doesn't have it in him to be a scorer. There's nothing blinding here. If Marvin played like Caron, maybe you'd have something. But Marvin plays nothing like Caron, AHF is just trying to make them fit because their stats (when Caron was a ROOKIE and Marvin a 4TH YEAR PLAYER) are similar.

Had I done something that preposterous and tried to sell it here, I would have been flamed to eternity.

If I compared Al Horford's stats to KG's rookie Year stats and said that Al is going to be the next KG, I would get flamed to eternity. It's funny that AHF has immunity on this kind of foolishness and that I get flamed for calling him out on it?

[Diesel]

I'll agree to disagree on this assumption.

If that was the case, then I would expect you would expect greater improvement in the future from Luis Scola than from Andrew Bynum because Bynum has been in the league longer.

If age is the biggest factor you say: Bynum is younger. His upside is greater because of age.

If you're in the league and constantly on the IL.. .are you really in the league??

Over the past 2 seasons, Bynum has played a total of 85 games. As a young player, how much maturation do you expect if you never play and you're always injured?

Scola and Oden has "been in the league" the same amount of time. But whereas Scola has 164 games averaging 28 mpg.. Oden has 61 games averaging 21 mpg. Who do you expect to be farther along? Oden has all the potential in the world. He has very little NBA experience. And Like I told you before... Age doesn't matter as much as Experience.

Just to put the cheery on top of this.

Dwight Howard is 23 years old. Scola is 28 years old. Do you need to make any excuses for Howard? Does Howard's youth hinder him in any way? Howard has far more NBA experience than Scola. That's what has helped to make Howard so good. He already had potential.. He sured that potential up with NBA experience i.e. playing time.

Now your boy Marvin is young like Howard. He has played a lot of NBA minutes. He has experience. The problem you have is that with his NBA Experience, he's not much better than an average SF. That doesn't mean that you go look at rookie years of good Sfs and use that as a basis of comparison? He's been in the league playing for 4 years, starting for 3 of those. His age at this point is meaningless.

[Diesel]

Funny but that isn't the same reasoning you are using with Smith.

Smith has been in the league 5 years and has never sniffed 20/10. Since experience is everything and age is nothing then how can you say Smith has the potential to be a 20/10 player?

Before we get to Smoove. My reasoning on Smoove is that he's a good keeper for us because of his price. I also said, I wouldn't be so quick to project Smoove either way. Surely, I'm not pulling up Shawn Kemp Rookie stats and saying Smoove is close to Kemp.

However, as for my assertion that Smoove could be a 20/10 player...

Uhm... Last year, he was a 17/8 PF This is sniffing 20/10.

This year his numbers were down, but I think that's more a product of the high ankle strain and playing when he's not 100% than anything else.

We have watched Smoove's game evolving. He is starting to be less of a Sf minded player and he did take some time (not as much as I would have liked) to work on his inside scoring. If he continues down that path and if we can get a real PG in here, there's no telling what Smoove could be. I will say easily 20/10... based on aggressiveness and ability.

I don't see the same for Marvin. It's not a one size fits all here. Marvin doesn't show the aggressiveness to be much more than he is right now. For you who say he will automatically turn on the light switch and become more aggressive... eh, uhm.. this was his contract year. Most players in their contract year show something. Marvin showed that he's more willing to be a guy who waits on somebody to pass him the ball when he's wide open than to be a guy who makes something happen. To say that he's on the Caron Butler track is laughable and speaks more to a stathead than to anybody who has ever watched these two play.

[exodus]

Diesel "logic" says Smith has the potential to be a 20/10 player which would be a 28% increase in scoring and a 39% increase in rebounding from this year.

I find it hard to see how this projection makes sense coming from someone who says age is nothing and experience is everthing. Smith has been in the league 5 years and has played big minutes every year.

If i apply the same "logic" to Marvin that Diesel applied to Smith i could say that Marvin is potentially a 18/9 player.

[Diesel]

Diesel "logic" says Smith has the potential to be a 20/10 player which would be a 28% increase in scoring and a 39% increase in rebounding from this year.

I find it hard to see how this projection makes sense coming from someone who says age is nothing and experience is everthing. Smith has been in the league 5 years and has played big minutes every year.

If i apply the same "logic" to Marvin that Diesel applied to Smith i could say that Marvin is potentially a 18/9 player.

From this year... the year of the high ankle sprain?

Good one Exodus!!!

:thumbsupsmileyanim:

[exodus]

From this year... the year of the high ankle sprain?

Good one Exodus!!!

:thumbsupsmileyanim:

Smith hurt his ankle in the beginning of the year. It wasn't a yearlong injury. Smith averaged 7 rebounds per game in April and 7.5 rebounds per game in March.

His best rebounding month was actually january. Do you think his ankle was less of a problem in january than it was at the end of the season?

The ankle sprain didn't stop him from shooting a career best 49% from the field, did it? If Smith could shoot significantly better from the field then why couldn't he score more points?

What you don't seem to grasp is that it is much easier to put up numbers on a bad team than on a good team.