Merged: Celtics shopping Allen and Rondo

[NJHAWK]

But the reason why I think a deal like this would work is yea CP3 could be the top pg of this era but Rondo Has shown that he could be in the top 5 of that discussion. The Celtics get a obvious upgrade but the Hornets get a slight downgrade and cap relief. They have no choice in the matter, they don't have nearly enough talent to package with those bad deals and are too successful as is to get a high draft pick. The Hornets will not win a championship as currently constructed and could be utterly bankrupt in 2 years just waiting these deals out. A deal like this saves them in the short run and gives them a rebuilding block in addition to cap space to start their future around.

Wow you are sure high on Rondo calling him one of the big 3 and a top 5 pg. He gets to NO and somebody actually guards him and I think Hornet fans like Hotlanta will want to hang their owner.

[Diesel]

Before we let the rumor die too quickly...

I'm a meet guy. I like to see the meat behind the rumor. Did anybody catch this:

about Rondo (On the Record)...

On the record we have an added wrinkle - one that we thought to be highly unlikely until we found it reported with a quote attributed to Celtics GM Danny Ainge. It seems the Celtics are willing to package Rajon Rondo with Allen to make the right deal happen

"He's stubborn," Ainge told ESPN's Jackie MacMullen. "He doesn't always take direction well. He's very bright and knows what he needs to do to be successful. But sometimes he doesn't understand what the team needs to be successful."

Doc Rivers expressed similar sentiments, which he directed at Rondo himself earlier this season.

"Do you know your teammates hate playing with you? ... The point guard has to be the guy that brings energy to the team. You can't be the guy that sucks it away. Your moodiness is affecting us. Change it."

At the same time, Rondo has guys like Paul Pierce and Kendrick Perkins saying he's their leader and they believe in him. And while there is a great deal to be said for patience and seeing if Rondo will improve as much next season as he did in 2008-09, there is certainly a lot of negativity coming from the decision-makers - enough to fuel trade speculation.

If Rondo is a guy who the Celtics perceive as being a problem down the road.. and maybe a guy that they would have problems resigning, then maybe they would move him.

These on the record quotes are good MEAT.

Joe and Mo for Rondo, Allen, and 2010 First.

[Wurider05]

Diesel--That is probably the best trade idea that you have ever came up with. It absolutely awesome. I know that Ray RAy is getting long on the tooth but I wanted him here years ago when he was a free agent. We have Marv, Smoove and Horf who can pick up more of the offensive load.

[dlpin]

If KG was healthy, the Celtics would be in the finals again this year. They owned the magic with KG in the line up. Add a healthy KG, a healthy Powe and an MLE player, and the celtics are title contenders again. There is absolutely no way that celtics trade away 2/5 of that team.

Those quotes come from April and before that. Given his evolution during the playoffs, that is even less likely.

[MaceCase]

Wow you are sure high on Rondo calling him one of the big 3 and a top 5 pg. He gets to NO and somebody actually guards him and I think Hornet fans like Hotlanta will want to hang their owner.

Considering he just damn near averaged a triple double for a KG less Boston team helping lead that team out of the first round and to 7 games against the eventual ECF champs, I'd say Rondo is pretty good. Could you give me the top 5 young PGs in the league? I'll help you

Paul

Parker

Deron

Then from here who rounds out the top 5? Devin Harris? Jameer? Derrick Rose? Mike Conley?

You don't think Rondo is in the discussion if not better than some of those guys?

I don't know hotlanta but if he's a NOLA fan I hope he doesn't mind watching the Hornets when they start playing in Kansas City or get renamed the Sonics because in this economy with an already weak infrastructure in their city Mr. Shinn is going to have to make a business decision.

Fortunetly a move of Paul\Peja for Allen/Rondo would make both business and basketball sense if it was to happen.

[Frenzy]

what would you guys think about having Rondo? Apparently, it looks like the Celtics are shopping him

[Diesel]

what would you guys think about having Rondo? Apparently, it looks like the Celtics are shopping him

Well, we have been talking about it... However, a new wrinkle...

I have the whole quote from Danny Ainge berfore Game 7 Celtics-Orlando...

"Rondo's a very complex person in a lot of ways because you see this great competitor, you see a kid that works on his game," said Danny Ainge, general manager of the Celtics. "Sometimes, I don't want to say he's misunderstood, but he could make life easier on himself by not being so stubborn. But that stubbornness makes him really good."

I listen to Rondo in the interview and he admits that he's a sore loser and wants to win at everything he do. It's a trait of Michael Jordan... but at the same time, I think it's a trait of his buddy Josh Smith.

I think Ainge would deal Rondo for the right price. Ainge doesn't care about Stats... I think he sees a guy who's a good basketball player but a very bad people person. Very similar to Josh Smith.

Here's a little more:

She (his mother) was the one person who could cut through her son's tough-mindedness.

"If it was otherwise, I probably wouldn't have played sports," said Rondo. "I tried to quit high school basketball a couple times."

As a high school freshman, Rondo was suspended from 14 of 28 games for tardiness, missed practices, and study hall absences. Bibby said he "didn't know which Rajon was going to come to practice" or if he would show up.

He tried to reason with his star point guard. Then he tried to run him ragged as punishment. Nothing left an impression. Finally, Bibby benched Rondo whenever he didn't care enough or work hard enough.

At Kentucky, Tubby Smith repeatedly asked for patient play - wait for the play to unfold, for the game to come to you. But patience was far from Rondo's mind. He was in a rush to get to the next level, and it didn't matter much to him whether his teammates could keep up.

"He'd want his teammates to run with him," said Smith. "I would tell him, 'Rajon you've got to slow down because you're just so far in front sometimes. It's like a relay. You've got to receive the baton in the exchange zone or we're disqualified.' "

Finally, an exasperated Smith benched the sophomore standout for six games. Rondo was simply not playing within the Kentucky system, yearning for open-court freedom and believing he could rely on natural athleticism. Truth was, the deliberate style of Kentucky basketball never really suited Rondo or his game. The NBA was a better fit.

After doing some reading about Rondo, I don't deny that Ainge would trade him. I think that Doc is probably tired of changing his system to suite Rondo. Rondo may play and have allstar stats, but his impatience is something that is a red flag.

[Diesel]

I was reading a Boston Herald Article and found this quote from Doc Rivers....

“That’s a tough one,” said Rivers. “I’d say we have to get a (center) first, and we have to get a small forward. Then there’s the point guard situation.”

Doc is talking about what the Cs need.

The author of the piece took "the point guard situation" to mean who will back up Rondo. However, what if he meant that he wants another PG in place of Rondo?

IS there a way that we can trade Boston Bibby for Rondo? I know we'd have to take back some filler to make it work and I'd be willing to take back Scalebrine... ANd I would even through in this years 1st.

Bibby (SNT), 1st for Rondo, Scalebrine.

Who is in?

[Diesel]

If Boston does make the big trade, I think it will be:

Allen, Rondo for Stoudamire, Barbosa (as reported on Phoenix Radio). It makes some sense. The only problem is KG. WHy would you get Stoudamire if you have KG and Pierce? If there was a third team with a SG to give.. that would make all the sense in the world then?

Allen/Rondo to Phoenix.

Stoudamire to Milwaukee.

Barbosa/Redd/#10 to Boston?

[dlpin]

I was reading a Boston Herald Article and found this quote from Doc Rivers....

Doc is talking about what the Cs need.

The author of the piece took "the point guard situation" to mean who will back up Rondo. However, what if he meant that he wants another PG in place of Rondo?

IS there a way that we can trade Boston Bibby for Rondo? I know we'd have to take back some filler to make it work and I'd be willing to take back Scalebrine... ANd I would even through in this years 1st.

Bibby (SNT), 1st for Rondo, Scalebrine.

Who is in?

The PG situation means the back up to Rondo, and that is it. Doc hates House playing as a PG and only uses him as a SG because his ball handling is suspect and other teams pressure and trap him.

There is absolutely no chance at all the celtics would trade him for anything less than a super star. They won't even offer the MLE for Bibby, much less Rondo.

[Diesel]

The PG situation means the back up to Rondo, and that is it. Doc hates House playing as a PG and only uses him as a SG because his ball handling is suspect and other teams pressure and trap him.

There is absolutely no chance at all the celtics would trade him for anything less than a super star. They won't even offer the MLE for Bibby, much less Rondo.

You are a strange Celtics fans. Many of the Celtics fans that I have read are saying that it's Rondo's fault that the Celtics Loss in the playoffs. That Orlando exposed that if you play off Rondo and force him to become a shooter, you can beat the Celtics. Doc doesn't seem to be the biggest Rondo fan either. Throughout the playoffs, he basically was calling Marbury his guy. Guaranteeing that Marbury would win Boston a game before it was over. I think Marbury did. Even Boston's reporters (Bob Ryan) to be specific talked about how much better the second team played better than Rondo. Now you can blame it all on KG if you wish, but the truth is that the Celtics could be playing tonight if Rondo would have come to play.

Now with the rumors, you hear about Stubborn Rondo. I don't disbelieve it. I wouldn't be shocked at all to see him moved. You are right though, he will be moved for a star or allstar (not superstar). No team will give up a superstar for Rondo. Not a superstar that is not on the blocks already. Maybe for Bosh or Stoudamire but not for anybody whoose name isn't being passed around.

[dlpin]

You are a strange Celtics fans. Many of the Celtics fans that I have read are saying that it's Rondo's fault that the Celtics Loss in the playoffs. That Orlando exposed that if you play off Rondo and force him to become a shooter, you can beat the Celtics. Doc doesn't seem to be the biggest Rondo fan either. Throughout the playoffs, he basically was calling Marbury his guy. Guaranteeing that Marbury would win Boston a game before it was over. I think Marbury did. Even Boston's reporters (Bob Ryan) to be specific talked about how much better the second team played better than Rondo. Now you can blame it all on KG if you wish, but the truth is that the Celtics could be playing tonight if Rondo would have come to play.

Now with the rumors, you hear about Stubborn Rondo. I don't disbelieve it. I wouldn't be shocked at all to see him moved. You are right though, he will be moved for a star or allstar (not superstar). No team will give up a superstar for Rondo. Not a superstar that is not on the blocks already. Maybe for Bosh or Stoudamire but not for anybody whoose name isn't being passed around.

?

No celtics fan I know thinks he is the reason the celts lost. No KG is the reason the celtics lost. Marbury his guy? That Marbury who averaged less than 12 minutes a game in the playoffs?

Rondo led the celtics in minutes and for the first time in his career actually had last second plays drawn for him. Heck, Rondo these playoffs was a pleasant surprise.

Fact is that Rondo is cheap this year and fits the celtics like a glove. There is no similar point guard for the same price out there, so any deal the celtics would do with rondo would be after this year.

And what "rumors" about him being stubborn? Here is the original piece where Ainge said that

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/200...ge=Rondo-090423

It was a piece praising him.

In that same piece, you also have Doc saying:

"You have the keys to the team," Rivers told him. "Just go out and play."

Pierce said:

""He earned our trust," Pierce confirmed. "When you think about it, [his job] is probably a little intimidating. I can't imagine being a second- or third-year player and trying to divvy up the ball between three All-Stars.""

The story is about how they had to work hard on him to change his attitude, and how it changed. Do you think they would work with him 3 years to mold him into something they want and then drop him?

Fact is, no celtics fan I know would ever consider Rondo for Bibby a good trade. Rondo can be frustrating at times because his shot sucks, but that is it. Is he untouchable? No, because no one is. Ainge told Red that he should have traded Bird and McHale after 87. But Rondo is not being shopped around, and it would take at least a current all star level player for Rondo to leave the celtics.

There is a reason that rumor led to a column with this title:

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/The_Basel..._time_and_space

The World's Dumbest Trade Rumor Marches On, Ignores Time and Space

And here is what Ryan last said about Rondo:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/ce...ou_do_the_math/

"The primary reason, of course, is Rajon Rondo.

We can table the matter of just where Rondo ranks in the NBA point guard hierarchy. What matters is that he is a truly electrifying player, and we have to assume he isn't going anywhere. The Celtics must pay up now, and how can they not, after what Rondo has done against Chicago and Orlando?"

"So let us say this about Rondo: In terms of sheer entertainment value, contemporary Celtics fans may be getting the best deal. How can anyone who has been privileged to have seen all the aforementioned greats look any young Celtics fan in the eye who may not have seen any of them and say that Rondo isn't the most fun to watch of them all?"

And this one day after being eliminated by Orlando.

Everyone in Boston loves him, and people would be out on the streets if they traded him for anything other than an all star.

Edited June 7, 2009 by dlpin

[Bahamut]

Bibby (SNT), 1st for Rondo, Scalebrine.

Who is in?

And Bibby gets booed every night LOL, serves him right! :stirthepot:

[Diesel]

?

No celtics fan I know thinks he is the reason the celts lost. No KG is the reason the celtics lost. Marbury his guy? That Marbury who averaged less than 12 minutes a game in the playoffs?

Let's start off with the fans first....

The question is how the team backs up Rondo next season, and Rivers won’t rule out bringing back Stephon Marbury.

“He’d be much better” Rivers said of Marbury. “A full training camp would make a big difference for him. First of all this year, Steph needed to play in the NBA again.”

A backup also won’t be enough. Rondo, who tailed off at the end of the Orlando series, continued to have a major weakness exposed.

“What happened to Rajon came from the way (Orlando) played him,” said Rivers. “Orlando made him the player who had to beat them. They took away Ray and Paul and put it on (Rondo).

“The playoffs will always be the toughest part for Rondo, because they’ll always put it on him to make shots. But he’ll grow from it.”...

Rondo can't shoot. Until he can shoot we're always going to struggle to score because teams will cut off Pierce and Ray and Rondo will have to beat them with a jumper and he can't do it.

That's what Doc is saying. If he ever does develop a jumper then it'll make the C's that much harder to stop. .....

But Particle Man, that really wasn't the extent of the problem. It wasn't simply that they didn't defend Rondo, it was that they didn't really leave the paint. They were usually willing to concede jumpers to Baby, Perk and Rondo. Baby was the only one able to have moderate success in that strategy. If we had KG, we could have subbed Perk out and that strategy wouldn't work anymore because Rondo would get in the paint and have a viable big man option to dish to. Rondo's shooting is a major flaw when compounded with one or two other non-shooters/scorer on the floor.

Also the double off Rondo strategy only really worked when Pierce or Allen were iso-ing, a strategy that I think will be on its way out as Rondo improves, KG returns and Paul and Ray age another year. ......

Rondo didnt have a coming out party - he was exposed. The blue print of how to bother the Celtics is now out there. Doc knows it. Danny knows it. The fans know it. Your the only one that's confused.

It's pretty simple. Lay off Rondo and try to make him a shot maker and shooter instead of a playmaker and fast break stud. Its not easy to do but its pretty effective. You get to play 5 on 4 basketball.. .....

Next let's talk about Stubborn Rondo. I suggest that you watch the video too... In his own words, it's amazing how this guy thinks...

"Rondo's a very complex person in a lot of ways because you see this great competitor, you see a kid that works on his game," said Danny Ainge, general manager of the Celtics. "Sometimes, I don't want to say he's misunderstood, but he could make life easier on himself by not being so stubborn. But that stubbornness makes him really good."

From Hoopsworld.

"On the record we have an added wrinkle - one that we thought to be highly unlikely until we found it reported with a quote attributed to Celtics GM Danny Ainge. It seems the Celtics are willing to package Rajon Rondo with Allen to make the right deal happen

"He's stubborn," Ainge told ESPN's Jackie MacMullen. "He doesn't always take direction well. He's very bright and knows what he needs to do to be successful. But sometimes he doesn't understand what the team needs to be successful."

Doc Rivers expressed similar sentiments, which he directed at Rondo himself earlier this season.

"Do you know your teammates hate playing with you? ... The point guard has to be the guy that brings energy to the team. You can't be the guy that sucks it away. Your moodiness is affecting us. Change it."

Finally, let's talk about Bob Ryan.....

For 3 1/2 periods, they simply could not string together enough stops to provide legitimate competition for an Orlando team that seemed to have too many people capable of scoring at will. Trading hoops at 9-11 points down won't cut it, and that was about the best the Celtics could do until Doc Rivers made a fateful decision with 4:55 remaining. That's when he replaced Stephon Marbury, Eddie House, and Brian Scalabrine with Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, and Kendrick Perkins.

That may sound like the logical thing to do, but the fact is those guys, Marbury in particular, were not playing all that badly. This was the Marbury night Rivers had been predicting for two months. "He'll win us a playoff game," Doc kept insisting, and if Marbury did not necessarily win it, he made sure it would not be lost by packaging 12 points into the first 6:05 of the fourth quarter

[HAWKSFAN89]

I could understand New Orleans actually taking the deal. Allen is an expiring which would give them cap relief that they desperately need and Rondo is a young point that's much cheaper and could offset some of Paul's production. It would be a hard decision but it certainly works for both sides.

It would be a stupid deal because Ray Allen is getting old, and Rondo isn't on the same level as Chris Paul..... I don't see NO giving CP3 up.

[dlpin]

Let's start off with the fans first....

Next let's talk about Stubborn Rondo. I suggest that you watch the video too... In his own words, it's amazing how this guy thinks...

From Hoopsworld.

Finally, let's talk about Bob Ryan.....

So your sources for all of this was a couple of posts from realgm, one quote that was part of a story praising the guy, and one sentence from one column about one game in the playoffs?

This is all BS, and the fact that you are quoting some random guy from realgm is proof.

The biggest story on the celtics this post-season was how good Rondo has become.

The whole thing about Marbury is BS. Rondo led the team in minutes this playoffs, Marbury played well in one game against the magic. So one quote about Marbury playing well in one game against the magic equates Bob Ryan saying Rondo is the reason Boston lost against the Magic? Really? Nevermind that in the following column, which I posted, he says that the celtics future is bright and should remain competitive after the big 3 retire because of Rondo?

As far as Marbury on the celtics, here is what Doc had to say on it:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/ce...s_pierce_a.html

"With Baby, it will probably come down to what he can get on the open market," Rivers said. "With Steph, it will probably come down to what we can get on the open market."

So the guy plays Marbury 12 minutes a game, yanks him from the game even the one time he is playing well, and basically says that the only way Marbury will be back with the celtics is if boston can't get anyone better on the free agent market, and you claim that he is in fact ready to dump the celtics' best player in the last playoffs because of that?

As far as Rondo being stubborn, he has been that way since he got in the league. So Boston would stick with him when he was a sucky pg, but then deal him for pennies on the dollar just as his attitude improved and he almost averaged a triple double in 14 playoff games? Really?

Let me spell this out for you: boston has denied any rumors of trading him. The only reason you don't see doc and ainge falling over themselves to praise him is because he is about to negotiate an extension with the celtics.

He will not be traded, especially not for Mike Bibby. If the Celtics did this trade, or the other Ray/Rondo for JJ, Ainge would be run out of town.

[MaceCase]

It would be a stupid deal because Ray Allen is getting old, and Rondo isn't on the same level as Chris Paul..... I don't see NO giving CP3 up.

Do people bother taking the time to read my posts before they quote them? The whole purpose of my posts is that if NOLA is facing doomsday that their best player would become a casuality and this would be the best possible trade for them if said armaggedon were to happen. They could care less about Allen getting old all they see is him as a name to sell some tickets in the short term and a huge expiring deal that comes off their cap. Rondo and probably some other pick(s) would just give them some semblance of a player(s) to now rebuild around. Stop with the mundane reactions already and always consider that the NBA is a business first. Everyone on here knows that would be a crazy trade but if a franchise is facing financial problems well guess what, a deal like that happens. Pretend you never heard the phrase "fire sale" before or superstars changing teams. :rolleyes:

[Diesel]

Let me spell this out for you: boston has denied any rumors of trading him. The only reason you don't see doc and ainge falling over themselves to praise him is because he is about to negotiate an extension with the celtics.

He will not be traded, especially not for Mike Bibby. If the Celtics did this trade, or the other Ray/Rondo for JJ, Ainge would be run out of town.

Hey Dlpin... I was wondering...

Do you still believe the BS you were pushing?

Tony Allen admits that Rondo is hard to coach.

I guess we wont hear from you for a while?