Kudos to Billy Knight and Rick Sund

[Sasquatch]

The team isn't going to win a title without more than one All-Star (an average one at that).

The records of the Jazz and Hornets since we drafted Marvin >>>>> the Hawks record.

Stockton and Malone never won a title. I guess you wouldn't want them on the team.

More non-sense.

If we actually win a title, Crawford and Smoove will probably make the all-star team.

This incessant babble about a glorified popularity contest is fruitless.

Name one general manager that brags about how many of his players became all-stars.

He would look like a fool.

Why?

Because it is a moral victory!

It means nothing.

By the way, there is no requirement that you have a certain amount of all-stars before you can win a title.

As for the records of the jazz and hornets since we drafted Marvin?

Another moral victory.

Where are they today...

They are not even a part of any serious discussion

Just looking at them makes me glad to be a hawks fan.

Of course it would be different if they had actually won a ring during that time... but they didn't

So you have to produce some pointless statistic...

[Sasquatch]

Too bad championships aren't handed out after the first five games of the year... Cool off you to brush off four years of superior play by the Hornets in favor of the last five games... that definitely proves your point that BK did a great job in not drafting Paul. :laughing5:

Anyway, the Hornets record this year has nothing to do with Paul's play and everything to do with NO's front office and the fact they spent 25 million + a year on Peja and Emeka Okafor/Tyson Chandler. Paul is playing like the best basketball player on the planet. The problem with NO is that they have absolutely no talent outside of David West and Okafor, and even those two players are not that great.( No way David West ever makes an All Star team on another team without the best PG feeding him the ball.)

You can lose sleep over a guy that has not won a championship if you choose.

I wont

I am always mystified as to how BK can take so much heat for not drafting a guy that has not won jack, yet the guys that traded Farve never get ridiculed (listen for the chorus of synchronized excuses)

Always mystified as to how the other gm's that did not draft Paul or Brandon Roy never get this nonsense

I'm sorry...

Is there some one out there that did not draft Kobe? Has Kobe won a ring? Oh more than one you say? Who is getting dogged over that?

Has Amare Stoudamire been to an all-star game? Really?

How about Gilbert Arenas?

Did Ben Wallace go to an All-star game?

Who didn't draft Tony Parker? Has he been to an all-star game? Has blood been shed?

Where was Ginobli drafted? Can you here me now?

Jameer Nelson made it to the all-star game... What gm is getting bashed over that...

I can fill this page with scores of examples like this

The point is

This debate is pointless.

We have a good team and as much as people hate to give credit, BK built it.

What did Pete Babcock do? Where are his hate threads?

Fact is...

This is more about hate than anything.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Sasquatch

[buckeye242424]

Paul >> Marvin + Horford

It isnt' even debatable. Marvin and Horford are role players that are easy to replace. All-Star pgs are not so easy to come by.

Yes it is. Today. Pay attention to details. Why would we want Chris Paul, Mike Bibby, Jamal Crawford, and Jeff Teague on the team. Why would we give up our starting SF, and C? My point was, if that trade was made today, there's no way it improves our team. We would get killed inside worse than we are now, and we would be overloaded on the perimeter.

Edited November 6, 2009 by buckeye242424

[Buzzard]

More non-sense.

If we actually win a title, Crawford and Smoove will probably make the all-star team.

This incessant babble about a glorified popularity contest is fruitless.

Name one general manager that brags about how many of his players became all-stars.

He would look like a fool.

Why?

Because it is a moral victory!

It means nothing.

By the way, there is no requirement that you have a certain amount of all-stars before you can win a title.

Moral victory? That is what you say...most GMs would say they had a very successfull draft when one of their own picks makes the all star-team. And it is not some rule, it is just a historical fact. Anything is possible in sports. A team like Dayton could win the national championship this year. Not likely but possible. The big difference between NCAA and NBA championships is you don't just have to beat North Carolina, Duke, Kansas etc once, you have to beat them three out five or four out of seven times to get past them.

All-star status equals talent and it takes a lot of talent in the NBA to win a championship. Surely you understand that concept. If you don't, I can't explain it any better; so maybe someone else can.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Buzzard

[Atlantaholic]

You can lose sleep over a guy that has not won a championship if you choose.

I wont

I am always mystified as to how BK can take so much heat for not drafting a guy that has not won jack, yet the guys that traded Farve never get ridiculed (listen for the chorus of synchronized excuses)

Always mystified as to how the other gm's that did not draft Paul or Brandon Roy never get this nonsense

Huh? How many championships have Bk's draftees won? How many All Star appearances have they had?. You are saying Paul is not good because he hasn't won a championship, but neither have we, so WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

New Orleans has been better than us as a team since drafting Paul, EVERY YEAR. Paul has outplayed any player on our team EVERY YEAR he has been in the league. Sund would trip over his own trousers if he found any way to get Paul. Every GM in the league would jump at the chance, especially if the asking price is Horf and Williams (which would NEVER be even close to plausible... such is Paul's superiority over BK's fun bunch)

I guess you wouldn't trade Horford and Williams for either, Chris Bosh, or Lebron James, or Dwight Howard, or Dirk Nawitski, or Deron Williams, or Karl Malone, or Charles Barkley, or Patrick Ewing right?

Championships are not a requirement for being a great player. Kevin Garnett was a cavemans pubic hair away from NEVER sniffing a championship until Danny Ainge shocked the world and traded all his young players for All Stars. (I guess he understood the importance of adding All Stars instead of keeping average young talent). Chris Paul will win a championship if and when he plays with a team that puts some pieces in place that are better than average. He led a team of mediocre players to the second seed of the west two years ago, and has only played better since.

Also, I don't know what any other teams have to do with BK. I'm sure Charlotte's management gets LAMBASTED on a daily basis by their fans, as do the fans of all the other teams in the NBA that suck. Unfortunately under BK we were definitely one of those teams.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Atlantaholic

[buckeye242424]

You wouldn't trade two role players for the best PG of our generation? Ok.

Maybe this year we wouldn't be as good (which is debatable, since our starting lineup would be Paul, Crawford, JJ, Josh, Zaza, with Bibby as a sixth man)

You are talking about two sure fire All Stars in that lineup (maybe even three if Crawford plays the way he has been playing), with a potential MVP.

Even if it wouldn't make us better in the short term due to our thin frontcourt, having Paul on our Team would be something we can build around for the next decade. We are not winning a championship this year with Horford and Smith, so your hesitation in making a move for a sure fire future Hall of Famer is puzzling, and definite homerism.

If JJ walked next year and we had Paul with us we would have a legitimate shot at getting Bosh, Wade or even Lebron James. (it would require some sallary juggling but all of those players would be salivating at the thought of playing alongside Paul). In fact as long as our GM is not as incompetant as NO's GM and handcuffs us by signing Peja for 14 million a year, we would have our pick of the best FA's year after year after year.

You're worried about the future when we are having success now? What happens when we give up Horf, our center - best froncourt player on a thin line - and our starting SF for a point guard. I don't care if he's the best. It makes the Bibby signing stupid, our number one draft pick in Teague stupid, and the signing of Crawford questionable. Not to mention we would be starting Zaza and Craws...which brings Mo Evans playing huge minutes. Not a chance. Horf and Marv for Paul with the way our team is set up now is not the correct direction.

[exodus]

Yes it is. Today. Pay attention to details. Why would we want Chris Paul, Mike Bibby, Jamal Crawford, and Jeff Teague on the team. Why would we give up our starting SF, and C? My point was, if that trade was made today, there's no way it improves our team. We would get killed inside worse than we are now, and we would be overloaded on the perimeter.

No it is not debatable, or even close. Paul is a major star at a key position. Bibby is aging and slow. Teague is nothing but a maybe he will be an ok player some day. Crawford is a scorer off the bench.

None of these guys are stars. Paul is and stars are needed to win titles. Role players aren't tough to find. We got Crawford for next to nothing. Ditto Bibby.

Edited November 6, 2009 by exodus

[exodus]

Huh? How many championships have Bk's draftees won? How many All Star appearances have they had?. You are saying Paul is not good because he hasn't won a championship, but neither have we, so WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

New Orleans has been better than us as a team since drafting Paul, EVERY YEAR. Paul has outplayed any player on our team EVERY YEAR he has been in the league. Sund would trip over his own trousers if he found any way to get Paul. Every GM in the league would jump at the chance, especially if the asking price is Horf and Williams (which would NEVER be even close to plausible... such is Paul's superiority over BK's fun bunch)

I guess you wouldn't trade Horford and Williams for either, Chris Bosh, or Lebron James, or Dwight Howard, or Dirk Nawitski, or Deron Williams, or Karl Malone, or Charles Barkley, or Patrick Ewing right?

Championships are not a requirement for being a great player. Kevin Garnett was a cavemans pubic hair away from NEVER sniffing a championship until Danny Ainge shocked the world and traded all his young players for All Stars. (I guess he understood the importance of adding All Stars instead of keeping average young talent). Chris Paul will win a championship if and when he plays with a team that puts some pieces in place that are better than average. He led a team of mediocre players to the second seed of the west two years ago, and has only played better since.

Also, I don't know what any other teams have to do with BK. I'm sure Charlotte's management gets LAMBASTED on a daily basis by their fans, as do the fans of all the other teams in the NBA that suck. Unfortunately under BK we were definitely one of those teams.

I was going to respond but i don't think i can improve on that.

[Sasquatch]

You are saying Paul is not good because he hasn't won a championship

See...

This is where the conversation ends...

You won't hesitate to make up something and attribute it to some one...

I never said this...

I never insinuated it...

I can't debate with you when you have such a dearth of credibility

[exodus]

See...

This is where the conversation ends...

You won't hesitate to make up something and attribute it to some one...

I never said this...

I never insinuated it...

I can't debate with you when you have such a dearth of credibility

This is a direct quote.

You can lose sleep over a guy that has not won a championship if you choose.

I wont

I am always mystified as to how BK can take so much heat for not drafting a guy that has not won jack,

The reason BK takes so much heat is because Paul, Deron and Roy are all better than any player on our roster. The fact that they haven't won a championship is irrelevant. Paul and Deron have won FAR more games than Marvin.

The Hawks haven't even won a second round playoff game but that doesn't stop you from heaping praise on BK.

Edited November 6, 2009 by exodus

[dlpin]

4-1 is a good start. But are people really talking about dynasty? Really?

If the hawks ever win a championship with the pieces that BK put together after half a decade of lousy teams, people will reevaluate him. But the fact is, it seems extremely unlikely that the hawks will even make it to a final in the next 2 to 3 years without some major additions.

Edited November 6, 2009 by dlpin

[Sasquatch]

This is a direct quote.

You are right.

That is a direct quote.

Show me where in this direct quote that I said they were not good players.

The fact is you are not trying to have a constructive debate.

You are just trying to agitate.

According to the rules that is not acceptable.

Do me a favor and just move on dude.

[exodus]

You are right.

That is a direct quote.

Show me where in this direct quote that I said they were not good players.

The fact is you are not trying to have a constructive debate.

You are just trying to agitate.

According to the rules that is not acceptable.

Do me a favor and just move on dude.

When you said you aren't going to lose sleep over a player that hasn't won jack, I think most people would take that to mean that he isn't that good. I don't see any other way to interpret that.

Paul >> than any player on our roster. That is a fact.

Paul has won many more games than marvin has so it is pretty dumb to say he hasn't won squat. What have BK's teams ever won?

Edited November 6, 2009 by exodus

[Atlantaholic]

When you said you aren't going to lose sleep over a player that hasn't won jack, I think most people would take that to mean that he isn't that good. I don't see any other way to interpret that.

Paul >> than any player on our roster. That is a fact.

Paul has won many more games than marvin has so it is pretty dumb to say he hasn't won squat. What have BK's teams ever won?

I hate topics like this... All it does is remind me how much we screwed up by not taking Paul. All our fans complain about the media not letting go of the Paul fiasco but our own fans start topics like this. If you want to be in denial and pretend that throughout 11 straight loosing seasons our management was peachy, that is fine, but let the rest of us put the past behind us for the love of God.

[gsuteke]

Here is the undeniable trump card in this argument.

Billy Knight is still unemployed.

Edited November 6, 2009 by gsuteke

[thefloydian]

You can lose sleep over a guy that has not won a championship if you choose.

I wont

I am always mystified as to how BK can take so much heat for not drafting a guy that has not won jack, yet the guys that traded Farve never get ridiculed (listen for the chorus of synchronized excuses)

Always mystified as to how the other gm's that did not draft Paul or Brandon Roy never get this nonsense

I'm sorry...

Is there some one out there that did not draft Kobe? Has Kobe won a ring? Oh more than one you say? Who is getting dogged over that?

Has Amare Stoudamire been to an all-star game? Really?

How about Gilbert Arenas?

Did Ben Wallace go to an All-star game?

Who didn't draft Tony Parker? Has he been to an all-star game? Has blood been shed?

Where was Ginobli drafted? Can you here me now?

Jameer Nelson made it to the all-star game... What gm is getting bashed over that...

I can fill this page with scores of examples like this

The point is

This debate is pointless.

We have a good team and as much as people hate to give credit, BK built it.

What did Pete Babcock do? Where are his hate threads?

Fact is...

This is more about hate than anything.

Weren't you the same guy who was flipping out about a preseason game? And now this? Please stop posting. Please.

[sillent]

Moral victory? That is what you say...most GMs would say they had a very successfull draft when one of their own picks makes the all star-team. And it is not some rule, it is just a historical fact. Anything is possible in sports. A team like Dayton could win the national championship this year. Not likely but possible. The big difference between NCAA and NBA championships is you don't just have to beat North Carolina, Duke, Kansas etc once, you have to beat them three out five or four out of seven times to get past them.

All-star status equals talent and it takes a lot of talent in the NBA to win a championship. Surely you understand that concept. If you don't, I can't explain it any better; so maybe someone else can.

So I guess we just don't have the talent. Man!! I hope the other NBA teams don't hear about this or they might not let us win anymore.

Shaq,Karl Malone,Kobe,Payton I'm sorry but because you didn't have talent a ring was just not going to come your way.

Championships take cohesiveness!! Everybody has talent in the NBA but they have to play the role that best suits the team in order to win. Good team chemistry and strategy along with someone(s) who knows how to take over/win wins Championships. Whether that someone just has the confidence to hit the big shot(Steve Kerr) or someone that refuses to be stopped by the defense(MJ). But again we just don't have talent which means no all-stars which means no Championship. Funk!!

[Buzzard]

We have a good team and as much as people hate to give credit, BK built it.

What did Pete Babcock do? Where are his hate threads?

Fact is...

This is more about hate than anything.

You probably have not been here long enough to read the Babcock hate but it is here and much longer than BKs. You opened this can of worms and now you complain about not getting the post you want to hear. Sorry dude but its a democracy.

BK built this team and we are pretty good. No one is arguing that point. What most of us are aurguing for is to be better; and we clearly had chances to draft all-star caliber players and better over all players than Chilz, Marvin, Acie, and Shelden.

You don't have to agree with those of us that think this. As you can see no ones opinion is being swayed; and if differing opinions piss you off to the point of not wanting to hear them, you should not have started this thread.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Buzzard

[sillent]

When you said you aren't going to lose sleep over a player that hasn't won jack, I think most people would take that to mean that he isn't that good. I don't see any other way to interpret that.

Paul >> than any player on our roster. That is a fact.

Paul has won many more games than marvin has so it is pretty dumb to say he hasn't won squat. What have BK's teams ever won?

Unless he has won the games that count. That goes for Paul, Deron, Roy, Foye and who ever else you want to throw out their then your debate is irrelevant. They are still in the same boat as BK's players in not winning a championship. But at least Marvin and Roy can boast that they have a team that is on the up rise because of the way their teams were constructed.

[Kimsey]

Back in O5 Knight could have traded the 2 pick(Marv) for Portland's 4th pick(Paul) and the very next years pick that turned out to be Roy.