Kudos to Billy Knight and Rick Sund

[AHF]

I feel like I am talking into the vacuum of space with the amount of discussion my posts have received from those who are arguing that Knight is an outstanding drafter of a GM.

[Sasquatch]

who said anything about "worshiping Walsh?" I mentioned people who drafted better. But this discussion is going nowhere given the absolute irrationality of some here. The day any other team takes a serious interest in hiring BK as a GM is the day I revisit the question of whether he was good or not.

Offer to cede accepted

It's been a pleasure...

You are an excellent rival.

"To whom does Calahorra belong... "

Edited November 13, 2009 by Sasquatch

[Sasquatch]

I feel like I am talking into the vacuum of space with the amount of discussion my posts have received from those who are arguing that Knight is an outstanding drafter of a GM.

Dude...

I was goin back and forth with this dlpin cat...

He's good...

got guts...

stays on topic..

Put his list of GM's out there while others were stalling and making excuses...

I saw that list of teams you put up...

We were looking at specific General Managers to try to establish some standard of measurement for individual GM's which I have never seen done in the BK hate parade...

Listing franchises is a little different...

For example, I do not think Danny Ainge drafted Chauncey Billups...

If you are going by franchises why stop a six... Why not do all of them... How do you compare the performance of a franchise and use it to establish a standard for an individual

B.T.W.

I did not say BK was an "outstanding" drafter.

I maintain that he did a good job and that the hateful rhetoric directed at him is unwarranted and baseless.

It is understandable if you reflect and wonder what if we had this player or that player...

I am sure the GM's themselves do that all the time...

It is quite another thing when you deny the productivity that you have in an effort to aggrandize that thing which you do not have

Edited November 13, 2009 by Sasquatch

[thefloydian]

Dude...

I was goin back and forth with this dlpin cat...

He's good...

got guts...

stays on topic..

Put his list of GM's out there while others were stalling and making excuses...

I saw that list of teams you put up...

We were looking at specific General Managers to try to establish some standard of measurement for individual GM's which I have never seen done in the BK hate parade...

Listing franchises is a little different...

For example, I do not think Danny Ainge drafted Chauncey Billups...

If you are going by franchises why stop a six... Why not do all of them... How do you compare the performance of a franchise and use it to establish a standard for an individual

Paragraphs...

are...

useful...

discursive...

units...

[Buzzard]

Paragraphs...

are...

useful...

discursive...

units...

Ya think? LMAO....great point! :clap:

[sillent]

I'm not exactly a BK hater but I hate his draft day decisions. I mean how can u argue with 8 lottery picks and 1......1 all star from those lottery picks. 1 out of 8 is pretty crappy, debating this is pretty ridicoulous.

Back to something my friend Sillent said........"Marvin and Bynum were picked for the future(Bynum has been in the league for a while now and still has not put up an impressive full season). Marvin is the same category except he has not had as many years in the league.??????????????????????????????????????????????? Can you show me where this is at? I hope that this was a typo or that you meant something totally different...............if not............... :cant believe:

Marvin is the same category except he has not had as many years in the league as Bynum."

Edited November 13, 2009 by sillent

[sillent]

And somehow you still won't acknowledge how little BK did with his lottery picks:

#2 + #3 + #5 + #6 + #11 = Marvin Williams (solid starter) and Al Horford (plus starter) and rights to Josh Childress (average starter/plus reserve)

If you keep hearing that point over and over it is because it is a pretty important one.

I would have more interest in this debate if people could at least acknowledge the legitimate points on either side.

Anyone who says that BK didn't draft some good to very good players is being delusional, IMO. There is no question that Josh Smith, Pau Gasol, and Al Horford are all plus to fringe All-Star players.

Anyone who says he got good value for his premium picks while GM of the Hawks is likewise delusional. It would be hard to get less than BK did for the lottery picks he had unless you are Pete Babcock.

Here are the last 5 lottery picks for a half dozen other franchises (only including picks made by those teams) and every one of them includes better or arguably better talent (personally, I rank BK's lottery picks above the Pistons but below the others):

Boston Celtics = Joe Johnson, Kedrick Brown???, Jerome Moiso???, Paul Pierce, Chauncey Billups

Chicago Bulls = Derrick Rose, Joakim Noah<Horford, Tyrus Thomas<Smoove, Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich

Cleveland Cavs = Luke Jackson???, Lebron James, Dejuan Wagner, Desagna Diop, Chris Mihm

Dallas Mavericks = Devin Harris, Etan Thomas???, Courtney Alexander???, Dirk Nowitzki, Samaki Walker???

Denver Nuggets = Carmelo Anthony, Nene Hilario, Nikoloz Tskitishvili, Raef Lafrenz, Keon Clark

Detroit Pistons = Darko Milicic???, Rodney White???, Mauteen Cleaves???, Bonzi Wells, Grant Hill

Besides the Bulls how many of these teams played and won together. You got a lot of question marks to answer.

[sillent]

First of a thanks.

There is no question that i am a card carrying BK and Childress hater. I was saying the Hawks should let childress walk months before he actually did.

Having said that sure childress is good enough to play in the NBA. After all Randolph Morris has an NBA contract. However he isn't good enough to get the money he wants here. He had to go overseas to get it. The guys drafted right after him which many of us wanted didn't have that problem.

Deng (with yearly salaries $10,365,000, $11,345,000, $12,325,000, $13,365,000, $14,275,000) and Iggy ( $12,200,000, $12,345,250, $13,531,750, $14,718,250, $15,904,750) didn't have to go overseas to get paid because they are much better than Childress and far more valuable to their teams.

Also i never had any problem giving BK credit for the JJ and Bibby trades.

As far as Deng and Iggy are concerned I always felt that year that it was some inside deal going on. BK must of had a deal to leave them on the board so they would not snatch Josh Smith as a desperation move. BK knew he wanted Smoove but it would have been very questionable to take him as a lottery pick. Childress was a good character guy with a lot of length and is a good system player(anti Iverson). Josh Childress the safe pick left a lot of desired players on the board which allowed the high risk high reward player(Josh Smith) to fall into our laps. NBA insiders know that GM's commute all the time especially on draft day. They want to get a feel of the consensus picks especially from the teams ahead of them or that have the same need/want.

[sillent]

BK's resume quick and easy. He takes a dysfunctional team Vancouver Grizzilies, Atlanta Hawks and he turns them into playoff teams via draft. He must be doing something right because if the team sticks with his core and philosophy(Teague and Jamal are BK type of players Big/Athletic Guards) they continue to get better(our Atlanta Hawks). Once they decide to go in another direction(Grizzilies), they go in another direction. BK's next venture will indeed be proof of this, it's just a question of who would give him the freedom to create his vision (I doubt New York gives him a try because they think Lebron will be their savior).

[dlpin]

via draft? yeah, because the reason the Hawks have been to the playoffs was because of horford and marvin, not JJ and Bibby...

And the grizzlies only went to the playoffs in the second season after he left and Jerry West acquired Mike Miller, James Posey and Bonzi Wells.

[MaceCase]

Marvin is the same category except he has not had as many years in the league as Bynum."

I hope you are aware that they were both taken in the same draft.......

[jhay610]

Let's not forget the Hawks were only in a position to draft Horford due to a divine stroke of luck. The odds were heavily leaning towards our forfeiting that pick in connection with the JJ trade.

Why are we anointing this team when they haven't yet done anything? BK inherited a team that was swept out of the second round of the playoffs. He blew up the roster and we were the joke of the league for ten years. Now we have come full circle and been swept out of the second round and some are acting as if we are a championship team.

The Hawks started 6-0 last year and the Board went off it's rocker and started talking about dynasties and championships, etc at that time as well. This is a good team, but let's wait and see how this plays out before we induct BK into the hall of fame.

And as others have astutely pointed out, the man is still unemployed. It was a convergence of luck (Horford) and the sheer number of high level picks that we ever got out of the basement anyway.

One last thing - the Chris Paul comparison is so unfair because of the trash he has around him. A few years back Kobe had a crap team in LA and everyone was calling him out saying he was a glorified chucker on a par with Vince, T-Mac etc and only won anything because of Shaq. A few deft moves later by Mitch Kupchak and the Lakers are gunning for the 3-peat.

[Sasquatch]

BK's resume quick and easy. He takes a dysfunctional team Vancouver Grizzilies, Atlanta Hawks and he turns them into playoff teams via draft. He must be doing something right because if the team sticks with his core and philosophy(Teague and Jamal are BK type of players Big/Athletic Guards) they continue to get better(our Atlanta Hawks). Once they decide to go in another direction(Grizzilies), they go in another direction. BK's next venture will indeed be proof of this, it's just a question of who would give him the freedom to create his vision (I doubt New York gives him a try because they think Lebron will be their savior).

When Billy leaves, you will be better than you were before he got there.

I think Billy's formula works too...

But there is often a political component to sports and BK does not play that game...

He wont be nice to ignorant sports talk hosts (790 the zone - the authors of the BK hate mongering)

He wont make picks to satisfy a thirst for moral victories...

He wants the TEAM to get better...

Ours is

Edited November 13, 2009 by Sasquatch

[Sasquatch]

Besides the Bulls how many of these teams played and won together. You got a lot of question marks to answer.

Yeah...

I don't get that either...

How did the TEAM benefit from those picks

It is a beautiful example of what is so exasperating about the BK hate...

It's like hey, this guy and that guy got picked, but there is no regard for the composition of the TEAM

[Sasquatch]

via draft? yeah, because the reason the Hawks have been to the playoffs was because of horford and marvin, not JJ and Bibby...

And the grizzlies only went to the playoffs in the second season after he left and Jerry West acquired Mike Miller, James Posey and Bonzi Wells.

OMG...

You are gonna channel Jerry West now?

Why don't you give us a brief chronology of the state of the Memphis Grizzlies when Jerry West left that franchise in ashes

Why would you even touch that...

That's bad strategy if you are anti-BK

No sane person would even begin to question the assertion that the Grizzlies were in excellent shape and on the upswing when BK left them for the Hawks...

Jerry West waltz's in... get's his pound of flesh off of BK's work and proceeds to burn the franchise to ashes...

That team is so desperate in his wake...

They signed Allen Iverson this off-season

Bad move my friend

[jhay610]

A few deft moves later by Mitch Kupchak and the Lakers are gunning for the 3-peat.

Error - should have said "the repeat". The Lakers did indeed lose to the Celtics in 2008; but the point stands.

[Sasquatch]

BK inherited a team that was swept out of the second round of the playoffs. He blew up the roster and we were the joke of the league for ten years.

This is full of outright lies.

I won't even discuss the lies as it would only dignify this nonsense... none of it is true, from beginning to end

When I see this type of dishonesty and deception in a post...

I know the rest is not worth reading

Edited November 13, 2009 by Sasquatch

[Admin]

This is full of outright lies.

I won't even discuss the lies as it would only dignify this nonsense... none of it is true, from beginning to end

When I see this type of dishonesty and deception in a post...

I know the rest is not worth reading

As a moderator I'm asking you to please tone down these types of responses. There was no need for you to write multiple sentences dissing someone and nothing of substance.

BK inherited a team that was swept out of the second round of the playoffs. He blew up the roster and we were the joke of the league for ten years.

It's not correct that BK inherited a team that was swept out of the second round of the playoffs as BK took over in April of 2003 and we hadn't been in the playoffs since the 98-99 season but it was mostly the same core group of players I believe so maybe that's what he meant.

BK did blow up the roster.

And we were the joke of the league for ten years and we're still not completely removed from that stigma.

[AHF]

Let's take a look at one example as an illustration here. People who are supporting the idea that Knight is a great GM but can't find a job for reasons unknown have ridiculed the idea that Isiah Thomas was a better drafter. I strongly believe Thomas had the better eye for talent. He nailed it at the top of the draft and got a good number of starters and significant contributors later in the draft.

Drafting must be considered relative to the pick that you have. You can't look at a list of players and say "whoever has the best list is the better drafter." With that in mind, here is a comparison:

X = Worthless (or virtually worthless), S = Starter

Billy Knight

#2 Marvin Williams - S

#3 Pau Gasol - S, 2-Time All-Star, 1-Time 3rd Team All-NBA, 1st Team Rookie

#3 Al Horford - S, 1st Team Rookie

#5 Shelden Williams - X

#6 Josh Childress

#11 Acie Law - X

#17 Josh Smith - S

#21 Boris Diaw - S

#31 Salim Stoudamire - X

#33 Solomon Jones - X

#34 Donta Smith - X

#37 Royal Ivey - X

2 All-Star Apperances, 1 Third Team All-NBA, 0 All-NBA Defense, 0 ROY, 2-1st Team Rookie

5 starters in 12 top 40 picks

2 lottery busts

Isiah Thomas > Billy Knight

#2 Marcus Camby -S, Defensive Player of the Year, 4-time 1st/2nd All-NBA Defensive Team, 1st Team Rookie

#7 Damon Stoudamire -S, ROY, 1st Team Rookie

#8 Channing Frye - 1st Team Rookie

#9 Tracy McGrady - S, 7-Time All-Star, 2-Time 1st Team All-NBA, 3-Time 2nd Team All-NBA, 2-Time 3rd Team All-NBA

#20 Renaldo Balkman

#23 Wilson Chandler - S

#29 Mardy Collins - X

#30 David Lee - S

#35 Jimmy King - X

#43 Trevor Ariza, S

7 All-Star Appearances, 7 All-NBA Teams, 4 All-NBA Defense (1 DPOY), 1 ROY, 3-1st Team Rookie

6 starters in 10 top 43 picks

0 lottery busts

Bearing in mind that among these picks Billy Knight had an average draft position of 9.6 for 7 first round picks and Thomas had an average draft position of 16 for 8 first round picks, how in the world did Knight do a better job drafting than Isiah Thomas? Thomas got more starters, blew fewer picks, and had guys (to date) achieve more immediate and long-term success than Isiah's guys despite having much less to work with in terms of draft picks (which was partly his own fault based on other aspects of his performance that don't measure up to his drafting).

[dlpin]

OMG...

You are gonna channel Jerry West now?

Why don't you give us a brief chronology of the state of the Memphis Grizzlies when Jerry West left that franchise in ashes

Why would you even touch that...

That's bad strategy if you are anti-BK

No sane person would even begin to question the assertion that the Grizzlies were in excellent shape and on the upswing when BK left them for the Hawks...

Jerry West waltz's in... get's his pound of flesh off of BK's work and proceeds to burn the franchise to ashes...

That team is so desperate in his wake...

They signed Allen Iverson this off-season

Bad move my friend

I replied to that because it is not true. He said that BK made the grizzlies into a playoff team through the draft, which is false. BK left in 2002. In the 2002-2003 season the Grizzlies won 28 games, so BK clearly didnt leave them a playoff team, and the team clearly wasn't in "excellent shape."

West then acquired mike miller for drew gooden, bonzi wells for wesley person, and signed james posey. That is when the team made the playoffs. When 3 of the top 4 players on the team were acquired by West, it clearly wasn't BK's team anymore.And it clearly wasn't built through the draft. Just like the hawks weren't built through the draft.

Oh, and it was Chris Wallace that dismantled that team, when he was brought it precisely to cut costs.

Edited November 13, 2009 by dlpin