Al Horford Vs Kevin Durant

[dlpin]

That's a lie, I spoke to a lot of people and watched that draft and it was Hakeem, Bowie and then the field. MJ was a great athlete but most thought a guard would never have the impact like a Center. I would compare Bowie to Oden and MJ to Durant in that degree. That everyone stuff is after the fact.

The people you spoke to are wrong or remember it wrong. Bowie was never the consensus number 2 center, and Rod Thorn, the GM of the Bulls, at the time said that if he didnt get Jordan he would have taken Sam Perkins. The blazers had Drexler and drafted on need. Bowie spent two seasons sidelined because of injuries, while Michael Jordan was twice a consensus first team all america and collegiate player of the year according to pretty much every single award given that year.

There is no disputing that Jordan was a superior player even at the time. His awards and his selection for the 84 olympic team prove that.

If you look at the coverage at the time, I guarantee that no one said that Bowie would be a better player. Just that the Blazers needed a center more. And as proof of all this, Jordan received a larger contract coming out of college than Bowie did. As additional proof, if you ever go to a place with access to lexis nexis, go back and read some of the newspaper coverage in 1984, when they don't have the benefit of hindsight:

Here's a washington post story on Olajuwon and Jordan potentially declaring for the draft:

The Washington Post

May 5, 1984, Saturday, Final Edition

"Houston and Portland will flip a coin next week to determine who will get the first pick in the June 19 draft. Houston Coach Bill Fitch has said he would love to draft Olajuwon and move 7-4 Ralph Sampson, the NBA's rookie of the year, to forward. But Portland, which has to sign leading scorer Jim Paxson to a big-money free-agent contract, might opt for Jordan if it had the first pick. It would almost certainly go for him if it had the second pick and Olajuwon were taken."

The New York Times

June 17, 1984, Sunday, Late City Final Edition

This is 3 days before the draft,

"The pro scouts have tabbed Jordan, the college player of the year, ''a certainty to become a superstar.''"

In any case, the point remains that drafting on talent is better than drafting on need. No sane person would pick Horford over Durant.

Edited February 13, 2010 by dlpin

[Joker]

The people you spoke to are wrong or remember it wrong. Bowie was never the consensus number 2 center, and Rod Thorn, the GM of the Bulls, at the time said that if he didnt get Jordan he would have taken Sam Perkins. The blazers had Drexler and drafted on need. Bowie spent two seasons sidelined because of injuries, while Michael Jordan was twice a consensus first team all america and collegiate player of the year according to pretty much every single award given that year.

There is no disputing that Jordan was a superior player even at the time. His awards and his selection for the 84 olympic team prove that.

If you look at the coverage at the time, I guarantee that no one said that Bowie would be a better player. Just that the Blazers needed a center more. And as proof of all this, Jordan received a larger contract coming out of college than Bowie did. As additional proof, if you ever go to a place with access to lexis nexis, go back and read some of the newspaper coverage in 1984, when they don't have the benefit of hindsight:

Here's a washington post story on Olajuwon and Jordan potentially declaring for the draft:

The Washington Post

May 5, 1984, Saturday, Final Edition

"Houston and Portland will flip a coin next week to determine who will get the first pick in the June 19 draft. Houston Coach Bill Fitch has said he would love to draft Olajuwon and move 7-4 Ralph Sampson, the NBA's rookie of the year, to forward. But Portland, which has to sign leading scorer Jim Paxson to a big-money free-agent contract, might opt for Jordan if it had the first pick. It would almost certainly go for him if it had the second pick and Olajuwon were taken."

The New York Times

June 17, 1984, Sunday, Late City Final Edition

This is 3 days before the draft,

"The pro scouts have tabbed Jordan, the college player of the year, ''a certainty to become a superstar.''"

In any case, the point remains that drafting on talent is better than drafting on need. No sane person would pick Horford over Durant.

I said Oden over Durant. There were more pundits who fell Bowie's potential was higher than Hakeem. I heard some say that Hakeem would be the best. A couple like MJ overall. We never know what Bowie could have been if he was never injury phone. He had a solid career with all the injuries.

I asked a lot of people about that draft who were pundits at the time. I did two projects on that draft through my schooling. I recall exactly what pundits through. I was not around at that time, so I did not see it live but I've done a lot research on it. Everyone agreed at the time that PG's and Centers, but mainly Center win titles. Bowie and Hakeem were the two best in the nation. Bowie was noted for his potential and his ability to get injured ala Greg Oden. Hakeem was the most skilled big man since Kareem but many felt he was too small(6'11 and 225) and has not played long enough to be a the player many hoped for. That's why people though when he went to HOU was perfect fit since he can play PF. MJ was hard to predict, he looked like a PG but he wasn't. Most SG at the time were shooters and MJ had a great mid range shot but his range was poor for a SG. Everyone knew he could score and was a hell of an athlete. I do not believe people thought MJ would have been the player that he was. Many will probably say that Hakeem was what was to be expected. Bowie disappointed but his injuries started in college like Oden so it was no surprise it's continued in the NBA.

Edited February 13, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[uga2006]

It's kinda funny because even though Oden was the 7' man child at OSU he hasn't quite lived up to the hype. Yes he was set back with an injury his rookie year and his offensive game needed work but Portland may have done the same thing it did in '84. I mean how many guys come along at 21 and average 30 ppg. and almost 8 rpg. He averages 1 less rebound per game than Oden and Oden seems to never be healthy. I bet Portland would like a re-do.

[Joker]

It's kinda funny because even though Oden was the 7' man child at OSU he hasn't quite lived up to the hype. Yes he was set back with an injury his rookie year and his offensive game needed work but Portland may have done the same thing it did in '84. I mean how many guys come along at 21 and average 30 ppg. and almost 8 rpg. He averages 1 less rebound per game than Oden and Oden seems to never be healthy. I bet Portland would like a re-do.

What's funny is if Horford could play with a true elite PG like CP3, Deron Williams or possibly Rubio, and become #1 or 2 option, he could be like Karl Malone. That's a big miss by Portland. It's a great chance that Oden will never live up to his hyped potential.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Playmaking ability is not measured by assists alone.

And yes, Durant is on pace to being the next Lebron, though he scores more than he passes because of his play style and because he plays with a legitimate point guard, unlike lebron.

And the idea that Jordan owes his titles to Horace Grant is nonsense. If anything, it was Pippen who helped him the most. When they lost to the magic, they did because Jordan was rusty, 2 months out of retirement. And none of that change the fact that Jordan would have been a far superior pick to Bowie, even if the blazers never won anything with him. Everyone knew Jordan was better than Bowie before the draft, but the blazers drafted based on "need" and "fit."

So was Jordan rusty the 1st six years in the league? Im not saying Horace Grant was anywhere close to the MVP of the team or anything. I'm saying that you have to have a team around you to win championships. The Bulls had an oustanding front office making the move to get Grant and then Rodman.

People don't realize they are assuming that Portland would have had that kind of cast around Jordan. Which may not have been the case. Actually most don't know they are making that assumption because they are basically asserting Jordan won those titles by himself which is simply not hte case. To be honest the best JOrdan was like the 1988 version of Jordan. Unstoppable. But no cast around him.

It seems like Jermanie O'Neal thrashes Al everytime the Hawks play the Heat. I can't remember seeing Al shut anyone down.

Difference between contain and shutdown. Al Horford may not be Hakeem Olajuwon on defense but compared to what we would have without him he is.

Edited February 13, 2010 by BusBoyIsBack

[dlpin]

So was Jordan rusty the 1st six years in the league? Im not saying Horace Grant was anywhere close to the MVP of the team or anything. I'm saying that you have to have a team around you to win championships. The Bulls had an oustanding front office making the move to get Grant and then Rodman.

People don't realize they are assuming that Portland would have had that kind of cast around Jordan. Which may not have been the case. Actually most don't know they are making that assumption because they are basically asserting Jordan won those titles by himself which is simply not hte case. To be honest the best JOrdan was like the 1988 version of Jordan. Unstoppable. But no cast around him.

Difference between contain and shutdown. Al Horford may not be Hakeem Olajuwon on defense but compared to what we would have without him he is.

You do know that that blazers team made two finals, don't you? Now, get those two finals teams, trade out Clyde Drexler for anyone, and then add Jordan to that team.

And, again, in the bulls the difference was Pippen and Jordan entering his prime, not Horace Grant and his "wonderful" post play. Especially since you seem to forget that for his first 4 seasons MJ played alongside Charles Oakley, who was better than Grant in every respect.

[BusBoyIsBack]

You do know that that blazers team made two finals, don't you? Now, get those two finals teams, trade out Clyde Drexler for anyone, and then add Jordan to that team.

And, again, in the bulls the difference was Pippen and Jordan entering his prime, not Horace Grant and his "wonderful" post play. Especially since you seem to forget that for his first 4 seasons MJ played alongside Charles Oakley, who was better than Grant in every respect.

Horace Grant was one of the best post-defense players in the league. He was a 4x All-Defensive Team selection on the Bulls compared to ZERO times on the Bulls for Oakley.

Im not saying Jordan would have finished his career with the same amount of rings as Reggie Miller if he played for Portland. But this notion that he was an automatic for 6 rings outside of Chicago, come on.

What's funny is if Horford could play with a true elite PG like CP3, Deron Williams or possibly Rubio, and become #1 or 2 option, he could be like Karl Malone. That's a big miss by Portland. It's a great chance that Oden will never live up to his hyped potential.

Or what if he even had Russell Westbrook? BTW, don't think Rubio deserves to be mentioned in conversations like that. He hasn't even proved more than Teague at this point

Edited February 13, 2010 by BusBoyIsBack

[Joker]

Horace Grant was one of the best post-defense players in the league. He was a 4x All-Defensive Team selection on the Bulls compared to ZERO times on the Bulls for Oakley.

Im not saying Jordan would have finished his career with the same amount of rings as Reggie Miller if he played for Portland. But this notion that he was an automatic for 6 rings outside of Chicago, come on.

Or what if he even had Russell Westbrook? BTW, don't think Rubio deserves to be mentioned in conversations like that. He hasn't even proved more than Teague at this point

Neither has John Wall but he could be great as well.

[dlpin]

Horace Grant was one of the best post-defense players in the league. He was a 4x All-Defensive Team selection on the Bulls compared to ZERO times on the Bulls for Oakley.

Im not saying Jordan would have finished his career with the same amount of rings as Reggie Miller if he played for Portland. But this notion that he was an automatic for 6 rings outside of Chicago, come on.

Or what if he even had Russell Westbrook? BTW, don't think Rubio deserves to be mentioned in conversations like that. He hasn't even proved more than Teague at this point

Grant was 4 times 2nd team, he never made it on the first team. Oakley did.

And Grant played behind quite possibly the best defensive small forward of all time and the best defensive shooting guard of all time.

And you will note that at no point I said that Jordan would win 6 titles in Portland. My point was simply that Jordan would still be Jordan in Portland, so the argument that he might not have been that great if the blazers picked him is nonsense.

Here's what we know, as a fact, about that draft:

The rockets GM had Olajuwon first, Jordan second in its board

The Bulls GM had Olajuwon first, Jordan second, Sam Perkins third in its board.

If the Blazers failed to resign Jim Paxson, they would have ranked Olajuwon first, Jordan second. Paxson resigned so they went with need over talent.

In any case, this discussion is pointless. They might have not known at the time that Jordan was better than Bowie (though most did), but we do know that Durant is much, much better than Horford. The ceiling for Horford is occasional all star. The ceiling for Durant is multiple MVP awards.

[Dejay]

Why are we even having this debate? C'mon folks, we're better than this....

Bottom line, if the Hawks had the second overall pick that year and not the third, Durant is our small forward, and Marvin Williams (and Josh Childress for that matter) would've been on the first plane out of Hartsfield-Jackson the day after the NBA allowed trading to occur. He would've been the single biggest attraction the franchise has had since Nique was throwing down tomahawk dunks in the Omni. Meanwhile, Williams and/or Childress's 'value' would've been used to bring in the big man (and not some jabronie) that the team would've sorely needed. Let's see....

Bibby

Johnson

Durant

Smith

(insert big man here)

With Crawford, Zaza, Evans, and Teague coming off the bench. I would say that their record would be 36-15 right now and would make Orlando think twice about standing pat during the trade deadline. I'll take that.

But as much as I despised Knight, even I couldn't blame him for Durant not being here. It isn't as if BK passed on him to draft Horford so that should pop anyone's fantasy balloon....

Edited February 17, 2010 by Dejay

[SharadP]

I would have to say on this one, that while I love Horford, Durant is an actual superstar or will be one, something we have not had since Nique. If you can get a player like him, you always take that, because there are only a handful of superstars in the league.

[BusBoyIsBack]

I would have to say on this one, that while I love Horford, Durant is an actual superstar or will be one, something we have not had since Nique. If you can get a player like him, you always take that, because there are only a handful of superstars in the league.

Yeah but how far in the playoffs with Nique? Never out of the 2nd round right? Obviously not his fault but the thing is you have to have a team around a player. Particularly the complimentary pieces.

I just don't see how we would have the complimentary pieces around Durant to the point where he'd be a better fit than Horford. I mean no offense to Zaza, but seriously what would we do at Center without Horford? And Zaza starting would mean even less depth in terms of backups

[Dejay]

Yeah but how far in the playoffs with Nique? Never out of the 2nd round right? Obviously not his fault but the thing is you have to have a team around a player. Particularly the complimentary pieces.

I just don't see how we would have the complimentary pieces around Durant to the point where he'd be a better fit than Horford. I mean no offense to Zaza, but seriously what would we do at Center without Horford? And Zaza starting would mean even less depth in terms of backups

What would they do at center if Durant was on the squad and Horford wasn't? Wasn't Marvin and Childress still on the roster at the time? We still had draft picks, right? If so, I know what I'd do to get a big man in here....

[dlpin]

Yeah but how far in the playoffs with Nique? Never out of the 2nd round right? Obviously not his fault but the thing is you have to have a team around a player. Particularly the complimentary pieces.

I just don't see how we would have the complimentary pieces around Durant to the point where he'd be a better fit than Horford. I mean no offense to Zaza, but seriously what would we do at Center without Horford? And Zaza starting would mean even less depth in terms of backups

Zaza+Durant>>>>>>>Horford+Marvin

OKC is 3 games behind the hawks with Krstic as a starting center, and no one even close to JJ, Josh Smith and Crawford around him. And that is not even counting on a possible Marvin trade for a center.

[Joker]

Zaza+Durant>>>>>>>Horford+Marvin

OKC is 3 games behind the hawks with Krstic as a starting center, and no one even close to JJ, Josh Smith and Crawford around him. And that is not even counting on a possible Marvin trade for a center.

Agreed but CP3+Horford+Marvin= contenders for the next 8 years.

[Cwell]

Sure, Lebron at 25 is better than Durant at 21. But how does Durant at 21 compare to Lebron at 21?

Durant will win an MVP or two before all is said and done. Horford won't.

It's your line of thinking that left Portland with Sam Bowie instead of Jordan.

MVP's don't win championships, and that's all that matters.

[Dejay]

Zaza+Durant>>>>>>>Horford+Marvin

OKC is 3 games behind the hawks with Krstic as a starting center, and no one even close to JJ, Josh Smith and Crawford around him. And that is not even counting on a possible Marvin trade for a center.

A possible Marvin trade for a center? A POSSIBLE trade? If Durant was here, Marvin and/or Childress would've been sent packing for a big man seconds after the league gave the 'all clear' to make trades that summer. Add that to the mix and we're not fighting for the 3rd seed; we'd be the clear #3 team in the league behind the Lakers and the Labrons (well, maybe)....

[dlpin]

MVP's don't win championships, and that's all that matters.

But it is much easier to win a championship with an MVP than without one. The only teams in the past 30 years to win a championship without a player who was or had been an MVP at some point are the heat and the pistons.

[EazyRoc]

I could have sworn Shaq has won an MVP..

[AHF]

I could have sworn Shaq has won an MVP..

Yep. The Pistons are the only team to win a championship during that time without a guy who was an MVP.