Jamal and Joe's Minutes

[Crank]

That is +1 in nearly a quarter less of play. Besides, you missed the point of his post totally. The Hawks where nearly a 50 win team last season before getting Crawford. Do you really think they would approach 50 wins with Crawford and no JJ. Based on what I have seen from the Hawks without JJ this year my answer is a resounding no! JJ brings identity to this team. I think fear that he may be leaving is why so many fans want to downplay his value. There are only two or three SGs in the entire NBA that could replace JJ in ATL and yield equal or better results/wins.

But of course both you and he ignore than in that game teh reason Crawford had more minutes than Joe was because Joe was totally ineffective at the start of the game ? Its amazing how people try and point to someones +/- stat to tell how well they were playing . If you go back and compare them against the top teams you would see a entirely different story but thats a stat for another thread .

last year we were nearly a 50 win team buts that exactly it THAT WAS LAST YEAR. Secondly no one said replace Joe with Crawford he said increase Crawford minutes while lowering JJs minutes because he felt JJ would be more effective with lowered minutes . Again reading really is fundamental.

[Crank]

Crank, he does have a point though about trade.

A player as talented as he is, got traded for Speedy and Acie .. . in what was basically a salary dump. Golden St. didn't even request a draft pick ( not even a 2nd round one ). Golden St basically GAVE Crawford to us.

As much as Memphis was hammered for the Pau Gasol trade, they can at least say that they acquired his brother Marc, and a 1st round pick. Golden St. didn't even get that.

They tried trading him for value, but go no takers.

Crawford has #1 option talent. But througout his entire career, his questionable decision making ( including his bas shot selection ), prevented him from excelling in that role.

With us, all we ask him to be, is Jason Terry. They play the exact same role. And because we don't put the burden on him to carry the team in multiple facets ( like we do JJ ), he has excelled in that Terry-like role, having arguably his best season ever.

No he doesnt because when dealing with franchise that have been bad for years its a reason they are bad for that long and its poor decision making ?

Sjax is going to the playoffs with the Bobcats

Zach Randolph made the all star team

Bad organizations make bad decisions which is why hey produce BAD TEAMS . GS making a bad decision has no reflection on Crawford as a player and his play this year says alot about them as a organization. They were trying to cut salary to stay under the Tax they were paying Maggette 9 million per year and no one was taking him ,they were also paying SJax 8 million per year and Monta 11 million per year with with young guards CJ Watson,Marco bellinelli and Morrow also in the mix . So again you can ignore the facts and think this deal had something to with talent or character instead of of the blatantly obvious cap situation of the warriors .

Its pretty funny the comparisons you try and come with for Crawford youve been wrong from the start and you are still plugging away . We dont ask him to be jason terry and regardless of what we ask him to do he has carried this this season just as much as JJ has . You are in denial the only 6th man Ive ever seen that was asked to bail out his team more than jamal was Manu Ginobili . Terry plays well off the bench but he has steady as a rock all nba player Dirk carrying the load every single night. Some nights JJ doesnt show up at all and Crawford still has to do his thing and has done it well. for us to win those games .

So no he doesnt have the same role which is why he on pace to impact the game off the bench in a way only Ricky pierce has in the last 40 years. Now dont get me wrong I respect JJ and what he has done but

Manu has Duncan

Terry has Dirk

Varejao has King James

Odom has Kobe

Crawford has JJ

If JJ was as consistent as those players we would be a 60+ win team right now the fact remains that Crawford spends more time picking up JJ slack than playing his "Jason terry role " whereas none of those other guys spend much time carrying their "franchise players" .

If you look at it from the very beginning JJ didnt make the Hawks into what they are today .The hawks made JJ into the player he is . Just ask yourself what would he doing if we changed coaches every other season ? If we were making wholesale changes every year ?

[99PROBL3MS]

No don't twist it up. He said Crawford would be his #1 and JJ would be his "1A" that's a joke. Maybe his +/- was lower against "top" teams because of the fact that he garners so much attention. How many times has JJ been doubled on the catch this season? Virtually everytime. Why does Crawford need more minutes than JJ? If the hawks want to win that is a bad idea.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

No he doesnt because when dealing with franchise that have been bad for years its a reason they are bad for that long and its poor decision making ?

Sjax is going to the playoffs with the Bobcats

Zach Randolph made the all star team

Bad organizations make bad decisions which is why hey produce BAD TEAMS . GS making a bad decision has no reflection on Crawford as a player and his play this year says alot about them as a organization. They were trying to cut salary to stay under the Tax they were paying Maggette 9 million per year and no one was taking him ,they were also paying SJax 8 million per year and Monta 11 million per year with with young guards CJ Watson,Marco bellinelli and Morrow also in the mix . So again you can ignore the facts and think this deal had something to with talent or character instead of of the blatantly obvious cap situation of the warriors .

So was it a bad decision for Golden St. to acquire Crawford in the first place? Remember . . they traded Al Harrington for Jamal Crawford.

[Crank]

So was it a bad decision for Golden St. to acquire Crawford in the first place? Remember . . they traded Al Harrington for Jamal Crawford.

So was it a bad decision for Golden St. to acquire Crawford in the first place? Remember . . they traded Al Harrington for Jamal Crawford.

They traded for Crawford because Monta Ellis tore up his ankle in that scooter accident . They were not sure if he was ever gonna recover and there was even talk of voiding his new 60+ million dollar deal . Harrington if Im not mistaken was benched by Nelson and wasnt playing at all but yes it was a bad decision to trade for Crawford as they were in flux and the situation still is in flux 2 full seasons later . It was a reactionary deal for them also losing baron Davis over the summer . They then went and signed Maggette to 50 million dollar deal as well as signed both Biedrens and Ellis to 60+ million dollar deals and then also signed Turiaf and anointed Sjax the leader and then signed him to a huge extension at the start of the season . For the record thats

Biedrens 63 million

Ellis 66 million

Maggette 50 million

Sjax 28 million (extension)

Turiaf 17 million

Its always a bad decision to make trades with no real plan . You dont trade for someone just because you like him better than the person you are sending out thats just stupid . You need to have some idea of how he fits into your plans going forward .

[MaceCase]

So was it a bad decision for Golden St. to acquire Crawford in the first place? Remember . . they traded Al Harrington for Jamal Crawford.

Not for nothing but both NY and GS were playoffs teams before his arrival. Not saying he is solely responsible for those reversal of fortunes but the fact that people are excusing Jamal for both his personal and team performances as if only one influenced the other but not the other way around is rather humorous to me. I just wish Reef and JT got that kind of leeway.

[Crank]

Not for nothing but both NY and GS were playoffs teams before his arrival. Not saying he is solely responsible for those reversal of fortunes but the fact that people are excusing Jamal for both his personal and team performances as if only one influenced the other but not the other way around is rather humorous to me. I just wish Reef and JT got that kind of leeway.

LOL the knicks had Allan Houston who was hurt and never actually recovered but they made the playoff with 38 wins after not having been in two seasons and the Warriors have had ONE playoff appearance in the last 15 years and then Baron walked to the Clippers and now its Crawford fault for that ? LOL I find it humorous how people try and pick these random events and somehow tie them to a player . Did Crawford turn us into a 50 win team ? Who is excusing him ? I merely applied facts and circumstances surrounding him to the equation something that seems to get left out alot . T

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Its pretty funny the comparisons you try and come with for Crawford youve been wrong from the start and you are still plugging away . We dont ask him to be jason terry and regardless of what we ask him to do he has carried this this season just as much as JJ has . You are in denial the only 6th man Ive ever seen that was asked to bail out his team more than jamal was Manu Ginobili . Terry plays well off the bench but he has steady as a rock all nba player Dirk carrying the load every single night. Some nights JJ doesnt show up at all and Crawford still has to do his thing and has done it well. for us to win those games .

My comparisons have been DEAD ON. Vinnie Johnson, Jason Terry, Ricky Pierce, Leonardo Barbosa, J.R. Smith, etc . . . have all been used in that "instant offense" 6th man role, and excelled in that role. I'm not saying that Vinnie Johnson and Crawford are equal talents. I'm saying that they were used in the exact same role. When you talk about equal talents, JT and Jamal are a better comparison, with a slight advantage going to Terry.

So no he doesnt have the same role which is why he on pace to impact the game off the bench in a way only Ricky pierce has in the last 40 years.

Hmmmmm . . . let's see then. Just because somebody tells you something, doesn't make it true. Always check to see if the source is accurate.

PER 36 numbers: ( looking at the career best year

Jamal Crawford ( 2009 - 10 ): 20.9 ppg . . 2.9 rebs . . 3.5 assists . . . 44.9% FG ( 16.2 - FGA/gm ) . . 38.2% 3FG ( 6.2 - 3FGA/gm ) . . 85.7% FT ( 4.6 - FTA/gm )

Jason Terry ( 2008 - 09 ): 20.9 ppg . . 2.6 rebs . . 3.6 assists . . . 46.3% FG ( 16.9 - FGA/gm ) . . 36.6% 3FG ( 6.6 3FGA/gm ) . . 88.0% FT ( 3.3 - FTA/gm )

LOL . . . looks pretty similar to me, wouldn't you say? JT's shooting has fallen off this year, but this year's Crawford and last year's Terry, were almost identical twins. By the way, these are Ricky Pierce's PER 36 numbers in the year he averaged 23 ppg in the 1989 - 90 season:

Ricky Pierce ( 1898 - 90 ): 28.6 ppg . . 3.5 rebs . . 2.8 assists . . . 51% FG ( 16.7 - FGA/gm ) . . 34.6% 3FG ( 2.8 - 3FGA/gm ) . . 83.9% FT ( 7.7 FTA/gm )

So as you can see, Ricky Pierce was NOTHING like JT or Jamal, in their career best year in the 6th man role. For those of us who are old enough to see Ricky play back in the day ( don't know if you are or not ), Ricky was a mid-range ASSASSIN who could also post you up and slash to the hole. To be honest, Ricky was a smaller, but more physical version of Joe Johnson . . without the passing and defensive abilities. Once Ricky got his chance to produce, he made the most of it and became a great instant offense type scorer.

And let's be honest. The vast majority of these "instant offense" type players are put in that role, because they are very suspect on the defensive end. So a coach may opt to start a better defensive player in his place, then bring in the instant offense guy into the game as the change of pace scorer.

That's what Jamal Crawford's role is here in ATL. And he's excelled in that role, which should lead him to be 6th Man of the Year.

Now dont get me wrong I respect JJ and what he has done but

Manu has Duncan

Terry has Dirk

Varejao has King James

Odom has Kobe

Crawford has JJ

If JJ was as consistent as those players we would be a 60+ win team right now the fact remains that Crawford spends more time picking up JJ slack than playing his "Jason terry role " whereas none of those other guys spend much time carrying their "franchise players" .

First off . . JJ isn't as good as Duncan, Dirk, Lebron and Kobe, so it's silly to bring their names up into this discussion. The only thing JJ has in common with those guys are:

1) he's the guy that the opposing team looks to stop FIRST ( and won't hesitate to double team him )

2) and he takes and sometimes makes very difficult shots ( ala what Lebron and Kobe do at times )

We're not a 60+ win team, because our defense is too inconsistent. And Crawford's role is not to take up JJ's slack . . it's to add to what JJ brings to the table, which he's done very well this year. JJ is having one of his best shooting years of his career this season.

If you look at it from the very beginning JJ didnt make the Hawks into what they are today .The hawks made JJ into the player he is . Just ask yourself what would he doing if we changed coaches every other season ? If we were making wholesale changes every year ?

(( GASP )) . . so are you saying that Woody DEVELOPED JJ? I've said that all along. Woody has pretty much groomed and molded JJ into the player he is today. Instead of him being that "instant offense" player that he was in Phoenix ( even though he was a starter ), Woody pretty much coached him up to play like he had superstar talent.

( By the way . . . he's also done that with Josh Smith, even if people won't give him credit for it. )

Crank . . . with JJ having the ball in his hands as much as he does, there is NO DOUBT that JJ had a SIGNIFICANT part in making the Hawks what they are today. LOL . . why would you even dispute this? Even the most vocal JJ hater wouldn't say something that silly. The dude has led this team in scoring in all 5 years, and in assists in 4 of the 5 years. He's our best ( pretty much only ) perimeter defender. The only thing that people can say that JJ DOESN'T do, is get to the FT line more often, and play like a superstar more often.

Other than that, he pretty much does it all . . . in a non-flashy way.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

(( GASP )) . . so are you saying that Woody DEVELOPED JJ? I've said that all along. Woody has pretty much groomed and molded JJ into the player he is today. Instead of him being that "instant offense" player that he was in Phoenix ( even though he was a starter ), Woody pretty much coached him up to play like he had superstar talent.

And before people go crazy over that comment . . . I know that JJ had already shown that he had pretty good all-around skills. It's just that with the Hawks, Woody coached him up to be that #1 guy, even when people were doubting that JJ could be that player.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL the knicks had Allan Houston who was hurt and never actually recovered but they made the playoff with 38 wins after not having been in two seasons and the Warriors have had ONE playoff appearance in the last 15 years and then Baron walked to the Clippers and now its Crawford fault for that ? LOL I find it humorous how people try and pick these random events and somehow tie them to a player . Did Crawford turn us into a 50 win team ? Who is excusing him ? I merely applied facts and circumstances surrounding him to the equation something that seems to get left out alot . T

Jamal's acquistion by the Warriors, and why they acquired him ( make sure you listen to the audio )

http://www.nba.com/warriors/news/warriors_acquire_jamal_crawford.html

Now check out these links, telling of Crawford's demise with the Warriors: ( but I've done this before, and you won't believe what some of these links are saying ):

SLAM online article basically alleging that Nellie wanted Jamal to opt out of his contract, so that the Warriors could re-do it: http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2009/03/don-nelsons-ultimatum-for-jamal-crawford/

NBA fanhouse article on basically the same thing: http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/03/12/don-nelson-wants-jamal-crawford-gone/

Golden Stat of Mind Fan Poll on this issue: http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2009/3/7/785039/polling-gsom-do-you-want-j

Fans perspective . . they were definitely split. Some blamed Nelson. Others blamed Crawford and his inefficient play: http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2009/3/23/807914/jamal-crawford-s-return-de

SFgate.com article: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/warriors/detail?blogid=39&entry_id=37330

While the demise of Jamal in Oaktown probably had more to do with Nellie trying to force-feed something that wasn't there . . with his "small-ball" concept, Jamal's play in Golden St didn't help matters either. After only 3 months of watching him play, they pretty much gave up on the dude, played the young guys, and tanked the season . . . looking to trade him away for basically nothing.

No team in the league wanted Jamal ( to my knowledge ) . . but US . . because we had a need for a #2 type scorer to pair with JJ. He's worked out beautifully for us, because we don't try to force him to be a playmaking PG, as well as a scoring 2-guard. We just tell the dude to score PERIOD, try to play solid defense, and if a passing play is there . . go ahead and make it.

Nothing wrong with that role for him. And I think he embraces it fully.

[benhillboy]

Can a Pro-Joe guy explain and justify why Jamal has HIT more free throws than Joe has ATTEMPTED this season while playing approximately 400 less minutes? (yes, I took the missed games into account.)

Edited April 12, 2010 by benhillboy

[MaceCase]

LOL the knicks had Allan Houston who was hurt and never actually recovered but they made the playoff with 38 wins after not having been in two seasons and the Warriors have had ONE playoff appearance in the last 15 years and then Baron walked to the Clippers and now its Crawford fault for that ? LOL I find it humorous how people try and pick these random events and somehow tie them to a player . Did Crawford turn us into a 50 win team ? Who is excusing him ? I merely applied facts and circumstances surrounding him to the equation something that seems to get left out alot . T

Those feeble 39 wins were never duplicated again during his tenure in NY.

GS made the playoffs with 42 wins and actually increased that total to 48 wins the year after when they didn't make the playoffs.

Not picking anything random, your idea is that Crawford playing on poor teams is what forced him to shoot 40% and not Crawford shooting 40% contributing to those teams being poor. Blame Marbury or SJax all you want, those guys could play and their gripes with losing had zero influence on Jamal's personal performances. If anything, when Jamal could not rely on them to shoulder the load and had to step up to be the #1 option is what caused him to have such a terrible career performance till his arrival here.

To have me believe that history is unimportant and that he can somehow be the #1 option here is what is really humorous.

No people, Jamal is not performing well because he is playing with a stable franchise, he's performing well because he is playing with a stable #1 option.

[HawkWeisErrr]

Can a Pro-Joe guy explain and justify why Jamal has HIT more free throws than Joe has ATTEMPTED this season while playing approximately 400 less minutes? (yes, I took the missed games into account.)

I doubt it.

[Crank]

My comparisons have been DEAD ON. Vinnie Johnson, Jason Terry, Ricky Pierce, Leonardo Barbosa, J.R. Smith, etc . . . have all been used in that "instant offense" 6th man role, and excelled in that role. I'm not saying that Vinnie Johnson and Crawford are equal talents. I'm saying that they were used in the exact same role. When you talk about equal talents, JT and Jamal are a better comparison, with a slight advantage going to Terry.]

but they are not used in the exact same role . Again you keep trying to put Crawford into this little hole but keep ignoring the facts . Vinnie Johnson never had the ball handling or shot creation responsibilities that Crawford has . Neither has Jr Smith,Barbosa,or Pierce for that matter . Its clear as day that when Crawford comes in hes not used for instant offense that little comment that Woody made at the start of the season lasted all of 2-3 games just long enough for them to see how much Bibby has fell off. Now Crawford is running the point when he comes into the game and then becomes a scorer when Joe is out the of the game .

Hmmmmm . . . let's see then. Just because somebody tells you something, doesn't make it true. Always check to see if the source is accurate.

PER 36 numbers: ( looking at the career best year

Jamal Crawford ( 2009 - 10 ): 20.9 ppg . . 2.9 rebs . . 3.5 assists . . . 44.9% FG ( 16.2 - FGA/gm ) . . 38.2% 3FG ( 6.2 - 3FGA/gm ) . . 85.7% FT ( 4.6 - FTA/gm )

Jason Terry ( 2008 - 09 ): 20.9 ppg . . 2.6 rebs . . 3.6 assists . . . 46.3% FG ( 16.9 - FGA/gm ) . . 36.6% 3FG ( 6.6 3FGA/gm ) . . 88.0% FT ( 3.3 - FTA/gm )

LOL . . . looks pretty similar to me, wouldn't you say? JT's shooting has fallen off this year, but this year's Crawford and last year's Terry, were almost identical twins. By the way, these are Ricky Pierce's PER 36 numbers in the year he averaged 23 ppg in the 1989 - 90 season:

Ricky Pierce ( 1898 - 90 ): 28.6 ppg . . 3.5 rebs . . 2.8 assists . . . 51% FG ( 16.7 - FGA/gm ) . . 34.6% 3FG ( 2.8 - 3FGA/gm ) . . 83.9% FT ( 7.7 FTA/gm )

So as you can see, Ricky Pierce was NOTHING like JT or Jamal, in their career best year in the 6th man role. For those of us who are old enough to see Ricky play back in the day ( don't know if you are or not ), Ricky was a mid-range ASSASSIN who could also post you up and slash to the hole. To be honest, Ricky was a smaller, but more physical version of Joe Johnson . . without the passing and defensive abilities. Once Ricky got his chance to produce, he made the most of it and became a great instant offense type scorer.

Again the problem he is the manipulation of numbers . You seem to like to do that . Crawford isnt playing 36 mpg hes playing 31 and terry that year actually was playing 35 mpg until he got hurt and his minutes fell to 34. Terry was the defactor starter as they started Antoine Wright most of that season but he played <23mpg most of the time. They are not twins when one is doing with high starters minutes and one is doing with minimal starter minutes you add in the fact that Crawford has shot 315 fts this year while Terry shot 225 last year and its no brainer that they are not twins just because you stretched out the numbers .

You post Pierce numbers but I didnt compare Crawford to Pierce at all I said he was the biggest impact off the bench of anyone since Peirce . So again you are reaching here Jamal has 32 20Pts games and 15 25+ pts games and is the only full season bench player to do that since Pierce .

And let's be honest. The vast majority of these "instant offense" type players are put in that role, because they are very suspect on the defensive end. So a coach may opt to start a better defensive player in his place, then bring in the instant offense guy into the game as the change of pace scorer.

That's what Jamal Crawford's role is here in ATL. And he's excelled in that role, which should lead him to be 6th Man of the Year.

Eddie House is instant offense and Crawford role is nothing like Eddie House and it shouldnt even have to be argued .

First off . . JJ isn't as good as Duncan, Dirk, Lebron and Kobe, so it's silly to bring their names up into this discussion. The only thing JJ has in common with those guys are:

1) he's the guy that the opposing team looks to stop FIRST ( and won't hesitate to double team him )

2) and he takes and sometimes makes very difficult shots ( ala what Lebron and Kobe do at times )

We're not a 60+ win team, because our defense is too inconsistent. And Crawford's role is not to take up JJ's slack . . it's to add to what JJ brings to the table, which he's done very well this year. JJ is having one of his best shooting years of his career this season.

lol I know hes not as good as those players which is why it cracks me up everytime people start whining when someone points this out. Its not a coincidence has the same thing in common with those guys that JJ does .

And yes that plan originally was for Crawford to add onto what JJ brought to the table the majority of the season has seen Crawford picking up the JJ and the starters slack instead of adding on which is actually why we are not a 60 win team .

(( GASP )) . . so are you saying that Woody DEVELOPED JJ? I've said that all along. Woody has pretty much groomed and molded JJ into the player he is today. Instead of him being that "instant offense" player that he was in Phoenix ( even though he was a starter ), Woody pretty much coached him up to play like he had superstar talent.

( By the way . . . he's also done that with Josh Smith, even if people won't give him credit for it. )

Crank . . . with JJ having the ball in his hands as much as he does, there is NO DOUBT that JJ had a SIGNIFICANT part in making the Hawks what they are today. LOL . . why would you even dispute this? Even the most vocal JJ hater wouldn't say something that silly. The dude has led this team in scoring in all 5 years, and in assists in 4 of the 5 years. He's our best ( pretty much only ) perimeter defender. The only thing that people can say that JJ DOESN'T do, is get to the FT line more often, and play like a superstar more often.

Other than that, he pretty much does it all . . . in a non-flashy way.

Yes Woody has developed JJ to a certain point but also has stunted his growth at the same time . JJ is still playing as if its 2007 . He may be our best defender perimeter when he decides to play defense but hes been coasting for an entire season now and everyone can see it which is why hes gotten more criticism that ever,.

Al has improved individually

Josh has improved individually

Marvin has improved individually

JJ is in 2007

Bibby has declined due to age

The starting 5 as a unit has regressed and its mainly due to JJ's lack of growth as a player . He didnt grow with the team the team grew around him now for this team to take another step they need a more vocal,driven, assertive JJ and they wont get it so where does that leave the team ? Im not talking stats he should be having his best season ever as a player MENTALLY ,as a leader and captain as he has the least amount of pressure to perform statistically than hes ever had this year .

As for the ft line problem thats huge because if you max him for 5 years there is no such thing as a star swingman that cant get to the ft line past 30 being effective . It reminds me of Michael Finely 20 pts scorer who once he got to 30 because nothing but a spot up jump shooter and he still could play a role but not at max salary.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Can a Pro-Joe guy explain and justify why Jamal has HIT more free throws than Joe has ATTEMPTED this season while playing approximately 400 less minutes? (yes, I took the missed games into account.)

Because Crawford has a knack for drawing a foul off of his jumpshot. He doesn't drive to the hole as much as JJ, but he definitely draws more fouls off of his jumper.

[mrhonline]

The reason Jamal is the perfect 6th man is that he doesn't need to "warm up" before he can come in and score off the bench. That's quite a rare trait in the NBA.

[AHF]

I am LMAO that people want to ignore Crawford's career TS% and his defensive prowess (or lack thereof). He has been very good as the second option this season for the Hawks. I love the addition and can't wait to see him play more next year. But there is nothing...nothing...that has given me confidence he would be a better centerpiece for this team than JJ. JJ relieving pressure from Crawford has allowed Crawford to blossom this year whereas Crawford has helped JJ produce the same sort of scoring efficiency he has done numerous times without Crawford::

Bold = scored more ppg that season

2009-10 Jamal Crawford .573 TS%

2006-07 Joe Johnson .558 TS%

2004-05 Joe Johnson .556 TS%

2008-09 Jamal Crawford .545 TS%

2005-06 Jamal Crawford .544 TS%

2005-06 Joe Johnson .537 TS%

2009-10 Joe Johnson .535 TS%

2007-08 Joe Johnson .535 TS%

2008-09 Joe Johnson .534 TS%

2007-08 Jamal Crawford .528 TS%

2004-05 Jamal Crawford .521 TS%

2006-07 Jamal Crawford .517 TS%

2003-04 Jamal Crawford .485 TS%

(omitting years when young - i.e., first 3 seasons for both players)

It is clear that JJ has been the more productive scorer over their careers to date and that his teams have won more games. It is clear he is the better defender. It is clear that his scoring efficiency as a #1 option has been largely unaffected by Crawford's addition but that Crawford's efficiency has been dramatically impacted by the pressure taken off from Joe.

So why in the world would anyone want to get rid of Joe to install Jamal as the top guy? Who is hankering to watch a a Bibby/Crawford backcourt defending and to see Jamal getting double teamed? How would that translate into good things for us?

JJ + Jamal >>>> JJ > Jamal

Edited April 12, 2010 by AHF

[TheNorthCydeRises]

but they are not used in the exact same role . Again you keep trying to put Crawford into this little hole but keep ignoring the facts . Vinnie Johnson never had the ball handling or shot creation responsibilities that Crawford has . Neither has Jr Smith,Barbosa,or Pierce for that matter . Its clear as day that when Crawford comes in hes not used for instant offense that little comment that Woody made at the start of the season lasted all of 2-3 games just long enough for them to see how much Bibby has fell off. Now Crawford is running the point when he comes into the game and then becomes a scorer when Joe is out the of the game .

Crawford is definitely used for instant offense. This isn't even a debate. He takes the vast majority of the shots when paired with the 2nd unit, not trying to set them up for points. When he's in the game with JJ and Bibby, he hardly handles the ball, unless he's out on the break or if he's looking for his shot. On a PER 36 minute basis . . . this is the lowest assist total ( 3.5 assists/per 36 ) Crawford has averaged in his career . . but the most points ( 20.9 ppg/per 36 ). But he's not being used in an "instant offense" role?

( lol . . more numbers manipulation I guess ).

Even if you look at his real time stats, this is STILL the 3rd lowest assist output of his career ( 3 assists ) . . . but the 3rd most points he's scored in a season in his career ( 18 ppg ).

Vinnie Johnson? PER 36 minutes he aveaged 4.8 assists over his career . . . Crawford? 4.6 assists for his career. Real time stats? Vinnie Johnson 3.3 assists in 24.7 minutes . . Crawford 4 assists in 32.4 minutes.

Woody told Crawford that he wanted him to lead the league in scoring off the bench. And to Crawford's credit, that's exactly what he did.

Mr. "Instant Offense" Crawford.

Again the problem he is the manipulation of numbers . You seem to like to do that . Crawford isnt playing 36 mpg hes playing 31 and terry that year actually was playing 35 mpg until he got hurt and his minutes fell to 34. Terry was the defactor starter as they started Antoine Wright most of that season but he played <23mpg most of the time. They are not twins when one is doing with high starters minutes and one is doing with minimal starter minutes you add in the fact that Crawford has shot 315 fts this year while Terry shot 225 last year and its no brainer that they are not twins just because you stretched out the numbers .

They're twins in their style of play . . the shots they take . . and in the roles both teams placed them in. Once again, this is not a debate. Crawford shoots more FTs, because he has the uncanny ability to draw a foul off of his jumpshot. Terry, while he doesn't draw fouls off of his jumper, shot a higher percentage from the field. Other than that, their roles are IDENTICAL.

LOL @ high starter vs minimal starter minutes. In the year that I cited for Terry ( 2008 - 09 ). . he averaged 33.7 minutes a game, starting 11 games. Crawford this year has averaged 31.1 minutes a game, starting zero games.

Crawford playing 31 minutes a game is about the league average for a starter. That's not "miminal starter minutes". Minimal starter minutes is more like the 27 per game that Bibby averages.

You post Pierce numbers but I didnt compare Crawford to Pierce at all I said he was the biggest impact off the bench of anyone since Peirce . So again you are reaching here Jamal has 32 20Pts games and 15 25+ pts games and is the only full season bench player to do that since Pierce .

The Pierce comparison was for Benhillboy . . who said that Crawford was doing something that hadn't been done since Ricky Pierce did it. No . . what Crawford is doing is almost IDENTICAL to what Jason Terry did last year . . . which is damn good.

Eddie House is instant offense and Crawford role is nothing like Eddie House and it shouldnt even have to be argued .

Eddie House isn't good enough to be a super 6th man like Jamal or Jason Terry either, which is why I didn't include him in the discussion. Eddie might as well be JJ Redick.

lol I know hes not as good as those players which is why it cracks me up everytime people start whining when someone points this out. Its not a coincidence has the same thing in common with those guys that JJ does .

And yes that plan originally was for Crawford to add onto what JJ brought to the table the majority of the season has seen Crawford picking up the JJ and the starters slack instead of adding on which is actually why we are not a 60 win team .

JJ's point production hasn't deviated one iota since the arrival of Crawford. Even though he's struggled recently, he's shot better overall than he has in 3 years. We have the #2 offense in the league ( according to offensive rating ). Defensively, we're 15th. That's why we're not a 60 win team. That, and because the team simply isn't good enough yet.

Yes Woody has developed JJ to a certain point but also has stunted his growth at the same time . JJ is still playing as if its 2007 . He may be our best defender perimeter when he decides to play defense but hes been coasting for an entire season now and everyone can see it which is why hes gotten more criticism that ever,.

The entire team coasts defensively. That's why we're ranked 15th, instead of a top 10 defense.

Al has improved individually

Josh has improved individually

Marvin has improved individually

JJ is in 2007

Bibby has declined due to age

And in 2007, JJ was a top 3 - 5 shooting guard in the league. And he's still at that level, with only Kobe, Wade, and arguably Brandon Roy and Manu Ginobli being better than him.

The starting 5 as a unit has regressed and its mainly due to JJ's lack of growth as a player . He didnt grow with the team the team grew around him now for this team to take another step they need a more vocal,driven, assertive JJ and they wont get it so where does that leave the team ? Im not talking stats he should be having his best season ever as a player MENTALLY ,as a leader and captain as he has the least amount of pressure to perform statistically than hes ever had this year .

Hawks starters, and their rank across the league:

2005 - 06: 27th . . http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/06/6/diffeff/1-1

2006 - 07: 26th . . http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/07/6/diffeff/1-1

2007 - 08: 12th . . http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/08/6/diffeff/1-1

2008 - 09: 14th . . http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/09/6/diffeff/1-1

2009 - 10: 5th . . http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/10/6/diffeff/1-1

But of course, the increase in the starters ranking has everything to do with Smoove and Horford, and nothing to do with JJ . . . because he didn't "grow as a player". If not "growing as a player" means that JJ didn't transform from All-Star to Superstar, then you're correct. In actuality though, JJ is having his best shooting year as a Hawk since 2006 - 07. And if Bibby and Marvin wouldn't have fallen off so much, his assists would easily be over 5 . . maybe 6 per game.

As for the ft line problem thats huge because if you max him for 5 years there is no such thing as a star swingman that cant get to the ft line past 30 being effective . It reminds me of Michael Finely 20 pts scorer who once he got to 30 because nothing but a spot up jump shooter and he still could play a role but not at max salary.

Because JJ is a pretty big dude ( 6 - 8 . . 240 ), he'll transition from SG to SF as he gets older. You may see him rely more on the post up game too, if we can get a guard in here to effectively run the show. If it turns out to be Teague, that'll be great. Teague could have control, while setting up JJ for open jumpers and post ups vs smaller defenders.

At worse, a 33 year old JJ will be Ray Allen . . a guy that isn't the #1 option anymore, but still enough of an offensive threat to be considered a borderline star player because of his ability to knock down open jumpers. Because JJ's game is based on actual skill, and not athleticism, he'll be a productive player for a long time. And in this league, overpaying for good talent is always better than trying to be cheap and fill that role with younger, possibly less talented players. That's why Orlando traded for a Vince Carter, and sent a young player like Courtney Lee packing.

Edited April 12, 2010 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I am LMAO that people want to ignore Crawford's career TS% and his defensive prowess (or lack thereof). He has been very good as the second option this season for the Hawks. I love the addition and can't wait to see him play more next year. But there is nothing...nothing...that has given me confidence he would be a better centerpiece for this team than JJ. JJ relieving pressure from Crawford has allowed Crawford to blossom this year whereas Crawford has helped JJ produce the same sort of scoring efficiency he has done numerous times without Crawford::

Bold = scored more ppg that season

2009-10 Jamal Crawford .573 TS%

2006-07 Joe Johnson .558 TS%

2004-05 Joe Johnson .556 TS%

2008-09 Jamal Crawford .545 TS%

2005-06 Jamal Crawford .544 TS%

2005-06 Joe Johnson .537 TS%

2009-10 Joe Johnson .535 TS%

2007-08 Joe Johnson .535 TS%

2008-09 Joe Johnson .534 TS%

2007-08 Jamal Crawford .528 TS%

2004-05 Jamal Crawford .521 TS%

2006-07 Jamal Crawford .517 TS%

2003-04 Jamal Crawford .485 TS%

(omitting years when young - i.e., first 3 seasons for both players)

It is clear that JJ has been the more productive scorer over their careers to date and that his teams have won more games. It is clear he is the better defender. It is clear that his scoring efficiency as a #1 option has been largely unaffected by Crawford's addition but that Crawford's efficiency has been dramatically impacted by the pressure taken off from Joe.

So why in the world would anyone want to get rid of Joe to install Jamal as the top guy? Who is hankering to watch a a Bibby/Crawford backcourt defending and to see Jamal getting double teamed? How would that translate into good things for us?

JJ + Jamal >>>> JJ > Jamal

Exactly.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The reason Jamal is the perfect 6th man is that he doesn't need to "warm up" before he can come in and score off the bench. That's quite a rare trait in the NBA.

Exactly again.

And that ended up being why I jumped off of the Salim Stoudamire bandwagon. When he got extended minutes ( especially in garbage time ), he produced at a high rate. But when you come off the bench, you need to come in making shots . . not miss 4 of your first 5, before you start warming up.

Crawford can come right into a game, and make 4 out of 5, which puts tremendous pressure on the opposing team. It's a dynamic that a lot of teams don't have.