Michael Wilbon comparing Kobe to Magic and MJ

[Admin]

Kind of stumbled across this blog post tonight and thought it was worth posting to see what others here think. Personally I think that MJ is the greatest I've ever seen with Magic and Bird a close 2a / 2b and even though I am not old enough to have seen Oscar Robertson I could probably see an argument for him as well.

I do think it's ridiculous that people call Lebron or Kobe the best ever and I have to wonder if they are old enough to have seen Magic and Bird and Nique in their primes. Kobe is without a doubt the best player in the NBA today, at least in my eyes, but he's not on the same level as the best ever.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/06/14/DI2010061404657.html

Arlington, Va.: After the NBA finals, Jerry West reiterated that he though Kobe Bryant was the best Lakers player, ever. "Kobe Bryant is the greatest Laker to ever play. Period. I love Magic Johnson and his contribution, but Magic Johnson had a lot more help, to be honest with you. He played with sometimes five All-Stars. Kobe Bryant is just a different talent. He will go down as one of the two or three greatest players of all time, I think." One would think that Jerry West's evaluation held some value.

Michael Wilbon: HI Everybody ... Coming to you from, well, home, from Washington, D.C. for the first time in awhile. Glad to be home, I think. The gentle breezes and low 70s by the ocean are hard to leave, especially when you return to 93 and humid as hell. I guess I've never gotten used to it even though this is my 32nd summer in D.C., or something like that ... Anyway, there are sooo many things to get to, including World Cup, John Wall being presumably drafted by the Wizards Thursday, the U.S. Open at Pebble, and the the NBA Finals. I'm starting with this question because there are so many in the que like it, about Magic Johnson and Kobe Bryant, or Kobe and Michael Jordan, or Kobe's place in the game, all-time, or as a Laker.

I've developed something of a consistent response on this now and it starts with this: Kobe Bryant is the best player in the game today. He's the most reliable winner, the best closer, the guy with the greatest killer instinct. he can do more stuff than anybody out there, even though LeBron James skill set seems to be greater. Anyway, Kobe's the best out there. He's probably one of the top 20 players all-time right now.

But, he ain't Magic Johnson. I'm beginning to disregard the opinion of all the Laker people in this area because they're vested in praising Kobe, in keeping him happy, and Jerry West is a kind, man...not a selfish instinct in his body ... and the greatest player/executive combination ever...But Kobe Bryant isn't close to as great or impactful a player as Magic Johnson. Hear me on this: It ain't close. And don't write any notes about me Kobe hating. Kobe is a great, great, great, great player. I LOVE watching him play, love that he has given me tons of access as a reporter/columnist, and I'm damn grateful for that. I like the verbal back-and-forth, which we've had for close to 10 years. I really and truly appreciate being able to watch Kobe Bryant up close.

But he's not Magic. Magic and Larry Bird invented the modern game of professional basketball with their redefining of offensive basketball through passing. They INVENTED THE GAME WE SEE TODAY. Kobe, in his career, has never had a game that touches Magic's NBA Finals Game 6 in Philly his ROOKIE season. As a rookie, playing on the road, in place of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, probably the third greatest center who ever lived (perhaps No. 2 behind Russell and ahead of Wilt), Magic had 42 points, 15 rebounds, seven assists, three steals ... Do people under 30 even know Magic did that 31 years ago? People under 40. Jerry West knows. I know. People now are too quick to forget the great players, forget how fundamentally sound they were, forget how much smarter they were than MOST players today with their AAU mentalities. Magic got to the Finals 9 times in 12 years. Hell, the only people he lost to in the playoffs were Jordan, Bird, Moses Malone, Moses and Julius Erving, Hakeem and I think the Portland TrailBlazers who twice got to the Finals. NINE FINALS IN 12 YEARS people. Yes, Magic played with better players. Pre-expansion, EVERYBODY played with better players. But you know what, if Magic had played on the Hawks, you think he and Dominique Wilkins wouldn't have won? If Magic had played with Alex English and Fat Lever in Denver, you think they wouldn't have won? Please. Stop it. And don't even get me started with the Jordan comparisons, which are silly. What one thing does Kobe Bryant do better than Michael Jordan did? The answer is none.

I love Kobe. He's the best out there. But there's NOTHING he does--handle the ball, shoot it, defend, rebound, pass--that's close to good as Michael Jordan. Tell me what it would be. Somebody tell me. Michael shot 54 percent twice in his career. Playing the same position against weaker defenders in an era where you CANNOT BY RULE be as physical, Kobe has never shot 48 percent. Do you realize how much more efficient 6 percent per year just on shooting makes a player? And I haven't even brought up Oscar and Elgin Baylor, players I only saw when they were on the downsides of their careers ... So, I respect Jerry West as much if not more than anybody out there. But I've watched Magic's entire career and I've watched Kobe's entire career, and on this I'm not interested in defering to anybody when it comes to constructing an argument for one or the other. I saw Magic. And I can't imagine people who actually watched both closely -- excpet for people in the Lakers family who have interests in supporting both players -- AS THEY SHOULD, by the way--who make a great case for Kobe being better than Magic.

Better? Kornheiser makes the case that if he had to construct a team and win one game FOR HIS LIFE he'd take Magic. And you know what? I have a difficult time going against that ... Because Magic, we know from Game 6 in Philly, could play all five positions. Can Kobe do that? No. Michael? No.

[AHF]

This is why I think Kobe gets due praise for his being at the top of the NBA today but is seriously overrated right now as far as his place historically. Better than Magic? Better than Jordan? Ummm...a decisive no on both accounts.

You give me that same Lakers team with Magic and the shooting guard equivalent of Derek Fisher (a true pro - tough, clutch, but not very prolific) and that series against Boston doesn't get near a second half deficit in Game 7 of the series. Pau Gasol is likely the best PF in Lakers history and Bynum, Odom, Artest, and Fisher are a fantastic core of 3rd-6th rotation players in this era.

[Packfill]

Kobe is very good, certaintly better than Dominique ever was, but not quite Jordan/Bird/Magic territory.

[NJHAWK]

I disagree. I think Kobe is right there with Jordan. The Lakers basically are Kobe, Pau who is an all star but nothing even remotely close to a superstar who never won a playoff game before teaming up with Kobe. The rest of that team are a bunch of guys who nobody wanted. Magic had Kareem, Worthy who were two hall of fame top 50 all time players. Magic played when this league was for real so he gets a nod for that. Jordan was great but again he won most of his titles when this league was even more watered down than it is now. I have no problem with Kobe being mentioned with those two on the same level.

[AHF]

The rest of that team are a bunch of guys who nobody wanted.

The Raptors reportedly want Andrew Bynum for Chris Bosh but Bynum is a player no one wants?

Fisher, Bynum, Odom, and Artest would all get significant interest as FAs, IMO.

This is not a one man show. It isn't the supporting cast Magic had but then again Kobe isn't exactly facing off against an in-their-prime opponent with Bird, McHale, Parrish, Ainge, etc. either.

You take the Lakers roster with Kobe and I'll take the Laker's roster with Jordan and I'll bet the house on winning that series.

[NJHAWK]

The Raptors reportedly want Andrew Bynum for Chris Bosh but Bynum is a player no one wants?

Fisher, Bynum, Odom, and Artest would all get significant interest as FAs, IMO.

This is not a one man show. It isn't the supporting cast Magic had but then again Kobe isn't exactly facing off against an in-their-prime opponent with Bird, McHale, Parrish, Ainge, etc. either.

You take the Lakers roster with Kobe and I'll take the Laker's roster with Jordan and I'll bet the house on winning that series.

Odom and Artest are cast offs because of they're mental problems. Bynum is coveted because of potential. Think about it, the Celtics have 3 hall of famers and if Rondo stays on his playoff track the rest of his career then they have 4 hall of famers. The Lakers have one but that one was good enough.

[AHF]

Odom and Artest are cast offs because of they're mental problems. Bynum is coveted because of potential. Think about it, the Celtics have 3 hall of famers and if Rondo stays on his playoff track the rest of his career then they have 4 hall of famers. The Lakers have one but that one was good enough.

2010 Garnett, Pierce and Ray Allen are not HOFers anymore than saying the Celtics won back in the 80s with a hall of famer - Bill Walton.

Kobe > Pierce

Bynum > Perkins

Gasol = Garnett

Artest > Allen

Odom > Wallace

Rondo > Fisher

Where Boston held an edge was their end of the rotation players in Big Baby, Nate Robinson, etc. are better than the end of the rotation guys for LA. The top 6 players are clear talent edge to the Lakers.

[NJHAWK]

Two quick things, Magic was in no way overated but him playing 5 positions in that game is clearly overated and overstated. He jumped center but myth is greater than truth. Also the one guy Wilbun didnt mention is a guy who you would have to add two of these guys ( Kobe and MJ ) titles together to reach his total and thats Bill Russell. He doesnt even have enough fingers for his rings, thats sick.

[NJHAWK]

2010 Garnett, Pierce and Ray Allen are not HOFers anymore than saying the Celtics won back in the 80s with a hall of famer - Bill Walton.

Kobe > Pierce

Bynum > Perkins

Gasol = Garnett

Artest > Allen

Odom > Wallace

Rondo > Fisher

Where Boston held an edge was their end of the rotation players in Big Baby, Nate Robinson, etc. are better than the end of the rotation guys for LA. The top 6 players are clear talent edge to the Lakers.

Those non hall of famers in 2010 that you just compared to a washed up Bill Walton sure had no problem dismantling the Cavs and the Magic with Lebra and Dwight Howard. Its just opinion but I think you are overrating the Laker playes. Nobody wanted Artest or Odom and Gasol was traded for peanuts because of his rep for being a soft Euro big man. Kobe is a once in a generation type player and almost as important leader and will of that team. Id love to see the Lakers even make the playoffs without him. I know Magic played when the league was great but he always had jhall of famers playing with him. If your going to kill Kobe because he has no Bird like nemisis then what do you use for Jordans #1 rival? John Starks?

[AHF]

I am not killing Kobe. His actual game and actual play just doesn't measure up to Magic's or Jordan's. Kobe is a great player, but not on their level. That is why he has a career playoff WS/48 of 0.161 compared to Jordan's playoff WS/48 of 0.225 and Magic's WS/48 of 0.208.

Kobe's WS/48 in the playoffs compares to guys like Paul Pierce WS/48 0.144 or Dwyane Wade 0.178 WS/48.

(Jordan's biggest rivals: Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, etc.)

[NJHAWK]

(Jordan's biggest rivals: Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, etc.)

I dont know why you would list Hakeem since they never met in the playoffs. When Isiah and Birds teams were in they're prime they beat MJ. Magic played in an era with more legendary teams to battle for titles, no doubt about it he wins there. Jordan started winning his when the great Laker, Piston and Celtic teams were starting the downside of they're great players careers.

He did beat an injury riddled Laker team that was at its sunset. Kobe did beat the Spurs who while arent a flashy team of legend they certainly have the hardware to prove they were one. To me all 3 guys all belong on the front page of nba history with a few others. You have to give Bill Russell his own centerfold though. .

[AHF]

I dont know why you would list Hakeem since they never met in the playoffs. When Isiah and Birds teams were in they're prime they beat MJ. Magic played in an era with more legendary teams to battle for titles, no doubt about it he wins there. Jordan started winning his when the great Laker, Piston and Celtic teams were starting the downside of they're great players careers.

He did beat an injury riddled Laker team that was at its sunset. Kobe did beat the Spurs who while arent a flashy team of legend they certainly have the hardware to prove they were one. To me all 3 guys all belong on the front page of nba history with a few others. You have to give Bill Russell his own centerfold though. .

To me, Jordan and Magic belong with Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Robertson and the absolute cream of the crop.

Kobe belongs in the discussion of the next tier with guys like Duncan, Hakeem, K. Malone, Cousy, Stockton, Isiah, Pettit, and others. Kobe doesn't necessarily rank at that top of that group for me either but is in the realm of reasonable discussion. Personally, I still have Shaq > Kobe for their careers (Shaq has a playoff WS/48: 0.184 compared to Kobe's 0.161 just for reference).

Edited June 25, 2010 by AHF

[HawksFan87]

as long as he doesn't compare Joe to MJ, no problem here :headphones:

Also, Put it like this Kobe haters, there will be VERY few players who will duplicate what he has done in this league..

[HAWKSFAN89]

Kobe definitely deserves the argument for being better than Magic for sure, and in my opinion. He has accomplished a lot career in his career, and it isn't even over yet.

But Jordan? I dunno. Thats up for debate. Watching Jordan game after game and then watching Kobe game for game speaks for itself. I don't think i've ever seen Jordan have an off-night.

All and all I say this discussion deserves another debate when Kobe hangs em' up.

[AHF]

Kobe definitely deserves the argument for being better than Magic for sure, and in my opinion. He has accomplished a lot career in his career, and it isn't even over yet.

But Jordan? I dunno. Thats up for debate. Watching Jordan game after game and then watching Kobe game for game speaks for itself. I don't think i've ever seen Jordan have an off-night.

Did you watch Magic game after game?

[Diesel]

I disagree. I think Kobe is right there with Jordan. The Lakers basically are Kobe, Pau who is an all star but nothing even remotely close to a superstar who never won a playoff game before teaming up with Kobe. The rest of that team are a bunch of guys who nobody wanted. Magic had Kareem, Worthy who were two hall of fame top 50 all time players. Magic played when this league was for real so he gets a nod for that. Jordan was great but again he won most of his titles when this league was even more watered down than it is now. I have no problem with Kobe being mentioned with those two on the same level.

I love basketball History.

I love the characters.

The thing that stands out in the Jordan vs. Kobe comparison. Jordan reached levels of competitiveness that Kobe hasn't seen yet.

Jordan would not lose. He willed his teams to wins. Kobe is glad to have good teammates. I say that Pippen is better than Pau but different to. I say that Horace/Rodman vs. Odom is a win for the Lakers....In that Odom is capable of being the best player on the floor. Fisher vs. Kerr/Harper/Paxson is a win for the Lakers.

I think that Jordan really didn't have to rely on his parts as much as Kobe does. Jordan was too competitive to do that.

[dlpin]

Two quick things, Magic was in no way overated but him playing 5 positions in that game is clearly overated and overstated. He jumped center but myth is greater than truth. Also the one guy Wilbun didnt mention is a guy who you would have to add two of these guys ( Kobe and MJ ) titles together to reach his total and thats Bill Russell. He doesnt even have enough fingers for his rings, thats sick.

He jumped center, guarded Malone on D and played in the post on O. Sounds like playing center to me.

Those non hall of famers in 2010 that you just compared to a washed up Bill Walton sure had no problem dismantling the Cavs and the Magic with Lebra and Dwight Howard. Its just opinion but I think you are overrating the Laker playes. Nobody wanted Artest or Odom and Gasol was traded for peanuts because of his rep for being a soft Euro big man. Kobe is a once in a generation type player and almost as important leader and will of that team. Id love to see the Lakers even make the playoffs without him. I know Magic played when the league was great but he always had jhall of famers playing with him. If your going to kill Kobe because he has no Bird like nemisis then what do you use for Jordans #1 rival? John Starks?

It is false that no one wanted Artest. He had simply decided that he was going to go to the Lakers no matter what. He is a former defensive player of the year who is just 30.

Gasol was traded for peanuts because the cheap Memphis owner wanted to get rid of his contract. He led a mediocre Memphis team to 50 wins and led them to the playoffs in 05.

Odom is a career 15 and 9 guy who would be a starter in most teams.

Bynum is one of the best young centers in the game, and you can see how his absence affected the lakers when he was hurt in the finals.

And let's not forget that this lakers team played the blazers, the spurs, at the Jazz, the warrior and the celtics without Kobe, and the went 4-1, with all wins by double digits and a single loss by 1 point.

Finally, let's but it this way:

Jordan's average in the finals was 33.6 points per game. Kobe has only scored more than that in a finals game 4 times in his career. 7 finals appearances, 38 finals games and he only did better than MJ's AVERAGE 4 times. I mean, if he was singlehandedly carrying his team, he would have at least scored more than that, right?

Kobe has had a bunch of 8 point, 11 points, 15 point finals performances. Jordan's never scored less than 20 in a finals game.

I hated Jordan, and every time I wished he would lose he won.

[BusBoyIsBack]

I love basketball History.

I love the characters.

The thing that stands out in the Jordan vs. Kobe comparison. Jordan reached levels of competitiveness that Kobe hasn't seen yet.

Jordan would not lose. He willed his teams to wins. Kobe is glad to have good teammates. I say that Pippen is better than Pau but different to. I say that Horace/Rodman vs. Odom is a win for the Lakers....In that Odom is capable of being the best player on the floor. Fisher vs. Kerr/Harper/Paxson is a win for the Lakers.

I think that Jordan really didn't have to rely on his parts as much as Kobe does. Jordan was too competitive to do that.

Kobe has no business being mentioned as a top 5 great.. He was a sidekick to Shaq for his first 3 rings. He just won a Finals MVP shooting 6 for 24 in the biggest game of his career. So for people saying he has no help,please. Gasol had as many win shares as Kobe over the last 3 years. .