Al Horford: ‘I am going to war with who I’ve got’

[Joker]

I will give Duncan maybe 2 of the 4 rings. Manu carried them one year and Parker was lights out another. Duncan is a good team guy who early in his career was able to play high post and have the offense funneled through him. If Malone was so 1-dimensional, why couldn't he be stopped? I mean, if Malone couldn't create for himself, stopping him should have been easier than stopping Tracy McGrady.

Here's an excerpt about Malolne:

"Nineteen years in the NBA, 25 points and 10 rebounds as the average. That's ... I'm sorry, but that's astonishing. Those are numbers that make you think twice (three times, four times; every damn day) when you decide to pass on handing Malone a starting slot on your all-time team. Nineteen years, and he could have played a few more. Nineteen years, and his per-minute efficiency even in the lone gimpy year of his career at age 40 was better than 40 percent of today's starting power forwards.

Nineteen years, and he never let up. He wasn't a product of the system, he was the system. He set the screens, he made the moves, and he finished from everywhere. He also finished 1,459 points shy of breaking Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's all-time scoring record, and though the idea behind someone like Malone (just one of the greats, your instinct tells you) topping what might have been the best player at the most important position this game has, Malone would have been a rightful and deserved owner of that record had he hung around."

Now there are some points we need to clear up...

We're saying Best PF of all time. First question, is Timmy D. Really a PF? Ralph Sampson played PF when he played with Hakeem, but everywhere else in the world, he was a C. I think the same is true of Timmy D.

Second, Rings aside, Timmy D has how many league MVPs? Malone has how many?

Right now, Timmy D. will finish his 13th season at about 20/8.5 for his career. Karl Malone's 25 and 10 is awesome over 19 seasons. Not to mention 52% to 50%.

Finally. Malone played during the Jordan years. Teams were just better. I'm talking Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Isiah, Reggie, Ewing, etc... These are the players of that time. Duncan has had a much easier road.

In that era, especially the 80's, it was easy to score in the NBA. You had guys who would be at best 10 PPG guys in today's game who would be scoring 24 PPG in the middle and late 80's. Timmy only played Center once Rasho was too sorry at the position and they rather pull in a PF and move Duncan to Center. Once Tiago gets to SA, expect Duncan to go back to PF. The rest is opinion base. We can go into a crap load of adv stats and analytics but we will still feel our player> your player.

[AHF]

Right now, Timmy D. will finish his 13th season at about 20/8.5 for his career. Karl Malone's 25 and 10 is awesome over 19 seasons. Not to mention 52% to 50%.

??

Duncan's exact averages after 13 seasons are 21.1 ppg and 11.6 rpg along with 2.5 bpg (compared to Karl's 0.8 bpg). The rebounding is what especially confuses me. Duncan has averaged double figures in rebounding in 13 of 13 seasons. Malone did that in 10 of 19 seasons and was under 10 rpg in 9 of those 19 seasons.

To me that is what elevates Duncan over Malone - he was the better rebounder and interior defender and that is a rare and incredibly valuable commodity in any generation of the NBA. I can accept excluding Duncan from consideration as a "PF" before I buy off on him being a bigger impact player in his prime than Malone either because Malone was the greater scorer or because he had better longevity. Duncan was one of the great centers playing PF and a great C is better than a great PF because of that impact on the interior. If you reject positions entirely, I rank Duncan slightly higher due to his impact on both ends of the floor but the difference isn't much because Malone was fantastic.

Back to the Hawks, Diesel is right that Pettit was the man for the Hawks franchise.

[Dsinner]

You guys are absolutely insane to discredit MJ as the greatest ever simply because he was a SG. Look at his supporting cast. Nearly every one of the players you are mentioning were on teams that were asolutely loaded. MJ had Pippen and that's it. And this isn't coming from an MJ "hugger" as I absolutely loathed the guy. MJ was the best ever because he made every single player on his team better.

Wilt and Kareem had the advantage of being freaks of nature especially in their era. MJ was an average sized SG who didn't have a single athletic superior advantage over any other player in his era. Sure he was a great leaper and athlete but not a "freak" by any measure. Add that to the fact that his supporting cast was by far the weakest of any "dynasty" MVP and IMO the "best ever" title should go to MJ.

I'm going to go blow chunks now.

[Diesel]

You guys are absolutely insane to discredit MJ as the greatest ever simply because he was a SG. Look at his supporting cast. Nearly every one of the players you are mentioning were on teams that were asolutely loaded. MJ had Pippen and that's it. And this isn't coming from an MJ "hugger" as I absolutely loathed the guy. MJ was the best ever because he made every single player on his team better.

Wilt and Kareem had the advantage of being freaks of nature especially in their era. MJ was an average sized SG who didn't have a single athletic superior advantage over any other player in his era. Sure he was a great leaper and athlete but not a "freak" by any measure. Add that to the fact that his supporting cast was by far the weakest of any "dynasty" MVP and IMO the "best ever" title should go to MJ.

I'm going to go blow chunks now.

I don't discredit Jordan. In fact, I think it's because of Jordan, Malone didn't win 2 rings. I just think that Jordan is the greatest 2 guard ever and probably the 2nd or 3rd best player to every play the game. I say it goes Kareem, Russell, and Jordan with Kareem vs. Russell as being a wash. I think Wilt is 4th and then on down the line. I think Timmy D gets more credit than he should get because he was a C playing PF and because of the lack of competition (at his position and the C position) during his time. The only dominant C of Timmy D's time was Shaq and Timmy D had to wait til Shaq was having an off year to wni championships.

Here's the Timmy D era...

2006-07

San Antonio Spurs

Cleveland Cavaliers

4-0

Tony Parker, San Antonio

2005-06

Miami Heat

Dallas Mavericks

4-2

Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat

2004-05

San Antonio Spurs

Detroit Pistons

4-3

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

2003-04

Detroit Pistons

Los Angeles Lakers

4-1

Chauncey Billups, Detroit Pistons

2002-03

San Antonio Spurs

New Jersey Nets

4-2

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

2001-02

Los Angeles Lakers

New Jersey Nets

4-0

Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles

2000-01

Los Angeles Lakers

Philadelphia 76ers

4-1

Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles

1999-00

Los Angeles Lakers

Indiana Pacers

4-2

Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles

1998-99

San Antonio Spurs

New York Knicks

4-1

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

I think if you want to give Duncan his due... it was 2002. I that year, he did beat the Lakers and the Mavs at full steam. But then they had the NJ nets... It was not the most impressive team to be matched up with but they were definitely the best in the East.

1998 = Robinson. When KG was shutting down Duncan in the first round of the playoffs, it was DRob who stepped up and carried his team. Duncan carried the team during the finals, but without DRob, there would have been no finals. 2004.. Manu got shorted.

[gsuteke]

nice thread - page 7 atleast

[AHF]

You guys are absolutely insane to discredit MJ as the greatest ever simply because he was a SG. Look at his supporting cast. Nearly every one of the players you are mentioning were on teams that were asolutely loaded. MJ had Pippen and that's it. And this isn't coming from an MJ "hugger" as I absolutely loathed the guy. MJ was the best ever because he made every single player on his team better.

Wilt and Kareem had the advantage of being freaks of nature especially in their era. MJ was an average sized SG who didn't have a single athletic superior advantage over any other player in his era. Sure he was a great leaper and athlete but not a "freak" by any measure. Add that to the fact that his supporting cast was by far the weakest of any "dynasty" MVP and IMO the "best ever" title should go to MJ.

I'm going to go blow chunks now.

MJ is my pick for best ever, but his "by the far the weakest" supporting cast did go 55-27 without him in the 1993-94 season. I would generally think that losing the best player in NBA history from the weakest supporting cast of any "dynasty" MVP would mean a greater falloff than 57-25 with Jordan to 55-27 without Jordan.

For example, Shaq's Magic squad lost 15 more games when he went to LA.

I would also nitpick about MJ not having athletic advantages over his peers, but fundamentally it was his work ethic and mental approach to the game that sets him apart (as it is for most of the all-time greats).