Marketing 101: Attendance

[Guest]

A BRT system along 75 would actually be a great solution for attending sporting events, if nothing else - it's a relatively cheap way to ensure that people could get from the northern suburbs to the arena without risking sitting in traffic for an hour.

I know that the Nationals (maybe not literally affiliated with them) have some sort of a busing option from the Chesapeake area up to DC for games. You sign up where you get a ride to and from the game (I think its like 3 or 4 hours each way), they get you a meal and tickets. Now wouldn't you think if the ASG had any brains they would at least test out if this would be worthwhile to the suburbs? Rent out a few buses, offer tickets to Hawks games that are inclusive of the ride to and from the game at some popular locations and get into your suburban market. Hell since they are cheapskates they could try and petition the city for a subsidy from the city for this. They would be offering tickets at a higher monetary price, but its substantially lowering the cost that a lot of the suburban fans are facing.

When Orlando built their new arena, their owner was adamant about getting a high speed rail system to connect areas like Tampa to their arena. The Bobcats are attempting to do this right now with other areas of North Carolina. Some franchises are fortunate enough to have the government come in and help out with their attendance. Well, you don't always have to depend on the government to do things and just test out different strategies to see if that helps your attendance. The ASG would rather raise prices, complain about the fans, and then raise prices again. The way the ASG operates baffles me to no end, the only non-basketball related action they have done that I liked during their entire existence is outsourcing their ticketing to that dynamic pricing firm.

[Guest]

Since it's clear that many of the Hawks' most dedicated fans struggle to articulate any clear benefits for attending the games (in lieu of rooting & sniping from afar via live TV), my next supposition involves... live TV. Could eliminating live regional broadcasts of home games (on SportsSouth/FoxSports) create a measurable bump in attendance?

That is hitting the black-out policy of the NFL. This would certainly have an affect, although I would be curious if we see some sort of an agreement between bars/restaurants in Atlanta to buy unsold tickets.

The genius behind this idea would be that it changes the objective function that the ASG would attempt to maximize over. The ASG would have to adjust for some sort of a threshold they must hit in attendance, trigging a full house would then also trigger in revenue from a regional television market. If bars/restaurants are not allowed to buy unsold tickets then I believe for Atlanta this policy would encourage the ASG to reduce ticket prices. This is likely to occur in all markets who do not usually sell-out games. If bars/restaurants are allowed to buy unsold tickets, well then you have a unified group where the costs are spread throughout a large number of establishments who would bear the cost. This would make the price direction ambiguous.

I think it is unclear what would happen in markets where games are continually sold-out. My gut tells me that we actually shouldn't see a change, if teams continually have sold-out crowds then even without the blackout policies they are facing excess demand and still maximizing profits. They don't seem to have any incentive to raise their price any higher when faced with the blackout scenario because they would presumably be maximizing over the same set. They've already crossed over the threshold of getting television revenue, so there are no extra constraints in their maximization.

[spotatl]

Does anyone have the ratings handy for the Hawks games? I have absolutely no idea how many people watch a Wednesday night hawks game vs a mediocre team.

To me the core problem is that people in Atlanta simply don't care about the Hawks enough to go out of their way to see them. The team isn't a championship contender and isn't making moves trying to become one. They don't have an influx of young talent that could turn them into one in the future. They are a nice team that will win most of their games. Thats not enough to get people excited in this town.

Edited December 6, 2010 by spotatl

[niremetal]

I know that the Nationals (maybe not literally affiliated with them) have some sort of a busing option from the Chesapeake area up to DC for games. You sign up where you get a ride to and from the game (I think its like 3 or 4 hours each way), they get you a meal and tickets. Now wouldn't you think if the ASG had any brains they would at least test out if this would be worthwhile to the suburbs? Rent out a few buses, offer tickets to Hawks games that are inclusive of the ride to and from the game at some popular locations and get into your suburban market. Hell since they are cheapskates they could try and petition the city for a subsidy from the city for this. They would be offering tickets at a higher monetary price, but its substantially lowering the cost that a lot of the suburban fans are facing.

When Orlando built their new arena, their owner was adamant about getting a high speed rail system to connect areas like Tampa to their arena. The Bobcats are attempting to do this right now with other areas of North Carolina. Some franchises are fortunate enough to have the government come in and help out with their attendance. Well, you don't always have to depend on the government to do things and just test out different strategies to see if that helps your attendance. The ASG would rather raise prices, complain about the fans, and then raise prices again. The way the ASG operates baffles me to no end, the only non-basketball related action they have done that I liked during their entire existence is outsourcing their ticketing to that dynamic pricing firm.

Not sure if you meant the Redskins rather than the Nationals. The Nationals actually have an arena within walking distance of a Green Line subway stop, and the Metro and MARC systems make it very easy to get there from anywhere in the state. I know some non-affiliated groups have tried charter busing schemes aimed at people from the "neutral" parts of Maryland (ie not Baltimore), but I don't know how successful they've been. FedEx Field is a different matter - the suburban location of the stadium means that rail access is terrible (it's more than a 1-mile walk from the nearest station), and it's on one of the few segments of the Beltway without HOV lanes. I think they tried to do busing from both the Virginia coast and the Chesapeake, but neither was too fruitful and they discontinued it, although I'm sure there are charter companies that do the same thing. All the talk I've heard is that they are hoping to get a new stadium built in DC (probably, like Nationals Ballpark, near the Navy Yard), which is pretty embarrassing considering the size and cost of FedEx Field, which was built just over a decade ago.

In any case, it's totally apples and oranges between different pro sports. I've seen you use examples from different sports in different cities as things you think the Hawks should try (and also make arguments that assume high cross-elasticity between sports within cities), but the dynamics of attendance for different sports and in different cities vary immensely. I won't insult your intelligence by making a litany of the differences, but you know they're there.

As for the city itself, it's not as if the ASG-led Hawks are breaking new ground in having poor attendance. The Hawks have gone through 4 different owners in the past 40 years, and never once has the Hawks' attendance cracked the top third of the NBA. Atlanta's other pro sports teams' attendance rankings also consistently lag behind their rankings in the standings. By comparison, the teams in the northeast US, with rare exception, have attendance that almost invariably ranks higher than their position in the standings. The Falcons are coming off back-to-back winning seasons and have the best record in the NFL right now, but they are currently 17th in attendance. The Braves' attendance troubles in playoff games in the late 90s and early 2000s was an embarrassment that would be beyond unimaginable in Philly, DC, or Boston. And the Hawks finished 27th in attendance in 1997 despite winning 56 games (to me, that was the most embarrassing era for Hawks attendance, not today); even in the age of Nique, we couldn't crack the top third of the league in attendance when we were won 57 games.

I definitely agree that ASG does a poor job marketing the team. They make a lot of bad decisions both in basketball operations and in the marketing of the team. But it's tough to argue that that's the main driving force behind the Hawks' attendance woes. The economics of pro sports, like those for most businesses, turn first and foremost on location. Atlanta is a sprawling metropolitan area with terrible public transportation, atrocious traffic, and a population that mostly was born elsewhere. ASG might be able to do better at mitigating those problems, but they can't erase them.

Edited December 7, 2010 by niremetal

[AHF]

The rationale 20 years ago in Marietta was not having the "wrong element" coming out to the suburbs.

[spotatl]

I think the problem for the Hawks is just a lack of interest. They aren't a championship contender and aren't even particularly trying to be. They aren't building for the future. They are a solid team that should win most of their home games and when it comes down to it thats not enough to get people to feel like they have to go see them in person or else they are missing out. And from that perspective I don't think that doing a TV blackout would help- They need fans to tune in to get interested in the team. But really, what reason has the team given anyone to think they are better than last season?

[spotatl]

Oh- and for anyone who actually cares about the ticket price thing. Its difficult to find Hawks ticket pricing from last year to compare but there was an AJC article that said the only tickets that had their prices raised were in the VIP seating sections. All other lower level tickets were actually lowered on average 3% and I believe upper level tickets were unchanged. Overall, ticket prices went up by just .08%. So that would 8 cents on a $100 ticket.

Edited December 7, 2010 by spotatl

[AHF]

Oh- and for anyone who actually cares about the ticket price thing. Its difficult to find Hawks ticket pricing from last year to compare but there was an AJC article that said the only tickets that had their prices raised were in the VIP seating sections. All other lower level tickets were actually lowered on average 3% and I believe upper level tickets were unchanged. Overall, ticket prices went up by just .08%.

It may be useful to link to the article for discussion. Thanks!

[spotatl]

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/some-hawks-season-ticket-387708.html

Sounds like the premium tickets did get a big bump, but as those would normally be purchased by companies looking to impress clients that seems like a pretty reasonable way of going about it.

[AHF]

Thanks. I thought it was notable that there was a 3% decrease in the cost of non-VIP lower level tickets and that the Hawks' marketing thought consumers were price sensitive on the walk-up sales.

[Dejay]

I think the problem for the Hawks is just a lack of interest. They aren't a championship contender and aren't even particularly trying to be. They aren't building for the future. They are a solid team that should win most of their home games and when it comes down to it thats not enough to get people to feel like they have to go see them in person or else they are missing out. And from that perspective I don't think that doing a TV blackout would help- They need fans to tune in to get interested in the team. But really, what reason has the team given anyone to think they are better than last season?

That's it. The reason why folks are staying away in droves is because they feel as if the organization is satisfied with the status quo, which hasn't translated to Finals appearances and world titles. After last spring's debacle against Orlando, it was crystal-clear that this team wasn't a serious contender for anything worth mentioning and how do they respond in the offseason? Being leveraged by JJ into giving him a max deal, selling off a draft pick, giving away Childress, signing Woodson's assistant to the lowest coaching contract in the league, and filling out the roster with low-end minimum salary guys. Then, follow that up with its GM stating that they're an elite team because they got to the second round (albeit against a squad missing its two best players). Is that supposed to inspire confidence with a fanbase who, like I stated earlier, knows the difference between a phony and the real McCoy (just ask the Braves)?

The gig is up, the genie's out the bottle now. This team isn't a real contender, the fans know it and won't be duped into showing up until that changes (unless Kobe or Lebron is in town). Talking about how far they've come since the Dion Glover days won't get an extra ticket bought in this town when they're watching squads who weren't even in existance 25 years ago reach the Finals and then some (see Magic and Heat). Many of the locals are asking the same questions I am; when will it be our turn to sit at the head of the table?

[Guest]

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/some-hawks-season-ticket-387708.html

Sounds like the premium tickets did get a big bump, but as those would normally be purchased by companies looking to impress clients that seems like a pretty reasonable way of going about it.

You are referencing an article from March, when ticket prices were not even set. This was also before the Hawks announced they were outsourcing tickets. This is also incorrect information. What you should be looking at is the article I have posted twice already and now a third time. Here is the method for calculating average ticket cost:

Average ticket price verage ticket price represents a weighted average of season ticket prices for general seating categories, determined by factoring the tickets in each price range as a percentage of the total number of seats in each stadium. Premium seating (tickets that come with at least one added amenity) are not included in the ticket average, and for the NBA, not included in the chart. Luxury suites are also excluded from the survey. Season-ticket pricing is used for any team that offers some or all tickets at lower prices for customers who buy season tickets. Please e-mail TMR at jgreenberg@teammarketing.com if you have any questions about the FCI. Historical information is available on our Web site, teammarketing.com.

Take note that the ticket prices that your article refers to as increasing by nearly 50 percent is not included. Again, the premium seats are not included in average ticket price. Now if you want to view that the Atlanta Hawks increased their ticket prices, click on this hyperlink and you will see that the Hawks have increased their average ticket prices. Again, you should click on this hyperlink to see that the Hawks have increased their average ticket prices.

I am currently emailing the teammarketing.com people to get more information. For instance, one might question their methodology for dynamic pricing. I am uncertain how the Hawks ticketing is being priced since they hired a new company to handle this. So it is possible teammarketing is not accounting for the Hawks changing prices and they may have taken a snapshot of the ticket prices for a game where the Hawks raised prices. However, the Hawks have already announced with their new ticket prices they will set a lower bound that they will not go under because of concern about the season ticket holders being annoyed with ticket prices less than what they paid. This indicates that the lower bound of ticket prices would be found here: http://www.hawksseasontickets.com/seating_pricing.php . At first glance, it appears the lower ticket prices (worse seats) have decreased in price for "full season" but increased prices in "half season". From memory, it appears these prices are more expensive especially when you consider the ASG is packaging preseason games into season tickets when in the past they haven't done that. I believe any reasonable person would conclude the Hawks ticket prices have increased as a whole, there may be a few individual exceptions but that is missing the idea behind "average ticket prices" and the effect that these price decreases actually have on the "average ticket prices".

[spotatl]

In your link they say they exclude luxury suites and seats that come with "at least one amenity". SO that would imply that the VIP seating would still count in their analysis except for the new seats that include food or drinks.

If anyone can find the link to last seasons season ticket pricing that would be great.

Edited December 8, 2010 by spotatl

[Guest]

In your link they say they exclude luxury suites and seats that come with "at least one amenity". SO that would imply that the VIP seating would still count in their analysis except for the new seats that include food or drinks.

If anyone can find the link to last seasons season ticket pricing that would be great.

From your 9 month old article:

To soften the blow, the Hawks are offering premium-seat holders incentives that include food and beverages in the cost of the ticket.

Again, those 50% increase seats are not included in the "average ticket price". The article you cite is clearly false seeing as the information was posted before the Hawks hired Qcue (the ticket pricing company).

If you want to put more belief in a 9 month article than one from an unbiased company produced on November 24th then so be it, you can only lead a horse to the water.

[spotatl]

As far as I know, not all club seats come with free food or drinks. There are new tickets that are similar to the Braves all you can eat seats but I don't think that all of them do. But I can't find any club seats for sale either through ticketmaster or through the ticket exchange. (Ive been on the club level in the past but not this season) There are some for sale on craigslist and they don't mention any free food or drinks and I feel pretty confident that they would just because people would pay more for the tickets then.

Maybe that website counts "in seat service" as an amenity, but I really don't know what their methodology is. So thats why I don't put much stock in 1 number from a random website.

Really the information that I find interesting is what seats went up in price and which seats went down. Looking at season tickets would probably give the most accurate view but I haven't been able to find any ticket pricing info for last season.

Edited December 8, 2010 by spotatl

[evilinkblot]

My season tickets increased $1 per seat per game from last year to this year.

However, the benefits went up. I now have free parking at CNN Center Lower Level ($15 value)

I have a Hawks ticket bank for $400 to purchase tickets for other games

I get 4 pairs of tickets for 4 Thrasher games.

I didn't have any of those bennies last year.

[Guest]

As far as I know, not all club seats come with free food or drinks.

That is likely true, but those are not the seats that MC was referring to in his article.

And teammarketing.com a random website? They are the inventors of the Fan Cost Index which is widely used in pro sports. I actually don't know of a sports team that doesn't take into account FCI, which tells you that all sports teams deal with teammarketing.com. Are you really implying that teammarketing.com is some uncredible source on this matter? That is absolutely laughable.

[spotatl]

evilinkblot- thanks for posting that information. Do you mind saying what section your seats are in? It definitely sounds like they made the tickets a better deal.

[spotatl]

Resident Capologist- what I am interested in is what tickets went up in price, went down in price, or remained the same. Your link doesn't provide any information along these lines. If you think that people are staying away because ticket prices increased- lets see which tickets actually increased and by how much. In evilinblot's case I don't think that people are staying away because of a $1 increase considering all the other stuff he was given.

Edited December 8, 2010 by spotatl

[Guest]

Resident Capologist- what I am interested in is what tickets went up in price, went down in price, or remained the same. Your link doesn't provide any information along these lines. If you think that people are staying away because ticket prices increased- lets see which tickets actually increased and by how much. In evilinblot's case I don't think that people are staying away because of a $1 increase considering all the other stuff he was given.

You realize I didn't go out of my way to request a title of "Resident Capologist"? I don't claim to be an expert or anything of that nature, however I have had extensive posts related to the cap that I imagine many on this board found helpful. If you had been on this board longer than a year you would have realized this. For some reason this frustrates you as this is not the first time you have made some sort of mention to this, jealous or something?

In evilinkbot's case, you might want to dig deeper into the situation. For instance, how about whether or not the amenities are offered to only renewing season ticket holder's. When you look on www.hawksseasontickets.com there is no mention of any of the benefits that evilinkbot claims, it would appear to me if they offer those then the Hawks would want to advertise this. I think its more likely to be renewing benefits seeing how businessmen like the ASG adhere to the "its cheaper to keep a customer than attract a new one". And I don't know if there are any actual "benefits" outside of the free parking. Giving someone a $400 ticket bank when they have season tickets? That seems odd, why not just decrease the price by $400? Oh thats right, because the marginal cost of that $400 ticket bank is close to $0 for the ASG. Tickets to the Thrashers? Well, what use does that have towards being a Hawks fan? This is simply a bundling strategy. The actual benefits that the Hawks claim are not what evilinkbot says: http://www.nba.com/hawks/tickets/full_season_benefits_1011.html which further leads me to believe its a renew strategy.