Tired of Excuses for This Team

[Joker]

What is the source of the word you got?

(Also, I am not sure I understand how the trade involves Chills when you say instantly that he can't be traded here. Are you talking about a three-way rumor?)

From a buddy in the league office. The same one I usually speak to. The one that told me about Jamal C. talk of getting traded to Atlanta a week before it happened, Amare potential trade to Atlanta, and CP3 and Melo will be on the market which both were for a little bit. The same one I normally get my info from. He send me a text about a potential trade but there are things holding it up from our end. Also a 3rd team is suppose to be involved. He thinks it is the Squrs but could be another team. But he said they had talks and met to discuss face to face in New York but nothing is official at this point. He said Atlanta really values Marvin a lot. They want a lot for Marvin and Smoove is untouchable but he said that last time we spoke on the phone. Phoenix wants to rebuild as soon as possible and Nash wants out. I asked him about Melo to Atlanta and he said Atlanta not going to trade anyone in their core. He also said CP3 is not on the market for what he knows right now. I was hoping otherwise. He said they want to see what they can do (NOH) in the off season first which is what the media was speculating as well.

Edit

Edited January 4, 2011 by nbasuperstar40

[Joker]

What is the source of the word you got?

(Also, I am not sure I understand how the trade involves Chills when you say instantly that he can't be traded here. Are you talking about a three-way rumor?)

It's a could be way larger. It seems like three to four way deal. For Atlanta, it's a three way, I know that much. We are just dealing with Phx and another team. Atlanta would get Nash Hill, and another player from another team which would put them in the LT for 2011-12. I hope the other player is a center, even if they are just average. Atlanta would trade Marvin and Crawford which Atlanta been asking a mansion for. Especially Crawford. They want to keep Marvin from what he was texting. Teague, Smith, Joe, and Horford are untouchable from what he's hearing.

I don't understand what he meant. He said we traded him so we can't trade for him in the season. It wasn't something I asked for him to go into detail with. Someone here who knows the CBA could go into further detail.

Edited January 4, 2011 by nbasuperstar40

[mrhonline]

Your friend is right about Childress. The details are boring, so let's keep it simple - Childress would have to go to another team.

We've heard a couple of times now that the Hawks are overvaluing Marvin. It's rather ridiculous for a team worried about the luxury tax.

Edited January 4, 2011 by mrhonline

[Vol4ever]

Thanks for the replies guys. Hmm where do I start?....ok

1st I don't believe I ever said that anyone on this board was not a "real Hawks fan" where did that come from, paranoia?? PLEASE read my comment again and point out where I said this, and if I said it, then I would gladly apologize.

2nd I will address those who addressed me specifically:

@vol4ever, I have been a fan of the Atlanta Hawks for 9 years will be 10 in March, and while I may not have been around as long as some of you, I do think that I have been around long enough to voice my opinion on this team, city and its fans. Vol4ever you are one of the veterans on this board from what I see and I respect that, but in regards to my comments/opinions on Josh Smith, can you please tell me what you THINK I don't understand? Yes Josh b@$ches and complains to the refs sometimes but the kid is a stud and is one of the most dynamic, athletic, productive,feared (in the paint), popular, players on this team, not to mention he is the home town kid, and you mean to tell me that you want to get rid of him because of his attitude?? Please explain because I would rather have Josh, than a "nice" unproductive player. And how else would you define him having a bad attitude other than his occasional pout on the court (which I havent seen this year)? He is always respectful to the fans, he is able to hold his own NOW when talking to the media, he gives back to the community, he is willing to have fun during commercials (who else on our team does commercials) Josh Smith is our true hometown star, it is beyond me why the team doesn't market him as such around the city. Getting rid of him will be the whole Dominique thing all over again.

@Wretch, dude I understand that you wanted to get some frustration out, and it was a good post to voice your opinion, but if it was directed at me then it was uncalled for. Again I didn't say or doubt how much of a fan that anyone on this site is, all I said was stop whining and pointed out the REAL excuses that are made for people not showing up to games or supporting this team the way they should. Not at you or anyone on this board specifically but the city of Atlanta as a whole. With all due respect IMO I think that you are a little jaded, but I am happy to know that you are still a Hawks fan after all the frustrations throughout the years. Hell I am frustrated too but it is more so directed to the marketing of this team and its players and the occasional lack of effort on the players part. Oh and the JJ contract uhhhh.

@frosgrim, You couldn't be more wrong my friend, I am a very well traveled man who has lived in 3 other cities prior to this one. 15 years in L.A. 4 years in New york 2 in Miami and 9 in Atlanta plus I travel every now and then. LOL whats funny is that the traveling is the reason that I feel the way that I do about this city when it comes to its fan base and the excuses that they make.

@niremetal, thanks for saving me the typing time, with your comment to frosgrim, IMO that is the truth and not another excuse.

Randy and Macdaddy your opinions make sense thanks for the post.

To everyone else on this board, I know that I am new here but please do not mistake my post number for lack of knowledge of this game, this city, or its fans, I am not saying that I know everything but i do know a few things. I am glad to be a member on this board and look forward to future post.

I understand that Josh Smith is a local home town boy. It is my opinion that Josh Smith's attitude is affecting this team. Now I am not a expert, but Josh's shot selection has taken this team out of games this season and seasons past. Josh Smith's talent is not in question, he needs to work on his low post game instead of chucking 3 pointers and long shots, we have shooters. At the end of the day, I think if you asked those in the organization, his attitude is hurting the team. Just my .02.

[Chickenstanley]

"Pay attention, did you honestly thoroughly read my comments?? Because this is twice now that you are trying use words that I did not type to prove your point. Look back at my original comment"

______________________________________________________________________________________

Welcome to Hawksquawk!

CS

[Joker]

Your friend is right about Childress. The details are boring, so let's keep it simple - Childress would have to go to another team.

We've heard a couple of times now that the Hawks are overvaluing Marvin. It's rather ridiculous for a team worried about the luxury tax.

Maybe Atlanta doesn't think Nash will sale tickets but they meet so it's serious to a degree. Idk, I hope for the best. I would buy a lot of tickets if we had Nash.

[CODHAWKSFAN]

I understand that Josh Smith is a local home town boy. It is my opinion that Josh Smith's attitude is affecting this team. Now I am not a expert, but Josh's shot selection has taken this team out of games this season and seasons past. Josh Smith's talent is not in question, he needs to work on his low post game instead of chucking 3 pointers and long shots, we have shooters. At the end of the day, I think if you asked those in the organization, his attitude is hurting the team. Just my .02.

Yes I agree that Josh should have better shot selection and needs to keep his arse in the paint, but I have to admit he has been knocking them down...I still close my eyes when he shoots. I don't know what the organization thinks or feels about his attitude but from watching the games I see a beast.

[Wretch]

@wretch,

I see what kind of poster you are and seen many like you (from this conversation anyway). You are picking little bits and pieces from what I say, flipping them then turning them into a personal attack. Answer this specifically and don't try to change the subject and come back with a rally comment like "you are not attacking me you are attacking all of us Hawks fans that have supported this team for years": Pay attention, did you honestly thoroughly read my comments?? Because this is twice now that you are trying use words that I did not type to prove your point. Look back at my original comment, I clearly said YES THIS TEAM NEEDS A TRADE, meaning that I am not happy or content with what we have either. I just simply don't think that Josh or Al should be included in those discussions unless it is for a big name or high caliber player, and a trade should be made to improve your team not just for trade. GET IT PLEASE

After you answer that please answer this. Yes you are right the Atlanta Hawks have not made it past the second round, I will give you that but, do you honestly believe that the Atlanta Hawks have no history/iconic players? Come on man you have been a Hawks fan for a long time, you know better. Lets try Lenny Wilkens, Lou Hudson, Mutombo? You don't remember the finger? How about this.... does a guy named Dominique Wilkens ring a bell or did you forget about him too? I know you mentioned him but he is not just a Hawks legend, he is a NBA LEGEND, ONE OF THE ALL TIME GREATS!

And lastly you say that I am wrong, wrong in my assumptions, wrong in my approach...I lol'ed at that one. What or how am I wrong by voicing my opinion on what I feel is an excuse? Especially when:

1.) You APPROACHED my comments and ASSUMED that I am attacking you and your loyalty to the Hawks

2.) You ASSUME that I am content with the way this team is, (even though I clearly stated that this team needs a trade).

3.) You ASSUMED that I know little about this teams history.

Now you tell me who is doing the wrong assuming and approaching?

This is why I don't do this anymore....but whatever.

1) You did - we need to stop whining, we need to support the team, etc. Those are your words, busting into this thread with an opposing view. Expect what you got. Don't back track.

2) You implied as much - attacking our views as nothing more than "trade for the sake of trading", defending Smoove saying he has put up SUPERSTAR numbers, attacking the thread which is ALL about changing the status quo.

3) Act otherwise. What is in this thread represents the 40 year history of 1st and 2nd round thrashings. You took an opposing view and by addressing the changes in Orlando, addressing the posts about trading Smith, and defending the ASG which has [put a decent product on the floor that we complain about after a comback win over the clippers] you attacked a nerve on the board - a nerve that is filled with opinions just like mine.

You say that you are for change, but all I see is a position against change. It is obvious that you don't want to move Smoove. Horford is even more untouchable, so no need to talk about that. JJ is nigh unmovable (and it's too early IMO to do that anyway). So what change is it that you actually support? Jason Collins for Jarron Collins? Moving Bibby, Marvin, or Crawford for anything else is pointless. Part of the core needs to be included if you are talking about real change.

What is your opinion on the CORE: JOSH SMITH, AL HORFORD, JOE JOHNSON. From what I read, it looks like you really fancy two of those guys. My opinion is that this core is flawed. Has been. BK built it that way and it is up to us to either A) correct his mistakes and go up or down or B) keep the status quo and continue in average to ok, NBA limbo (which you believe the city should come out and support - despite what the history of this club has shown).

My opinion is that we need to do what everyone else in the NBA does. Change something and see what happens. By the way...if you're not attacking the attitudes of us who are fed up with NBA mediocrity...then who exactly are you disagreeing with?

[CODHAWKSFAN]

Maybe Atlanta doesn't think Nash will sale tickets but they meet so it's serious to a degree. Idk, I hope for the best. I would buy a lot of tickets if we had Nash.

I hope this happens as well, but only if Nash plans on staying long than a year, I would hate to shafted with the good old, "I am ready to move on and retire, I've done all I can do in this game" move. Nash's name alone will sell tickets and lots of them. I just hope it will help us win.

[CODHAWKSFAN]

This is why I don't do this anymore....but whatever.

1) You did - we need to stop whining, we need to support the team, etc. Those are your words, busting into this thread with an opposing view. Expect what you got. Don't back track.

2) You implied as much - attacking our views as nothing more than "trade for the sake of trading", defending Smoove saying he has put up SUPERSTAR numbers, attacking the thread which is ALL about changing the status quo.

3) Act otherwise. What is in this thread represents the 40 year history of 1st and 2nd round thrashings. You took an opposing view and by addressing the changes in Orlando, addressing the posts about trading Smith, and defending the ASG which has [put a decent product on the floor that we complain about after a comback win over the clippers] you attacked a nerve on the board - a nerve that is filled with opinions just like mine.

You say that you are for change, but all I see is a position against change. It is obvious that you don't want to move Smoove. Horford is even more untouchable, so no need to talk about that. JJ is nigh unmovable (and it's too early IMO to do that anyway). So what change is it that you actually support? Jason Collins for Jarron Collins? Moving Bibby, Marvin, or Crawford for anything else is pointless. Part of the core needs to be included if you are talking about real change.

What is your opinion on the CORE: JOSH SMITH, AL HORFORD, JOE JOHNSON. From what I read, it looks like you really fancy two of those guys. My opinion is that this core is flawed. Has been. BK built it that way and it is up to us to either A) correct his mistakes and go up or down or B) keep the status quo and continue in average to ok, NBA limbo (which you believe the city should come out and support - despite what the history of this club has shown).

My opinion is that we need to do what everyone else in the NBA does. Change something and see what happens. By the way...if you're not attacking the attitudes of us who are fed up with NBA mediocrity...then who exactly are you disagreeing with?

@Wretch, LOL you still did not answer any of my questions (and came back with the rally comment) but its o.k. I will move on and answer all of yours one by one.

I am going to address this one more time then I am done because I am tired of repeating myself and this conversation isn't going anywhere, hopefully you read what I say this time.

1.) Yes I busted into the thread and said how I felt, anything wrong with that? Was I supposed to pretend to agree with what was being said? I don't regret saying anything that I said on this board, not back tracking.

2.) Wretch even though you are a labeled a veteran on this website, does not mean that you speak for everyone on this board. Maybe they don't want to say anything because they don't want to get attacked by you or others like you (maybe attacked is wrong word but you get the point). Yes I defend Josh him and Ja. Crawford are my favorite players on this team (for very different reasons) what is wrong with that? I am sorry if I messed up the "my team sucks" party.

3.) Again you don't speak for everyone on this board, I am sure that everyone on this board doesn't feel the same way you do.

Lets try this one more time, I would trade ANY of our players, but ONLY if it makes us better. Let me try to say it this way....If I collected cars I am not going to trade my new ferrari for 2 honda accords, give me a Bentley or a Lamborghini and we have a deal. Yes I think that this city should support this Hawks team, its fine if you don't.

I think that the "core" needs better motivation and more urgency, there are games when our players get selfish and are worried about getting theirs instead of sharing the ball (Joe). Josh needs to keep his arse in the paint, event though he has been hitting his shot at the three but all in all has been great. Al has been awesome but needs to stop trying to handle the ball outside of the circle, seeing him run down the court with the ball makes me nervous, he also needs to develop more post moves, I feel like I know what he is going to do by looking at his face.

Sorry but I don't believe that we should do everything that other teams do, everyone has a different situation.

I am not attacking those who view things the way that you do, I just disagree with it. I am actually just sick of hearing it. I like to hear solution ideas.

Im done!

[Diesel]

Do the true fans actually think that this team if healthy and with the understanding of the new offensive and defensive schemes are going to beat the four teams above in a 7 game series?

Can't say yeah or nay to this point right now. However, I can say this. We are beating teams that we didn't beat last year (orlando) and that's with the injuries and the new system. For anyone to answer the above question with a yeah or a nay, I say that you're speculating. In other words, your answer is meaningless. The games have to be played out.

There is a section of fans who want to do something (they don't know what) but they want to do something.

There is a section (I would say much smaller) of fans who want to wait and see.

But I say that the truth is that we don't know either way. We have our idealized vision of what this team should be and that mainly is us with Chris Paul at PG, Dwight Howard at Center, Poppovich as coach and Joe Johnson making 8 million a year. However, that's not going to happen. Moreover, we just may be a point where we cannot get into a good trade. The other thing is that we don't know what we really look like healthy. Just found out that Joe's elbow is still bothering him. I said when he came back that his shot looks off because his arm is not tucked when he shoots. Well, who knows.

This is what we do know. We have a lot of talent. We're over .600 in wins. We haven't been 100% healthy. Are we better than Chicago, Boston, Orlando, or Miami when 100% healthy with a clear understanding of offense and defense? That's hard to say but I do say that from a coaching perspective, I like what we're doing now better than what we used to do.

[Diesel]

In basketball, you have to dare period... Chicago took a chance on Dennis Rodman. Look how that panned out. LA took a chance on Artest (although I think Phil and Kobe are the only people who could have handled Ron...). Orlando is taking a chance right now. Boston took a chance by trading ALL of their young talent for aging stars. The Pistons didn't settle when they brought in Rasheed. The Jazz didn't settle when they lost Boozer. The winners in this game go out and fight hard as hell to make something happen. The losers end up with GREAT draft picks and end up with the superstars.

Teams like us...just sit around in the middle while everyone else makes the moves that count. We've just been doing that for too long. We might be complaining about it, but it's the truth and it shows at the box office, in people's opinions about the team, and even with the players themselves - who have never mentioned us as a place to play. Despite this being the PERFECT environment (sans crappy ownership).

Wretch,

I like you. You're probably my favorite poster besides myself. However, I have to look through this smoke screen. You mentioned: LA, Chicago, Orlando, Detroit and Boston. Let's be real...

None of those teams took a chance. They all traded for Complimentary players while still having a championship core.

Rodman only complimented what Jordan and Pippen where already doing. They had won 3 championships previously with Grant.

Artest was really not much different than Ariza. Artest is supposed to be "tougher" but I think the team with Ariza was just as good.

Orlando made trades but Howard is still there. Right now, Howard makes any team you put him on a championship contender. Try it. Make it a game. Replace one player on any team in the league with Dwight Howard and think about their chances. Even if you replace Love with Howard, you got to think Howard + Beasley + Ridnour could make some noise.

Detroit getting Rasheed didn't change the fact that they had Rip, Prince, Wallace and Billups there.

The only real change came with Boston. Boston is the only team you mentioned that actually took a chance. They moved their young star for aging stars and it paid off. But when you compare that Boston team with us, the difference is coaching Pierce, and Rondo? JJ > Allen. Horf >Perkins. Smoove = KG. Our Bench = Their Bench.

Sure, we have some questions to answer. Sure, we may have some moves to make. However, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves, we do have lots of talent.

[Diesel]

Seems to me that aside from money, the biggest problem is that the owners and management are afraid of making any big changes (and replacing Woody with LD was about the smalled "big change" they could make) because they are worried they will end up worse, not better. And looking at the team's history of evaluating talent (just look at the. drafting) they may have a point. Maybe they know (or at least fear) they will end up on the losing side of whatever trade they make. So maybe they figure its better to be "better than average" for a long time, instead of risking being a "lot better than average" or a "lot worse than average." Well, no matter what, most of the time the Hawks games are better than whatever else is on TV, so I'll keep watching them. And go to a game once in a while.

BTW - if they wanted to help attendance, they should get some better snacks and munchies at Phillips. The stuff they have sucks completely.

Let me chime in here. First off let me say that I wanted Avery Johnson because he had experience and was good with Guards or Doc Rivers.... Now hold that. Doc Rivers may still be a possibility in the future.

However, this is where I learned to accept this choice as "not a bad one". Woody (when you look at it) didn't do anything that guaranteed him being fired. Sure, greatest loss in playoff history and the team had quit on him. However, he won more games than he had the previous year and we looked good in winning. I think that in ASG, you saw a fear to restart. That's not completely bad. Continuity is underplayed in sports. Sure, signing LD was the cheapest move, but you can't sit here and say that he's the same as Woody. Moreover, he's over 60% thus far with an injury plagued season. Signing LD on as coach was not a fail. Sure it would have been nice to have some new blood on the sidelines, but would it have been best for the team? In my opinion, LD is getting his one shot in extreme conditions. Right now, he's not failing.

[Diesel]

We're winning against bad teams because we have guys that can hit shots - and we're moving the ball making it harder to guard us. We're losing against good teams because we need guys that can make shots when it counts - when CP3, KG, Kobe, etc. are in unstoppable mode. And that's what stars do. That's why they win. We can blame it on defensive lapses, and I will agree. You can't win without defense - and believe it or not, it's one of my keys to winning. I love players who play good D - Mookie, Grant Long, Mutombo, Josh Smith (not coincidentally my favorite Hawks). However, no matter how good your defense is...you're not going to win if you can't put the ball in the basket on the other end. If you can't stop LeBron from scoring and you can't trade baskets with him, you are going to LOSE.

We're losing against good teams because we have no inside play. You can call it what you like, but even if we had Kobe instead of Joe, we'd still lose against good teams because we don't have a consistent inside game. No goto guy in the post. We have a finesse PF and a High Post PF. Neither of those guys do well down low. We have the nerve to call one a C because he's 6'10. Offensively, we do move the ball and when our shot is on, our shot is on but in the absence of a true scoring low post player, this is what we will see. The problem is how do we go about getting a low post scorer?

Here's where your thoughts of making a big move and taking a chance comes into play. We have to be willing to be different. Being different means recognizing that we're not going to be everything that we have seen in past champions. Sometimes, you have to be willing to be the Supersonics or the showtime Lakers. What are you saying Diesel? Put offense ahead of defense. Earlier this season, it was rumored that we could get Love for Smoove. If that was available, we should have gone after it. There may have been some truth because Love doesn't get along with his coach. Still Love is a low post BEAST. The argument against getting Love.... " the defense this and the defense that.". Here's the loser welfare mentality of Hawks fans. The truth is that we might not ever have a team that can be considered defensive. But we can definitely move towards being more balanced and dangerous offensively. We have talent. Offensive talent. Do you know how much teams fear Joe and Jamal when they are healthy? Do you know how much teams would far those guys if we had Horf in the High post and a dominating force in the low post? Yeah, it would be great to get Deke. It would be great if Collins morphed into Deke and could dominate the lane and get us 5 blocks and 16 rebs ever night... that would be great. However, when I awaken from the slumber, I realize that this team has to take advantage of it's talent and at the same time not try so hard to be conventional that we lose every advantage that we do have.

[Mdizzle5]

@Wretch, LOL you still did not answer any of my questions (and came back with the rally comment) but its o.k. I will move on and answer all of yours one by one.

I am going to address this one more time then I am done because I am tired of repeating myself and this conversation isn't going anywhere, hopefully you read what I say this time.

1.) Yes I busted into the thread and said how I felt, anything wrong with that? Was I supposed to pretend to agree with what was being said? I don't regret saying anything that I said on this board, not back tracking.

2.) Wretch even though you are a labeled a veteran on this website, does not mean that you speak for everyone on this board. Maybe they don't want to say anything because they don't want to get attacked by you or others like you (maybe attacked is wrong word but you get the point). Yes I defend Josh him and Ja. Crawford are my favorite players on this team (for very different reasons) what is wrong with that? I am sorry if I messed up the "my team sucks" party.

3.) Again you don't speak for everyone on this board, I am sure that everyone on this board doesn't feel the same way you do.

Lets try this one more time, I would trade ANY of our players, but ONLY if it makes us better. Let me try to say it this way....If I collected cars I am not going to trade my new ferrari for 2 honda accords, give me a Bentley or a Lamborghini and we have a deal. Yes I think that this city should support this Hawks team, its fine if you don't.

I think that the "core" needs better motivation and more urgency, there are games when our players get selfish and are worried about getting theirs instead of sharing the ball (Joe). Josh needs to keep his arse in the paint, event though he has been hitting his shot at the three but all in all has been great. Al has been awesome but needs to stop trying to handle the ball outside of the circle, seeing him run down the court with the ball makes me nervous, he also needs to develop more post moves, I feel like I know what he is going to do by looking at his face.

Sorry but I don't believe that we should do everything that other teams do, everyone has a different situation.

I am not attacking those who view things the way that you do, I just disagree with it. I am actually just sick of hearing it. I like to hear solution ideas.

Im done!

On these two points... first of... that car metaphor doesn't work for me on a few levels... but I'll say this... I'll trade that Ferrari for a DeLorean and flux capacitor just to go back and time and not give Joe 120 whatever mill... He'll never be worth that contract and it's length. I mean The guy is good but not 120+ good. We could've used that roster for a more balanced team IMO....

Secondly, I'd personally try telling Josh to not worry so much about offense unless its easy... and throw it down any opportunity he has, I get nervous when he does layups. Put all that energy in defense. I know he's not the best man defender in the world but he's got enough length and athleticism to at least make things a lot harder for the opposing player.

Third, when Horford takes the ball down the court he pushes the tempo...practically everyone on this team (outside of Bibby, Collins, and maybe Zaza) is capable of running down the floor for easy Fastbreak points. Don't get me wrong I like when we slow it down and run the actual motion because when we really do it... "The Sh*t works!!". Also Horford is usually undersized at the center position...so he SHOULD take players off the dribble more. We need more driving in general actually. Too much jump-shooting.

Finally the point still remains... the team is flawed... nothing wrong with a fan saying that. Nothing wrong with a fan of a team saying "Let's try something new here", and because of that I still say that EVERYONE on this roster is trade-able if the opportunity comes to improve... I'd honestly prefer taking a few steps back just to be better in the long run. If you're ok with just have a Squad that just sits in the middle because they're better than 13 wins thats fine, but as we are now... sometimes we don't look much different than that 13 win team.

[Diesel]

On these two points... first of... that car metaphor doesn't work for me on a few levels... but I'll say this... I'll trade that Ferrari for a DeLorean and flux capacitor just to go back and time and not give Joe 120 whatever mill... He'll never be worth that contract and it's length. I mean The guy is good but not 120+ good. We could've used that roster for a more balanced team IMO....

How much Joe makes is not even relevant to the fans. Joe is still our best and most recognizable player. Joe making 120+ doesn't have anything to do with what happens on the court. If you had the time machine, you should go back and force ASG at Gunpoint to take CP3 over MW but that's another saga.

Secondly, I'd personally try telling Josh to not worry so much about offense unless its easy... and throw it down any opportunity he has, I get nervous when he does layups. Put all that energy in defense. I know he's not the best man defender in the world but he's got enough length and athleticism to at least make things a lot harder for the opposing player.

Maybe better is to find an offensive player who can score and defend in the lowpost and see what it would take to get him here.

Third, when Horford takes the ball down the court he pushes the tempo...practically everyone on this team (outside of Bibby, Collins, and maybe Zaza) is capable of running down the floor for easy Fastbreak points. Don't get me wrong I like when we slow it down and run the actual motion because when we really do it... "The Sh*t works!!". Also Horford is usually undersized at the center position...so he SHOULD take players off the dribble more. We need more driving in general actually. Too much jump-shooting.

Very interesting. The other day, i recognized that we are about 26th out of 30th in Pace. LD sounds just like Woody in saying that we are not ready to run. I think he has practiced them and found that TOs will increase with increasing pace. I think that speaks to BBIQ and maybe personnel. We don't have a real ball handler who can rack up high assists. If there is a deal in the works for Nash, Marvin should not stop us from doing it.

Finally the point still remains... the team is flawed... nothing wrong with a fan saying that. Nothing wrong with a fan of a team saying "Let's try something new here", and because of that I still say that EVERYONE on this roster is trade-able if the opportunity comes to improve... I'd honestly prefer taking a few steps back just to be better in the long run. If you're ok with just have a Squad that just sits in the middle because they're better than 13 wins thats fine, but as we are now... sometimes we don't look much different than that 13 win team.

Nobody wants to relive Babcock. However, Babcock never had this much talent. We have tons of talent. Babcock did always have good coaching and an itchy trade hand. If we're going to learn from the lessons of Babcock, let's read the whole record. Biggest Babcock mistake was trading a star Dominique in the midst of a winning season to avoid contract negotiations and to get a young star. That says to me that sometimes, you can move too quickly. Another Babcock mistake was trading away Smith for JR & JJ because you felt that it would revive your team. That says to me that every move has a reaction. Another Babcock mistake was trading Kukoc for Glenn Robinson and a first. It says to me that CHEMISTRY beats convention every time.

[Vol4ever]

We're losing against good teams because we have no inside play. You can call it what you like, but even if we had Kobe instead of Joe, we'd still lose against good teams because we don't have a consistent inside game. No goto guy in the post. We have a finesse PF and a High Post PF. Neither of those guys do well down low. We have the nerve to call one a C because he's 6'10. Offensively, we do move the ball and when our shot is on, our shot is on but in the absence of a true scoring low post player, this is what we will see. The problem is how do we go about getting a low post scorer?

Here's where your thoughts of making a big move and taking a chance comes into play. We have to be willing to be different. Being different means recognizing that we're not going to be everything that we have seen in past champions. Sometimes, you have to be willing to be the Supersonics or the showtime Lakers. What are you saying Diesel? Put offense ahead of defense. Earlier this season, it was rumored that we could get Love for Smoove. If that was available, we should have gone after it. There may have been some truth because Love doesn't get along with his coach. Still Love is a low post BEAST. The argument against getting Love.... " the defense this and the defense that.". Here's the loser welfare mentality of Hawks fans. The truth is that we might not ever have a team that can be considered defensive. But we can definitely move towards being more balanced and dangerous offensively. We have talent. Offensive talent. Do you know how much teams fear Joe and Jamal when they are healthy? Do you know how much teams would far those guys if we had Horf in the High post and a dominating force in the low post? Yeah, it would be great to get Deke. It would be great if Collins morphed into Deke and could dominate the lane and get us 5 blocks and 16 rebs ever night... that would be great. However, when I awaken from the slumber, I realize that this team has to take advantage of it's talent and at the same time not try so hard to be conventional that we lose every advantage that we do have.

You hit the nail on the head diesel. I've barked forever about a low post player on this team. I was ticked when Utah got Jefferson out of Minnesota this summer. Low Post scorig wins in the playoffs, everyone else is a pretender.

Lakers - Gasol

Boston - Garnett, Davis

Orlando - Howard

Spurs - Duncan

Now, if we bring in Nash and Grant Hill that will improve the team, because Nash can still break down defenses with the best of them., but it still doesnt address the low post game. Grant Hill is a smart player but is nearing retirement also. I would not give up Marvin for a one year rental and that might be a sticking point.

[Wretch]

COD. You've done a good job of telling me what kind of poster I am while dodging your own original intent. You're wrong on both accounts. I rarely take sides and when I do, it takes me a LONG time to do so. To be honest, I rarely say anything around here - as evidenced by my post count and the number of years I've been on the site. What I usually do is take an unbiased approach to most if not all of the polarized opinions on the board and post the middle ground. The exception is when someone makes a point that is simply the flat out truth - at these times I have supported the extreme/wild views of a guy like Diesel and even the completely negative views of Hotlanta. I've done this across several message boards from Real GM, to the old AJC forums, all the way to the Squawk. You coming in here telling me what kind of poster I am, that I want to berate new posters or suppress opinions, is off base and unfounded.

I don't jump on people for their opinions. When I really want to say something, I think about something long and hard, I listen to what everyone else says, and I use the simplest set of facts to present my honest opinion. When someone like you takes an opposite stand to that, I'm going to flood you with simplicity. When you start barking and attacking, I'm going to pull out a blade and put it right through the heart of what you say with no regard for your status as a newcomer, vet, moderator, or lurker.

The POINT of this thread is about people making excuses for our franchise - we are too young, we have a bad coach, we have a new coach, we have a new system, player (x) is hurt, we have new players, we need a ball handling 2 guard, LA/NY/Boston just has bigger markets, our owners are running short on funds, we can't make moves because of pending litigation, player (x) hasn't been given a chance...the list goes on and on. You come out of the shadows, essentially grandstand on a podium calling everyone's attention, and take an opposing view saying "WOW.....I am truly shocked at this post (well not really). While I agree with some of your points I am going to have to say that I disagree with your main point." Above IS the main point and I know A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE BOARD AGREE WITH IT. I can speak for myself and I can speak for them. Not once did I say EVERYBODY feels that way.

What you took exception to is the fact that I mentioned that everybody on this board is a fan of the team. Don't confuse the two points. Why was this brought up? Because your post is not only taking a loud and opposite view of the truth, that the excuses need to stop, you also take multiple shots at people wanting to trade Josh Smith, you make a sarcastic point about us getting Chris Paul, you question the support after a game won, and you top it off with a big fat cherry: "Again I don't post here much but I do read a lot. STOP WHINING SO MUCH HAWKS FANS!!!!"

^^What you are saying here is "I know I'm a new guy but I read everything you guys post and you sound like a bunch of whiny, ungrateful, non-supportive, non-fans."

You got the response you asked for and now you want to go back. I've seen posters like you too. I just don't usually waste my time on them. Nothing wrong with stating your opinion. Just stand by it when someone pulls your card.

As for trading players...duh. Nobody wants to take a step back. The more difficult question is what do you do when nobody is coming to see the product on the floor. When you may not get a "sure thing" when you deal a core talent? When your team as is has peaked? When you are looking at a team that over the course of the next 3 or 4 years appears ill equipped to deal with the big changes made around them? My opinion is that you have to get creative, you have to look at your core, and you honestly have to start looking at taking risks. You had an answer for this too:

"...this city treats the Hawks like the RED HEADED STEP CHILD. When they do bad its OH THIS TEAM AND OWNERSHIP GROUPS SUCKS!! And when they win its MEH....they will lose the next one. WHERE IS THE SUPPORT???? Last year the Falcons sold out a 60,000 seat dome because they had a "winning record"? Come on Atlanta, I know its "football" but give me a break." This isn't selective responses or "snippets" from your point of view. You think the city should support a team that is just good enough. This is the core of your entire argument. Own it.

[Wretch]

Wretch,

I like you. You're probably my favorite poster besides myself. However, I have to look through this smoke screen. You mentioned: LA, Chicago, Orlando, Detroit and Boston. Let's be real...

None of those teams took a chance. They all traded for Complimentary players while still having a championship core.

Rodman only complimented what Jordan and Pippen where already doing. They had won 3 championships previously with Grant.

Artest was really not much different than Ariza. Artest is supposed to be "tougher" but I think the team with Ariza was just as good.

Orlando made trades but Howard is still there. Right now, Howard makes any team you put him on a championship contender. Try it. Make it a game. Replace one player on any team in the league with Dwight Howard and think about their chances. Even if you replace Love with Howard, you got to think Howard + Beasley + Ridnour could make some noise.

Detroit getting Rasheed didn't change the fact that they had Rip, Prince, Wallace and Billups there.

The only real change came with Boston. Boston is the only team you mentioned that actually took a chance. They moved their young star for aging stars and it paid off. But when you compare that Boston team with us, the difference is coaching Pierce, and Rondo? JJ > Allen. Horf >Perkins. Smoove = KG. Our Bench = Their Bench.

Sure, we have some questions to answer. Sure, we may have some moves to make. However, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves, we do have lots of talent.

Boston did nothing but take a risk. What they did was the equivalent of us trading Al, Smoove, and Marvin for aging veteran All-Stars. They mortgaged their future. They made the ULTIMATE change, something I'm not even thinking about. I'm talking about one core guy + Marvin. They dumped the whole thing - and it paid off. BTW...that is a HUGE difference you're talking about there. Smoove isn't KG. Garnett is a reliable post and midrange shooter. You also have to look at what he brings outside the box score - he is the heart of that team. C's bench? They're not much better, but I like Nate, Shaq, and Big Baby. I guess you have to equal it out when Crawford is coming off ours giving us 15-20+ on any given night.

LA took a chance on Artest. If it were about similar play and numbers, then WE would have made a run at him. But there were many on this board, myself included, that wanted nothing to do with him. No...this isn't about numbers. This was about risk. At the time, I felt (and still do feel) that the only place that would be a good fit for him would be LA - where a guy like Phil Jackson has experience with a knucklehead. We're talking about the guy that assaulted the Pacers fans. The guy that wanted to leave in the middle of the season to record an album. A knucklehead that was a potential chemistry breaker...they brought him into a championship core. That's a risk.

Same thing with Rodman - but he wasn't cross dressing when they brought him in and hadn't Goldberg'd anybody in the stands. He was a risk:

San Antonio Spurs

In the 1993–94 NBA season, Rodman joined a Spurs team which was built around perennial All-Star center David Robinson, with a supporting cast of forwards Dale Ellis, Willie Anderson and guard Vinnie Del Negro. On the hardwood, Rodman now was played as a power forward and won his third straight rebounding title, averaging 17.3 boards per game along with a career-low 4.7 points, but yet another All-Defensive Team call-up. Living up to his promise of killing the "shy imposter" and "being himself" instead, Rodman began to show first signs of bizarre behaviour: before the first game, he shaved his hair and dyed it blonde, which was followed up stints with red, purple, blue hair and a look inspired from the film Demolition Man. During the season, he headbutted Stacey King and John Stockton, refused to leave the hardwood once after being ejected, and had a highly-publicized two month affair with Madonna. The only player to whom Rodman related was reserve center Jack Haley, who won his trust by not being shocked after a visit to a gay bar. However, despite a 55-win season, Rodman and the Spurs did not survive the First Round of the 1994 NBA Playoffs and bowed out against the Utah Jazz in four games.

In the following 1994–95 NBA season, Rodman clashed with the Spurs front office. He was suspended for the first three games, took a leave of absence on November 11, and was suspended again on December 7. He finally returned on December 10 after missing 19 games. After joining the team, he suffered a shoulder separation in a motorcycle accident, limiting his season to 49 games. Normally, he would not have qualified for any season records for missing so many games, but by grabbing 823 rebounds, he just surpassed the 800-rebound limit for listing players and won his fourth straight rebounding title by averaging 16.8 boards per game and made the All-NBA Team.In the 1995 NBA Playoffs, the 62-win Spurs with reigning NBA Most Valuable Player Award winner Robinson entered the Western Conference Finals and were considered favorites against the reigning champions Houston Rockets who had only won 47 games. It was thought that Rockets center Hakeem Olajuwon would have a hard time asserting himself versus Robinson and Rodman, who had both been voted into the NBA All-Defensive Teams. However, neither Robinson nor Rodman, who had disrupted a playoff game against the Lakers by sitting down on the court, could stop Olajuwon, who averaged 35.3 points against the elite defensive Spurs frontcourt, and helped eliminate the Spurs in six games.

I promise you this team wouldn't have signed him or anyone like him (Artest) today. As much as everyone wants to give him his historic dues for helping Chicago get over the top, none of us would have wanted to take a chance on him. Hell, people are bitching in here about Gilbert Arenas goofing off with a gun. In any case, Chicago took the risk and it paid off. Might be a little contradictory to my point (given that I wouldn't have signed Rodman or Artest) but proves the point that risks need to be taken to get ahead.

Orlando took a risk. Yes they traded complimentary players, but sh!t man...they traded basically the whole starting unit, in the middle of the season, and gave up a lot of size/athleticism in the process. I believe you were one of the main posters saying that this would work to our advantage. Sounds like they took a risk to me.

I didn't say Detroit took a risk. I said they didn't SETTLE. They were a good enough team without Rasheed (just as we are good enough right now). They didn't settle.

So while I mentioned these teams, I didn't mention them in the exact same context.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Wretch

[Chickenstanley]

When I look back over the last 30 years or so, I find that defense, more so than strong low-post scoring jumps out as the most common element of championship teams. But then again, the rear-view mirror is not always the best place to discover what is about to appear in your windshield.

The '80's Lakers ---- Strong inside scoring (Kareem) + Trancendant talent at point guard. Both were the best to ever play at those two positions. Not likely duplicable ever.

The 80's Celtics. ---- Strong inside scoring + tremendous rebounding + great defensively

Bad Boy Pistons -- Weak inside scoring (Laimbeer was a high post jump-shooting center) Tremendous defense. Not likey duplicable because of rule changes.

Jordan Bulls ---- No low post scoring. Best player to ever play. Possibly most versatile combo forward to ever play. Tremendous defense.

Shaq/Kobe Lakers -- Strong inside scoring + Kobe

Spurs --- Strong inside scoring + tremendous defense.

Larry Brown Pistons --- Weak low post scoring . Tremendous defensively.

2008/current Celtics -- No real low-post scoring threat. Tremendous defensively.

CS