Tired of Excuses for This Team

[phoostal]

I'm irritated that excuses continue to be made for this team. Examples - we aren't healthy enough, we have a new coach with a new system, unsettled ownership, no fan support, etc...

My question is when is it going to be okay to not make excuses for this team? After the season? That seems ridiculous, considering this team has been together for over five years.

You know Miami, Boston, Orlando, Chicago have injury problems, new players, new systems to learn, yet they don't seem to have a problem adjusting.

So why is it we keep giving this team an out?

I think in another post Wretch said we should have a poll to see if we should make a trade for the sake of making a trade. I think that is an interesting poll. At this point we need to shake the cart.

Do the true fans actually think that this team if healthy and with the understanding of the new offensive and defensive schemes are going to beat the four teams above in a 7 game series?

If you say "yes" I think you are believing in fools gold.

What has this team shown you this year or last for that matter. The only player that continues to grow is Horford. Smith has improved, however he continues to make the same mistakes he has made his entire career (basically the same turnovers and shot selection). Johnson, Williams, Bibby, Crawford etc. are all giving us for the most the same production. Johnson is down than usual right now, but he isn't killing the team. Just his contract.

Drew is continuing the Woodson philosophy of not playing young guys Teague and JC2. I think it is silly we need to know what these guys can do right now. Come playoff time they may actually help. I'm not saying that these guys are going to be great or even good players, but we need to find out if they can play at this level. When Drew keeps playing guys like Mo Evans then you have to question why he doesn't put in Teague or JC2 more. Or when Bibby is getting killed by dribble penetration he needs to run Teague more. It's not like these guys are going to be worse.

Sometimes I wonder what do the owners and Sund see that us fans don't. Which leads me to believe that they are geniuses or completely don't care one way or another.

How come basketball columnists, people on this site (and other sites), and tv commentators know that this team has gone as far as it can go? What's dangerous about this team is that it's not bad and it's not great. Meaning it can fly under the radar without having any demands put on it.

I just don't know why ownership and Sund can't see this. Leading me to think they just don't want to lose any more money or lose what revenue they do have coming in. Basically they don't care about the product as long as it is not putrid.

While we are not even close to being like the Clippers, where their owner is only concerned about the bottom line (making a dollar - they are one of the few teams that makes money each year due to the fact Sterling runs his team like a corporation) I'm beginning to think we are being run in a similar fashion. Meaning as long as we are not a laughing stock and we are holding our own fiscally that the ownership group will be content to keep the team as is.

As fans this is unacceptable. Unfortunately we don't have a say. We just have to hope that they change their course or sell the team.

I will bring this full circle now, the reason I started this post is that I think all of us want this team to win an NBA championship and be successful. We try to find excuses on why this happening, which is natural for us fans. Excuses only go so far, as well as explanations. We all know deep down inside that changes need to be made for this team to take the next step.

The real culprit is ownership and Sund. Until they change their philosophies or are no longer associated with this team. Nothing is going to change.

You can make all the excuses you want why this team can't be part of the elite as mentioned above, however we all know that isn't really the problem - I give you the Atlanta Spirit Group and Rick Sund.

As usual thank you for letting me vent. I always appreciate the site and I'm glad we got a place to go to talk about our beloved Hawks.

P

[Seano]

Good post. I think it's clear that we are a greatly flawed team, and the big fear is that this team has already maxed-out and that this is as good as this bunch is going to get, that dreaded NBA limbo where you're not good enough to actually contend for big things in the postseason and not bad enough to where you can land a high enough pick to get a player good enough to actually lift you out of that limbo status......and it certainly doesn't help matters that we've got two powerhouses in our own division like Orlando and Miami. It gets very discouraging sometimes and seems like we're just spinning our wheels while going absolutely nowhere.

[TheTruth]

You know, it is hard to disagree with any of this right now. Some of us may not want to readily admit it, but it seems as though this team, right now, is nothing more than a team that can beat up most bad teams but fold against the good ones. And you know what that equates to? An average team that may win around 45 games but get destroyed in the playoffs...Again.

You look at last year and our record, but we were extremely healthy all year. That hardly ever happens. We are hamstrung by JJ's contract (although I have no ill will toward JJ himself), terrible ownership, a babysitter for a GM, unproven coaching, young talent that either doesn't play much or hasn't developed enough, little financial flexibility, no superstar, a "core" that has been stuck with too long, no bench outside of Jamal Crawford, and a highly flawed roster.

The Hawks may finish around the 5th seed or so and still make the playoffs. That's nice. However, unlike the past couple years or so, the teams above us are easily much, much better than we are. I'm no doom and gloomer, and there have been some good things with the Hawks this year (namely Al Horford), but we likely aren't going anywhere this year. That's just reality. And unless Sund gets off his hands and becomes willing to break up this flawed core, get some owners who are finally willing to pay luxury tax, and somehow acquire quality bench players whether Jamal Crawford is here or not, our future doesn't look so hot as well.

[Vol4ever]

To put this in the simpliest of terms "This team is done." The Hawks will make the playoffs and that is what the ownership seems to have as a goal. This is a live and die by the jumpshot team. You cannot win the playoffs by being a jumpshooting team, thus the results in Orlando of last year. IMO there is no chemistry on this team, there is no real PG on the roster that is a floor general.

I dont know what the answer is exactly to move this team to the next level, but the ownership team is a complete joke. Josh Smith will NEVER be a consistent player at a high level in this league because he listens to no one and he would be the first to go if I were calling the shots. The ownership let the coach go and hired his assistant which was a money move, again this lies on the ownership group of this team.

I have been a fan of this team since 1978 and I can honestly say I'm as frustrated as I have ever been and all of my frustration is directed towards the ownership of this team.

I now believe the team should have been given to David McDavid. The spirit group is nothing more than a bunch of clowns.

[Wretch]

Great damn post.

We have been making excuses for this team for far too long. I'm really not a guy that likes a lot of attention (despite what my fingers do on this keyboard). But I do have to grandstand sometimes to get a point across. Like right now...

Back when we were sucking, and I'm talking about the tail end of that Kruger/Stotts era...circa 2004... I stood up and said, "Hey...we need to lose these games! We need to get as high a pick as possible." The arguments were that the lottery isn't a sure thing. It's bad to root for your team to lose. It's not guaranteed that the #1 pick is any better than the #5. BUT it was like people failed to see the bigger picture - WE WEREN'T GOING ANYWHERE NEAR THE PLAYOFFS. Why win these meaningless games with players that we will never see again (Sura, Jack, etc.)? The result of their heroic campaign was around 3-7 games won that would have kept us out of the coin flip with the Clippers and given us a much better shot at #2 or #1. I wanted to tank (I also wanted Luol Deng and was just confused as to why Phoenix just gave up the #7...and why we couldn't have gotten it...but w/e).

I was trying to say...that THIS was our moment to build. Where did Iverson, Garnett, Jordan, Magic, Zeke, Shaq, Drexler, Hakeem, Barkley...the players that people come out in droves to see in Atlanta...WHERE did they come from? Did TMac just sprout up out of the ground in Toronto? Did Shaq just fall out of the sky into Orlando? Did Magic Johnson appear out of thin air to be an NBA icon synonymous with the Lakers franchise? NO. They were drafted...and they were drafted HIGH. It was our future and because we were never allowed to build through the draft, many people (Billy Knight included) didn't quite understand how important it was. I did...because for some reason...I was just always fascinated with the NBA draft and I saw the direct connection.

It was the same way when we finally drafted these guys and people couldn't understand why I didn't want Al Harrington and Walker taking all their shots. The arguments were mainly that they were rookies and that they needed to learn from the vets. That the best teams kept guys like Kobe Bryant and Cliff Robinson on the bench. They weren't ready. What people didn't understand was that we were in rebuild mode. These rookies were our FUTURE. We needed Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Josh Childress ON THE DAMN COURT. Not only that, we needed to give them the ball to SEE if they could put this team on their back...to learn, make mistakes, find themselves. A winning team had the luxury of benching young guys and bringing them along slowly. When you're winning 13-20 games a year...and you draft a guy to put asses in seats and carry the franchise, you don't bury him behind some journeyman. You turn him lose.

But we had never drafted like that before, so people didn't understand. For the most part, guys played a decent role and Woody was halfway decent at teaching the game overall. But he didn't teach these guys about the most important part of the game - OFFENSE. You can't win if you can't score and year after year, someone else was given the ball until we found ourselves completely dependent upon isolating Joe Johnson. The remedy was always to move the ball around and let these guys find their shot - like Smoove who has proven that he can hit from outside. Like Marvin who, believe it or not, should be the 2nd or 1st scoring option...but who has been allowed to be a virtual nobody on the court. (...and let me not make excuses for him. Marvin's problem is MARVIN. Not the system. Not the coach. Not Chris Paul or Deron Williams...but Marvin.)

Now here we are again. Halfway decent squad that we haven't had since the mid 90's. This is just like when Pete Babcock wouldn't let us lose to get better. We stayed just good enough to make the playoffs and get a draft pick in the high teens but not bad enough to draft the franchise players. Today, we will not get a shot at the Derrick Roses, John Walls, Russel Westbrooks, and Blake Griffins that will become the Iversons, Garnetts, Kobe Bryants, and Chris Webbers that we needed in the 90's. But that's a lot of good teams right now...teams like NY, Chicago, Miami, Dallas, Utah, Orlando. The difference though? They made moves. LOOK at Utah...they lose a cog like Boozer and pull Al Jefferson out of their *ss...

Meanwhile, by comparison? What have we done? Hell, our starting lineup hasn't changed in like...what nearly 3 years? We have been downright PLAGUED by ill advised management for the last 25 years. We have been afraid of change. We have been afraid to take risks. We have treated the draft like a joke. We have held our draft picks down. Now? We're just sitting here wondering what to do next. But the answer is just as obvious as TANKING when you can't make the playoffs. It's as obvious as HANDING THE KEYS OVER to your drafted talent when you cannot win games.

The answer to our frustration is simple right now too. Look around the league at what other teams are doing. They make moves.

We have two 2nd round sweeps, one of which was the worst in the history of the NBA - people...the WORST sweep in the history of the NBA. Wait...I'm sorry. Does NOBODY hear me?

YOUR Atlanta Hawks endured the WORST 7 GAME SWEEP IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA.

THIS TEAM. YOUR team. You were alive to see it. You were there - THIS TEAM did that. Last season (not 10 years ago). Don't forget it.

That by itself should tell you something.

The Lakers won a championship and brought in a 3rd player and benched a starter.

The Magic got to the finals and ECFs and they have wiped that team twice.

The Hawks endured the most lopsided sweep in the history of the game...and we promote the assistant coach.

People..................................................................

[Sothron]

I agree that this team is fundamentally flawed and the playoffs will once again expose those flaws. No one disagrees with that. The problem I have with some of the posters here is that you seem to think that Sund can wave a magic wand and make it all better.

Here's the truth: the ASG were so desperate for a winning product that they (foolishly) pushed all in with this core. THIS CORE. Not something we can do in trade scenarios or NBA 2k11. THIS TEAM.

Josh is here to stay.

Joe is here to stay.

Al is here to stay.

Marvin is here to stay.

Bibby is here to stay until at least next season.

IMO Jamaal is here to stay and will get a contract extension to stay here.

Where does that leave us? Oh right...right up against the luxury tax which the ASG will NOT PAY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. We aren't getting Melo. We aren't getting Nash or some other PG. This team is stuck like it is for the next four to five years.

We aren't winning any rings with this team but the ASG can run around Atlanta talking about why we have a 50 win team and complain about no one seeing it. News flash ASG: the Atlanta sports fan knows this team is second round FODDER for the big three in the East.

And guess what else ASG? That next bracket of Eastern teams is now either as good as we are or very close to it. I'd take the Bulls future with what they have hands down over this team and the Knicks, laugh if you want, are playing with house money and will stock up on players to supplement an already good team.

This team is going nowhere for the next several seasons unless we somehow draft a superstar very late in the draft or we get new ownership. We can b*tch about it as fans as much as we want, and we should because ultimately we are the ones getting the shaft, but it is what it is.

[Wretch]

Y'know, it doesn't have to be Carmelo or Chris Paul and I don't think the most rational posters think that we could pull it off. My main point is that SOMETHING needs to be done. Arenas is no CP3 and JRich is no Carmelo. But Orlando just made some moves and one thing is for certain, they're not stuck where they are. How did LA get Gasol and Artest? How did the Celtics get Nate (who is a very good pick up for them)? How did the Jazz pull basically Al Horford (Jefferson, just using Horf as a comparison) out of thin air to replace Boozer.

The point is not that we need to trade for a miraculous superstar player...but that we need to make a move period. Even if we don't get Carmelo, maybe this move makes us REALLY good - good enough to attract attention. Maybe a superstar sees that and we make a sign and trade? Maybe we find a way to deal with JJ's behemoth contract? Maybe he stays and starts putting up 20+ at a 45% FGs and 40% on 3's. Who knows?

I wouldn't say any of these guys are here to stay either. The only guy that would be tough to move right now is JJ and I don't know that is so much of an answer. Smoove has tremendous value and probably has enough to tack Marvin onto him who still has a sliver of "potential" hanging on him. You never know what a team is willing to do.

But one thing is for sure in my mind - change is in order.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Wretch

[phoostal]

I here what you are saying Sothron about the money invested in the core. However, this is what is the difference between good organizations and bad ones.

ASG took a chance on re-upping this core. Now they have to realize this isn't going to take them to the next level.

We all have our opinions, and I have to disagree with yours that we are stuck with this core. We have tradable assets in Smith and Crawford. If we should trade Smith and Crawford we probably could pawn off dead weight like Marvin, Zaza, or Bibby as well.

This would allow us to get a good player in return as well as get some possible cap space for future moves and some playing time for Teague and JC2 to see if they are going to give us anything at this level or if we should trade them or let them go when their contracts are up.

Instead we choose to sit and watch mediocrity. This is what our ownership group is giving us. Sometimes you have to dare to fail to be great. You have to not settle for average.

As Wretch mentioned the ASG is content to ride this out as long as possible and if we make the playoffs the next three years they will be happy. This is all they care about.

I think we all realize this, I just wish ownership did care because if they do we will some moves before the deadline to make this team better. We do have assets that make this possible it's up to ASG and Sund.

P

[Wretch]

I here what you are saying Sothron about the money invested in the core. However, this is what is the difference between good organizations and bad ones.

ASG took a chance on re-upping this core. Now they have to realize this isn't going to take them to the next level.

We all have our opinions, and I have to disagree with yours that we are stuck with this core. We have tradable assets in Smith and Crawford. If we should trade Smith and Crawford we probably could pawn off dead weight like Marvin, Zaza, or Bibby as well.

This would allow us to get a good player in return as well as get some possible cap space for future moves and some playing time for Teague and JC2 to see if they are going to give us anything at this level or if we should trade them or let them go when their contracts are up.

Instead we choose to sit and watch mediocrity. This is what our ownership group is giving us. Sometimes you have to dare to fail to be great. You have to not settle for average.

As Wretch mentioned the ASG is content to ride this out as long as possible and if we make the playoffs the next three years they will be happy. This is all they care about.

I think we all realize this, I just wish ownership did care because if they do we will some moves before the deadline to make this team better. We do have assets that make this possible it's up to ASG and Sund.

P

In basketball, you have to dare period... Chicago took a chance on Dennis Rodman. Look how that panned out. LA took a chance on Artest (although I think Phil and Kobe are the only people who could have handled Ron...). Orlando is taking a chance right now. Boston took a chance by trading ALL of their young talent for aging stars. The Pistons didn't settle when they brought in Rasheed. The Jazz didn't settle when they lost Boozer. The winners in this game go out and fight hard as hell to make something happen. The losers end up with GREAT draft picks and end up with the superstars.

Teams like us...just sit around in the middle while everyone else makes the moves that count. We've just been doing that for too long. We might be complaining about it, but it's the truth and it shows at the box office, in people's opinions about the team, and even with the players themselves - who have never mentioned us as a place to play. Despite this being the PERFECT environment (sans crappy ownership).

[phoostal]

Thus that is why it is frustrating to be Hawks fan. Why should we care if ownership doesn't?

Oh well I still love them. But they will drive you crazy and break your heart.

Its just my opinion that we need to stop making excuses for this bunch when we all know the real problem is ownership. The team is broke and needs to be fixed and staying status quo isn't the going to fix it.

Good luck to this years team I will always be pulling for you guys, but I'm not expecting much. I've been let down time and again.

P

[CODHAWKSFAN]

WOW.....I am truly shocked at this post (well not really). While I agree with some of your points I am going to have to say that I disagree with your main point. Since when has this city made excuses for the Atlanta Hawks???? If anything Atlanta makes more excuses on why they should NOT support the Hawks. Last season was a perfect example, can you please tell me which team in the NBA (or any sport for that matter) does not come out to support a team that is number 3 amongst its peers? Even though we beat almost every team in the nba at least once or multiple times, swept Boston, and had some of the most exciting games this city has had in a long time?

Atlanta Excuses:

1.) Traffic: People complain about traffic but 80,000 plus atliens figure out a way to get downtown to see a Monday night Falcons game.

2.) Downtown is to dangerous: Downtown Atlanta is surrounded by office buildings, shops, and a park, Turner field is smack damn in the middle of the ghetto. Also see point number one

3.) Cant make weekday games: I went to a Braves game on a Thursday at NOON last year and there were at least 16,000 in the building.

4.) The Hawks suck: Hawks had one of the best records in the east.

The ownerships Job is to put a good product on the court and the have done decent at that, but I do not think that the fans of this city have done their part when it comes to the Atlanta Hawks, this city treats the Hawks like the RED HEADED STEP CHILD. When they do bad its OH THIS TEAM AND OWNERSHIP GROUPS SUCKS!! And when they win its MEH....they will lose the next one. WHERE IS THE SUPPORT???? Last year the Falcons sold out a 60,000 seat dome because they had a "winning record"? Come on Atlanta, I know its "football" but give me a break.

Don't get me wrong though, this organization has made some f#$%ed up decisions over the years (imo jj's contract being one of them) but it happens, and in spite of that, the Hawks are a pretty decent team who I believe can beat anybody. This was proven last year with the exception of Orlando. I don't post here much but why is everyone on these Atlanta Hawks boards so infatuated with trading Josh Smith?? Who can we get for him that is better?......Don't worry I'll wait...................................................................................................................................................................................................................at the moment no one, and I would only trade Josh for a superstar, because like it or not Josh puts up superstar numbers. Josh, and Al are our 2 best players. I believe this team probably needs a trade but NOT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF TRADING. You make trades to improve your team or improve at the position, not just because Orlando made a "blockbuster" trade, what sense does that make, especially when the city already doesnt support you, it would just make things worse.

No this NBA team does not have all of the pieces it needs to win a championship but, there are also about 25 other NBA teams in the same situation. Its not very simple to just get those pieces. Like I said, trades are made to better a position not just for the sake of trade.

Back to the support thing, this post is another example of what I am talking about. The Hawks just won a game on the road, in a come back situation (yes I know it was the clippers) with three of our best players scoring above 20, and instead of being proud of our guys for hanging in there and rising to the occasion, they get bashed with post like this. What player would what to play for a whole city like that? I know I wouldn't. So what if we had Chris Paul, with the same record that we have now (or worse) would that make you all happy? Would you support the team then? What if we traded Josh for a player who did B$tch and complain to the refs so much, do you think that will help the team when it comes to actual basketball? The grass isn't always greener on the other side folks and a lot of teams walk a fine line between being holding a ring and holding there faces in the NBA. Again I don't post here much but I do read a lot. STOP WHINING SO MUCH HAWKS FANS!!!!

[CWebb]

No this NBA team does not have all of the pieces it needs to win a championship but, there are also about 25 other NBA teams in the same situation. Its not very simple to just get those pieces. Like I said, trades are made to better a position not just for the sake of trade.

Back to the support thing, this post is another example of what I am talking about. The Hawks just won a game on the road, in a come back situation (yes I know it was the clippers) with three of our best players scoring above 20, and instead of being proud of our guys for hanging in there and rising to the occasion, they get bashed with post like this. What player would what to play for a whole city like that? I know I wouldn't. So what if we had Chris Paul, with the same record that we have now (or worse) would that make you all happy? Would you support the team then? What if we traded Josh for a player who did B$tch and complain to the refs so much, do you think that will help the team when it comes to actual basketball? The grass isn't always greener on the other side folks and a lot of teams walk a fine line between being holding a ring and holding there faces in the NBA. Again I don't post here much but I do read a lot. STOP WHINING SO MUCH HAWKS FANS!!!!

Agree...

It's frustrating to see so little support.

[Randy]

Seems to me that aside from money, the biggest problem is that the owners and management are afraid of making any big changes (and replacing Woody with LD was about the smalled "big change" they could make) because they are worried they will end up worse, not better. And looking at the team's history of evaluating talent (just look at the. drafting) they may have a point. Maybe they know (or at least fear) they will end up on the losing side of whatever trade they make. So maybe they figure its better to be "better than average" for a long time, instead of risking being a "lot better than average" or a "lot worse than average." Well, no matter what, most of the time the Hawks games are better than whatever else is on TV, so I'll keep watching them. And go to a game once in a while.

BTW - if they wanted to help attendance, they should get some better snacks and munchies at Phillips. The stuff they have sucks completely.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Randy

[frosgrim]

This is a good discussion, but unfortuantely it is the same one we've had since the ASG purchased the franchise. I don't have too much to add to what is being said, other than my take on why LD doesn't take a chance by playing Teague and JC2.

Teague: First, he shows very little confidence on the court. The guy just isn't developing as a pg. Why play him?

JC2: None of us see what the guy does in practice. LD and crew may not be seeing enough there to give the kid PT. I would like to see him instead of Evans, but this team is in desperate need of depth at SF, not G.

Why LD doesn't play the guys:

Ignoring demonstrated talent levels, let's say for argument that Teague could develop in a true starting PG, the problem is that he won't be given that chance with LD. Why? Because LD suffers from the same problem Woodson suffered: he has a very firable contract. The ASG can pull the plug on the LD experiment and still not owe much on that contract. LD, like Woodson, has to win NOW. Both coaches feel/felt they have to win every game because their jobs are always on the line. An established coach, with even an average contract, would be more inclined to spend the early part of the reagular season building his bench. This is what Popovich does every year. Sloan in Utah made Deron what he is today by pushing the guy, but during that developmental period he sacrificed wins. What these coaches do is give up regular season games, and possible playoff seeding, to make sure they have the tools to win playoff series. They get that the true NBA season only starts after the first 82. Like Woodson, LD doesn't have the security to play the regular season as it should be played. Instead, LD has to play each game as if it is the most important game of his career, because in some ways, it is.

It all simply boils down to an infectual and resource poor ownership group. Until that is changed, or the NBA changes the playing field, we are stuck with what we have- and that ain't enough to be a real contender. We are just the best of the pretenders.

[Dejay]

Wow. I really thought that I was one of the few to truly see this organization as it really is, to see it's true colors but now I see that there have been some converts that's come down the aisle since the old AJC forum days. I've been a fan of this team for well over 30 years and the more I watch how they conduct their business on and off the court, the more I feel like it's Groundhog's Day. They're using the same tired formula now as they did in Nique's heyday 20+ years ago; hodgepodge their way to the playoffs, pray for a miracle once they're there because everyone knows they're outgunned going in, then keep the status quo during the offseason because, after all, they did make the playoffs, right?

There is no philosophy, no process, no rhyme or reason to anything they do; as long as they get to the postseason, it's counted as a rounding success, especially now since there's a best-of-seven deal in the first round, which guarantees at least two additional home games (i.e. more $$$ to the coffers). Even when they rebuilt the thing with BK a few years ago, did you really see much of a process to what he was doing that made any sense whatsoever? And why else would Rick Sund call them an 'elite' team after that debacle in May? Where else would a GM get away with such an asinine comment?

While Donald Sterling is roundly criticized for running his team like a corporation, what the Notorious A.S.G. is doing is just as bad because there's no sense of urgency to win big. Gearon and the gang can crow all they want to about empty seats and no support but until they get out of the kiddy pool and play with the big boys, no one will believe that this team is for real. As I've stated a million times on this board, Atlanta is the last place where you to talk tough about winning a title only to stay the course when it doesn't happen; just ask Chipper Jones how a half-empty Turner Field looked like in October when they were found to be playoff phonies years ago.

My friends, that is why sooooooo many folks have tuned this team out. The only folks in this town talking about comeback road wins against the Clips, 50-win seasons, or a 3rd seed in the playoffs are us. What have this franchise done with those 50-win seasons and homecourt advantage? I know; empty their lockers and watch the rest of the playoffs with you and me after Round 2. Scared $$$ never makes any; unfortunately, we all know what side of the ledger our favorite NBA team is on.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Dejay

[macdaddy]

The reason we haven't made a change is that basketball people know that we have the talent to compete. We aren't very deep but that isn't a huge concern if you get into the playoffs healthy. I think the belief is that we can handle anyone in the east in the playoffs if we don't choke. I'm not saying I subscribe to this belief but I think that's what the owners are thinking.

But the bottom line is we need more talent to go to the elite level and that's not happening without spending more money. So that's not happening. I expect Jamal to be traded. Even though I didn't want Shaq it would have been a good marketing move. I think if they can bring in Nash they should because that will get people interested.

[Vol4ever]

WOW.....I am truly shocked at this post (well not really). While I agree with some of your points I am going to have to say that I disagree with your main point. Since when has this city made excuses for the Atlanta Hawks???? If anything Atlanta makes more excuses on why they should NOT support the Hawks. Last season was a perfect example, can you please tell me which team in the NBA (or any sport for that matter) does not come out to support a team that is number 3 amongst its peers? Even though we beat almost every team in the nba at least once or multiple times, swept Boston, and had some of the most exciting games this city has had in a long time?

Atlanta Excuses:

1.) Traffic: People complain about traffic but 80,000 plus atliens figure out a way to get downtown to see a Monday night Falcons game.

2.) Downtown is to dangerous: Downtown Atlanta is surrounded by office buildings, shops, and a park, Turner field is smack damn in the middle of the ghetto. Also see point number one

3.) Cant make weekday games: I went to a Braves game on a Thursday at NOON last year and there were at least 16,000 in the building.

4.) The Hawks suck: Hawks had one of the best records in the east.

The ownerships Job is to put a good product on the court and the have done decent at that, but I do not think that the fans of this city have done their part when it comes to the Atlanta Hawks, this city treats the Hawks like the RED HEADED STEP CHILD. When they do bad its OH THIS TEAM AND OWNERSHIP GROUPS SUCKS!! And when they win its MEH....they will lose the next one. WHERE IS THE SUPPORT???? Last year the Falcons sold out a 60,000 seat dome because they had a "winning record"? Come on Atlanta, I know its "football" but give me a break.

Don't get me wrong though, this organization has made some f#$%ed up decisions over the years (imo jj's contract being one of them) but it happens, and in spite of that, the Hawks are a pretty decent team who I believe can beat anybody. This was proven last year with the exception of Orlando. I don't post here much but why is everyone on these Atlanta Hawks boards so infatuated with trading Josh Smith?? Who can we get for him that is better?......Don't worry I'll wait...................................................................................................................................................................................................................at the moment no one, and I would only trade Josh for a superstar, because like it or not Josh puts up superstar numbers. Josh, and Al are our 2 best players. I believe this team probably needs a trade but NOT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF TRADING. You make trades to improve your team or improve at the position, not just because Orlando made a "blockbuster" trade, what sense does that make, especially when the city already doesnt support you, it would just make things worse.

No this NBA team does not have all of the pieces it needs to win a championship but, there are also about 25 other NBA teams in the same situation. Its not very simple to just get those pieces. Like I said, trades are made to better a position not just for the sake of trade.

Back to the support thing, this post is another example of what I am talking about. The Hawks just won a game on the road, in a come back situation (yes I know it was the clippers) with three of our best players scoring above 20, and instead of being proud of our guys for hanging in there and rising to the occasion, they get bashed with post like this. What player would what to play for a whole city like that? I know I wouldn't. So what if we had Chris Paul, with the same record that we have now (or worse) would that make you all happy? Would you support the team then? What if we traded Josh for a player who did B$tch and complain to the refs so much, do you think that will help the team when it comes to actual basketball? The grass isn't always greener on the other side folks and a lot of teams walk a fine line between being holding a ring and holding there faces in the NBA. Again I don't post here much but I do read a lot. STOP WHINING SO MUCH HAWKS FANS!!!!

Dont know how long youve been a Hawk fan..................but some of us posters have been through thick and thin with this team and we understand this team cannot and will not be a contender...........unless you are talking about a divisional title.

Your comment concerning Josh Smooth in my opinion shows you do not understand. While he has the talent to become a superstar there is this little problem of attitude and every organization in the league knows this..............so no you would not receive a superstar in return for Josh Smith.

I see your comment about the grass is not greener.........we understand that....................but this core has been together how many years?....................

[Wretch]

WOW.....I am truly shocked at this post (well not really). While I agree with some of your points I am going to have to say that I disagree with your main point. Since when has this city made excuses for the Atlanta Hawks???? If anything Atlanta makes more excuses on why they should NOT support the Hawks. Last season was a perfect example, can you please tell me which team in the NBA (or any sport for that matter) does not come out to support a team that is number 3 amongst its peers? Even though we beat almost every team in the nba at least once or multiple times, swept Boston, and had some of the most exciting games this city has had in a long time?

Atlanta Excuses:

1.) Traffic: People complain about traffic but 80,000 plus atliens figure out a way to get downtown to see a Monday night Falcons game.

2.) Downtown is to dangerous: Downtown Atlanta is surrounded by office buildings, shops, and a park, Turner field is smack damn in the middle of the ghetto. Also see point number one

3.) Cant make weekday games: I went to a Braves game on a Thursday at NOON last year and there were at least 16,000 in the building.

4.) The Hawks suck: Hawks had one of the best records in the east.

The ownerships Job is to put a good product on the court and the have done decent at that, but I do not think that the fans of this city have done their part when it comes to the Atlanta Hawks, this city treats the Hawks like the RED HEADED STEP CHILD. When they do bad its OH THIS TEAM AND OWNERSHIP GROUPS SUCKS!! And when they win its MEH....they will lose the next one. WHERE IS THE SUPPORT???? Last year the Falcons sold out a 60,000 seat dome because they had a "winning record"? Come on Atlanta, I know its "football" but give me a break.

Don't get me wrong though, this organization has made some f#$%ed up decisions over the years (imo jj's contract being one of them) but it happens, and in spite of that, the Hawks are a pretty decent team who I believe can beat anybody. This was proven last year with the exception of Orlando. I don't post here much but why is everyone on these Atlanta Hawks boards so infatuated with trading Josh Smith?? Who can we get for him that is better?......Don't worry I'll wait...................................................................................................................................................................................................................at the moment no one, and I would only trade Josh for a superstar, because like it or not Josh puts up superstar numbers. Josh, and Al are our 2 best players. I believe this team probably needs a trade but NOT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF TRADING. You make trades to improve your team or improve at the position, not just because Orlando made a "blockbuster" trade, what sense does that make, especially when the city already doesnt support you, it would just make things worse.

No this NBA team does not have all of the pieces it needs to win a championship but, there are also about 25 other NBA teams in the same situation. Its not very simple to just get those pieces. Like I said, trades are made to better a position not just for the sake of trade.

Back to the support thing, this post is another example of what I am talking about. The Hawks just won a game on the road, in a come back situation (yes I know it was the clippers) with three of our best players scoring above 20, and instead of being proud of our guys for hanging in there and rising to the occasion, they get bashed with post like this. What player would what to play for a whole city like that? I know I wouldn't. So what if we had Chris Paul, with the same record that we have now (or worse) would that make you all happy? Would you support the team then? What if we traded Josh for a player who did B$tch and complain to the refs so much, do you think that will help the team when it comes to actual basketball? The grass isn't always greener on the other side folks and a lot of teams walk a fine line between being holding a ring and holding there faces in the NBA. Again I don't post here much but I do read a lot. STOP WHINING SO MUCH HAWKS FANS!!!!

Dude let me tell you something...

I have supported this team for 25 years. When we won 13 games, I was laughed out of bars for mentioning our young talent. In the military, deployed to the field, watching the playoffs over satellite I have had the whole unit, men and women, laughing at me because I'm rooting for the Hawks over the Bulls - and laughing because the guys are talking about how boring my team is. Laughing because the Pacer fans filled up the arena and are booing my team on their home court. Today, I got people bringing me framed pictures of Ray Allen shooting jumpers. I got cats hanging Celtics jerseys on my office door. Hanging Mikey Mouse ears on my office window. I've endured that for 25 years. I've got Hawks gear, hawks posters, I watch every game I can catch on TV, and I've been to games and BOUGHT F'N TICKETS when my sister in law gets them FREE from her job - and I live 100 miles SOUTH of Atlanta. I'll be taking my boys this year to their first game and they will become lifelong Hawks fans as well.

My fondest Hawks memory didn't even come from a game. I got a phone call from Grant Long, one of my favorite Hawks players. His company delivered pharmaceuticals to my wife's office back around 2002-2003. I spoke with him for like 20-30 minutes about basketball and the Hawks. We laughed and we agreed on a lot of things. He told me LA was interested in him and he was undecided. I told him that he needed to "get his *ss out to LA and get a ring". At the end of the conversation he seemed surprised that I was such a fan. He was impressed that I knew when players were drafted, when players were traded, what specific problems were with specific teams, and that I knew so much about him.

Don't talk to me about being a fan or supporting the team. Don't even bring that bullsh#t my way. Everybody posting on this site is a true fan. Else they wouldn't be here.

This isn't about being a fan or supporting the team. It isn't about whining. It's about the truth. Maybe you didn't watch the teams in the 90's. Maybe you didn't see that team win 40+-50+ games a year and get slaughtered in the playoffs. I did. Maybe you weren't there for the CLOSEST we ever got to the ECF's only to come up just short in a game 7. I was. Maybe you didn't watch Babcock throw away draft picks. Maybe you weren't there when we made the mistake of trying to win games at the end of the 2004 season. Maybe you didn't see this team drafting it's future, but giving the ball to Harrington and Walker.

Maybe you're just another guy who has no clue how to win. No matter what you come up with or what you say, the fact that this team hasn't been out of the 2nd round in 40 years should tell you something. FORTY YEARS. Discounting expansion clubs, we're the only team that can say that other than the Clippers. In that time, several teams have gone full circle twice. Why can't we?

You think this team can? Before you even answer that question, know that I'm still going to watch the games and I'm still going to pay my money to go see them regardless. But do you honestly think that this team can get passed the Celtics in the 2nd round? With that veteran offense, powered by three of the best to ever play, a great coach (that by all means SHOULD HAVE been coaching us), and a smothering defense that will put its hands all over us? You think we can get passed Miami? A team that is just about the same as us defensively, maybe even a little better if you look at the raw numbers, but a team that has THREE, All NBA, go to players? Really? And our nemesis...Orlando? Oh we beat them this year and I thought we could have done better against them last year - but holy sh!t...guess what? They got a new team! And we're not even talking playoff basketball...which is another animal altogether.

...and that's IF we can get by a team like Chicago or New York in the 1st round.

The teams that win? Know that the game on the court is a game of ADJUSTMENTS. You have to recognize when the game plan must change in order to win. They also know that the game off the court is exactly the same. Teams make changes in order to adjust to what everyone else is doing because certain things make teams just a little bit better sometimes and A LOT better at others. Boozer to Chicago might have been one of one of those things - they are currently the 3rd seed in the East. DiAntoni and Amare to NY might have been the moves in NY - we are currently neck and neck with them. Orlando's changes have netted them 5 wins in a row, with convincing victories against two teams we haven't beat - Boston and San Antonio.

Oh! But we just beat...........................the CLIPPERS!

Josh Smith is a good player. He's a good all around player and a great fit. He's not a guy you can depend on for scoring. They will get up on him and force him to put the ball on the floor - and then it will go the other way. He needs work on his post game and his jumper is not going to save us in the the long run.

Horford is the most promising player we have and we need to keep him. Even still, he's got that shot from 15-18 and no real post game. We're not going to win shooting jump shots. If he's at the 4, that means Collins or ZaZa is at the 5 - NEITHER are going to give us the low post scoring (or scoring period) we need to get to the next level. If he's at the 5, he's out of position playing bigger guys and it's going to be much harder to get that low post shot off. He will also be the only low post threat, as Josh will be operating perimeter (HOPEFULLY not turning the ball over). Bottom line, it's on Horf to get those points in the paint (and we need them). So far, I have seen a guy that can consistently get his jumpshot off. I haven't seen a guy that dominates in the post.

Depending on Mike Bibby for scoring is just suicide. Bibby is good for the occasional shot. The more he takes, the more you'll see that little shot off the dribble that is much less dependable than the spot up 3. Regardless...we're talking jumpshots here. It's great to have shooters, but you need guys that can score inside or GET inside and draw attention. The history of the game shows it. The shots will stop falling and the rebounds will be long and the ball will go the other way. You need a balance inside and out. Bibby gives us suspect defense, no penetration, no breaking down of the defense, no drawing the defense - just an outside shot. Just like Horf, just like Smoove, just like Crawford, just like JJ, just like....Marvin.

Marvin should be driving and posting up. He should be using that hook that was so good for about 15 or so games a couple seasons ago. He should be taking guys off the dribble, but I don't think he's worked on it - because he's just as uncoordinated and awkward as ever getting into the paint. He was brilliant at getting to the line, but this is Marvin we're talking about. He SHOULD BE giving us a lot of things, but he's going to stand there, pass the ball, and he's not going to step up. He is what he is.

When we need scoring is at the beginning of the game, setting the tone. Beginning the 2nd half, trying to maintain what we have or build it. Crawford is coming off the bench - so strike one right there. I love Crawford as a 6th man though and I like his game. Problem is, he is the anti-motion offense. He's a guy that needs a lot of ball time to shake his man and hit the pull up jumper - and I'll say it again jumper. He doesn't really draw the defense because his penetration stops at about 10-15 feet and it's a jumpshot. Every once in a while, we'll get a circus shot - that sometimes falls. There is no drive and kick to the open guy and there is no ball movement usually once he gets it. He's a good scorer and a perfect guy coming off the bench to give us some bench production, but it's jumpshots, it's 1 on 1 ball, and he is vulnerable to a good zone defense.

Which really brings us all the way to JJ...

Joe Johnson would be the guy you depend on for scoring, and he's struggling with this system. JJ's game is getting into the lane with that big body. But the ball is moving so he doesn't have as much time to operate. He's not fast and he's not athletic, so he isn't going to blow by guys or jump over them early in the clock. He's got extremely good handles and he's strong, so a few moves and he's in good position...but he's not getting that done this year. He's also not hitting from downtown - he's hitting 26%. Compare that to your league leaders. For our "All Star", go to, franchise guy...that isn't going to cut it. Moreover, if they find a way to shut him down in the playoffs...and OMG...they've done that for the past 3 trips...we're toast. Buttered toast.

We're winning against bad teams because we have guys that can hit shots - and we're moving the ball making it harder to guard us. We're losing against good teams because we need guys that can make shots when it counts - when CP3, KG, Kobe, etc. are in unstoppable mode. And that's what stars do. That's why they win. We can blame it on defensive lapses, and I will agree. You can't win without defense - and believe it or not, it's one of my keys to winning. I love players who play good D - Mookie, Grant Long, Mutombo, Josh Smith (not coincidentally my favorite Hawks). However, no matter how good your defense is...you're not going to win if you can't put the ball in the basket on the other end. If you can't stop LeBron from scoring and you can't trade baskets with him, you are going to LOSE.

The bottom line isn't that we have bad players. And I think that's where many people are getting confused. Our players are not bad. Nobody but Hotlanta thinks that. We've got a lot of good players that if you put them elsewhere, they'd put a team over the top. But see...that's the key. Why can't they put US over the top. It's simple. Together, all these really good pieces that we have make a FLAWED team. The flaw is, we're good - just good enough.

I did a lot of barking at the beginning of this...but I'll wrap it up and walk away with something simple.

Argue all you want - you will be another bookmark for me to quietly nod my head at 3 years from now when we're in the same position from not making any moves. It's not change for the sake of change. It's change because unless you have a championship core, you cannot sit still in the NBA and expect to win. Even then...teams are still making significant change.

[Sothron]

Anyone who takes the time to find this site, the only Atlanta Hawks fansite that I even know of, and takes time time register and post is a true Hawks fan. We can agree or disagree but if you post here you are a fan of the team.

Wretch's last post is a story I think most of us here can repeat with some variation: we're probably the only Hawks fan amongst their sports buddies and we've followed this team faithfully for many years.

[frosgrim]

WOW.....I am truly shocked at this post (well not really). While I agree with some of your points I am going to have to say that I disagree with your main point. Since when has this city made excuses for the Atlanta Hawks???? If anything Atlanta makes more excuses on why they should NOT support the Hawks. Last season was a perfect example, can you please tell me which team in the NBA (or any sport for that matter) does not come out to support a team that is number 3 amongst its peers? Even though we beat almost every team in the nba at least once or multiple times, swept Boston, and had some of the most exciting games this city has had in a long time?

Atlanta Excuses:

1.) Traffic: People complain about traffic but 80,000 plus atliens figure out a way to get downtown to see a Monday night Falcons game.

2.) Downtown is to dangerous: Downtown Atlanta is surrounded by office buildings, shops, and a park, Turner field is smack damn in the middle of the ghetto. Also see point number one

3.) Cant make weekday games: I went to a Braves game on a Thursday at NOON last year and there were at least 16,000 in the building.

4.) The Hawks suck: Hawks had one of the best records in the east.

The ownerships Job is to put a good product on the court and the have done decent at that, but I do not think that the fans of this city have done their part when it comes to the Atlanta Hawks, this city treats the Hawks like the RED HEADED STEP CHILD. When they do bad its OH THIS TEAM AND OWNERSHIP GROUPS SUCKS!! And when they win its MEH....they will lose the next one. WHERE IS THE SUPPORT???? Last year the Falcons sold out a 60,000 seat dome because they had a "winning record"? Come on Atlanta, I know its "football" but give me a break.

Don't get me wrong though, this organization has made some f#$%ed up decisions over the years (imo jj's contract being one of them) but it happens, and in spite of that, the Hawks are a pretty decent team who I believe can beat anybody. This was proven last year with the exception of Orlando. I don't post here much but why is everyone on these Atlanta Hawks boards so infatuated with trading Josh Smith?? Who can we get for him that is better?......Don't worry I'll wait...................................................................................................................................................................................................................at the moment no one, and I would only trade Josh for a superstar, because like it or not Josh puts up superstar numbers. Josh, and Al are our 2 best players. I believe this team probably needs a trade but NOT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF TRADING. You make trades to improve your team or improve at the position, not just because Orlando made a "blockbuster" trade, what sense does that make, especially when the city already doesnt support you, it would just make things worse.

No this NBA team does not have all of the pieces it needs to win a championship but, there are also about 25 other NBA teams in the same situation. Its not very simple to just get those pieces. Like I said, trades are made to better a position not just for the sake of trade.

Back to the support thing, this post is another example of what I am talking about. The Hawks just won a game on the road, in a come back situation (yes I know it was the clippers) with three of our best players scoring above 20, and instead of being proud of our guys for hanging in there and rising to the occasion, they get bashed with post like this. What player would what to play for a whole city like that? I know I wouldn't. So what if we had Chris Paul, with the same record that we have now (or worse) would that make you all happy? Would you support the team then? What if we traded Josh for a player who did B$tch and complain to the refs so much, do you think that will help the team when it comes to actual basketball? The grass isn't always greener on the other side folks and a lot of teams walk a fine line between being holding a ring and holding there faces in the NBA. Again I don't post here much but I do read a lot. STOP WHINING SO MUCH HAWKS FANS!!!!

You obviously haven't lived outside of Atlanta, or at least haven't lived in the NE. I lived in the Boston market for many years, and I can tell you this is EXACTLY what Boston fans do on a daily basis. Every win has a problem, every loss is the worst ever (or evah considering the accent). Boston fans let ownership know when they aren't happy. They first voice it on the air, but when the teams get into perpetual losing like the Cs were before the big 3, or the year before the Epstien era began, people stopped going to the games. The Celtics were playing to 12,000 or less on many nights. The mighty Fenway was more than half empty when the Red Sox were out of playoff contention in August. Point is, if Boston, which is roundly considered one of the best sports cities in the world can have fans not showing up for their teams, it is no wonder that Atlanta doesn't show for the Hawks.

The Hawks have no pedigree of winning. We've had some good teams. Wretch does an excellent job of pointing out the problems with this club. More fans like Wretch and the others who post here and say it like they see is what is needed to get ownership to turn the ship. For example, Blank listened when people stopped paying attention to the Falcons. What did he do? He replaced the GM and then got out of the way of the new GM. In other words, Blank learned that owners shouldn't consider themselves to be the GM. Let the lifers figure things out, but supply them with the necessary resources. For owners, when the team starts to win, bask in the glory of winning and know that it was your vision to give these men the resources and trust needed to make good decisions.

The Hawks are my hometown team, but the ASG makes it hard to cheer them on. They make it really hard.