Tired of Excuses for This Team

[Vol4ever]

This is the best and most honest thread on Hawksquawk in years. YES we are all Hawks fans and were are sick and tired of the ASG!

[BudBall]

I HATE BEING A LIMBO NBA TEAM.

[HawkItus]

Don't give up. If the Falcons can get things right so can the Hawks. Heck the Falcons just started having consecutive winning seasons.

[benhillboy]

More excuses to come. The AJC quoted Drew on talking to Bibby about "being tired" 35 games in. This should be interesting, being that Bibby is one of the least athletic and most immobile players currently in the NBA, let alone starters. Jason Kidd would look at you like you were crazy if posed that same question. I guess the rigorous preseason conditioning and running wasn't a good idea for Old Man Bibs.

Edited January 3, 2011 by benhillboy

[tremor]

First, excellent post, Wretch. Very well said.

Many excuses that appeared lately on HS were made in (explicit or implicit) context of comparison to last season, so they're not aimed to justify Hawks recent performance per se.

The team is flawed, I don't think anyone would deny that. But talking about it day after day makes me tired. I try to take good with the bad and find some positives in current situation and maybe what can go well in the future.

[niremetal]

You obviously haven't lived outside of Atlanta, or at least haven't lived in the NE. I lived in the Boston market for many years, and I can tell you this is EXACTLY what Boston fans do on a daily basis. Every win has a problem, every loss is the worst ever (or evah considering the accent). Boston fans let ownership know when they aren't happy. They first voice it on the air, but when the teams get into perpetual losing like the Cs were before the big 3, or the year before the Epstien era began, people stopped going to the games. The Celtics were playing to 12,000 or less on many nights. The mighty Fenway was more than half empty when the Red Sox were out of playoff contention in August. Point is, if Boston, which is roundly considered one of the best sports cities in the world can have fans not showing up for their teams, it is no wonder that Atlanta doesn't show for the Hawks.

The Hawks have no pedigree of winning. We've had some good teams. Wretch does an excellent job of pointing out the problems with this club. More fans like Wretch and the others who post here and say it like they see is what is needed to get ownership to turn the ship. For example, Blank listened when people stopped paying attention to the Falcons. What did he do? He replaced the GM and then got out of the way of the new GM. In other words, Blank learned that owners shouldn't consider themselves to be the GM. Let the lifers figure things out, but supply them with the necessary resources. For owners, when the team starts to win, bask in the glory of winning and know that it was your vision to give these men the resources and trust needed to make good decisions.

The Hawks are my hometown team, but the ASG makes it hard to cheer them on. They make it really hard.

First off, anyone who compares Boston fans to Atlanta fans in any way, shape, or form needs to have their head examined. Parents pass down team loyalties in Boston like family heirlooms. In Atlanta, most of the population wasn't even born in the city and the natives who are there are generally apathetic towards pro sports, which didn't even arrive in the region until the 1960's, and basketball (which is the third most popular sport at best in the South and was the last to arrive professionally). Yeah, they roast their teams for every flaw. But at least they show up to the damned games to do it.

Second, there is absolutely no sense comparing the attendance situations of the Celtics and Hawks specifically. Never has been. The Celtics were the NBA's original dynasty. They, the Lakers, and the Knicks could trot out a D3 squad and still turn a profit. The Celtics' attendance when they lost 50 games in 06-07 is better than the Hawks' attendance was when they won 50 games last year. The Hawks' attendance issues have been consistent throughout its existence, including the time of Nique and Turner. The Hawks finished dead last in the NBA in attendance in Nique's last full season as a Hawk, despite the fact that 15 teams finished with worse records that year. Never once has the team finished in the top third of the league in attendance. ASG has done a crappy job building the roster, but blaming them for poor hometown support is ridiculous. The Hawks have always had terrible hometown support and their attendance has always lagged well behind their ranking in the standings, and anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

That's the thing that annoys me. Blaming ASG for doing a crappy job of building the team is fair. But blaming them for the fact that fans don't support the team is a cop out, because fans not showing up is old hat for Atlanta pro sports teams generally and for the Hawks especially.

Edited January 3, 2011 by niremetal

[phoostal]

Wretch thanks for responding to the earlier poster I've been at work all day. I think he misunderstood my original post, I never suggested not to support this team. I do find it bizarre that we should get excited about a comeback win against the Clippers. Don't get me wrong I'm happy we won. Yet I think its that kind of attitude that accepts average play that lets the ASG off the hook. I want us to be great not slightly above average and ownership should want that as well.

I started this thread to voice my frustration, I guess in hopes that maybe ownership would get a hold of this and do something in the positive for this team. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

As some have mentioned it is like beating a dead horse we have said our piece and now we just accept the aftermath. I will always be a fan, its just sad a lot of us can see this being more than what it is right now. We just wish ownership would give a damn to do something.

By the way Wretch don't feel like your the only one that gets abuse by other fans about liking the Hawks. I live in Orlando for the last 17 years and I go to all the games when the Hawks come into town and its brutal. Especially last year in the playoffs. I wanted to crawl under a rock, however I stood by my Hawks with pride. As tough as it was to do. LOL.

P

[Dejay]

Wretch pretty much took the words right off of my keyboard and as Soth said, nearly every longtime Hawks fan on this board have a similar story to tell. I wouldn't dare question the fandom of any member of this board, especially the old heads like Diesel, Grey Mule, Vol4ever, Ex, Walter, GSUTeke, and countless others who were venting their frustrations along with me on the old AJC forum days before HS was created.

If this team was in any other town with their credentials (or lack thereof), they would have just as hard a time putting butts in the stands as they do here; especially if that town had at least three other pro teams (not even counting the minor league hockey, baseball, and arena league team), two major college programs within an hour's drive, and a half-dozen more within a stone's throw of that. I for one am sick to my stomach with the '25 other teams don't have the pieces, either' and 'there are other cities who would die to have a team like ours' crap. That's the same sorry line the Braves' front office trotted out after the Padres, Giants, Cubs, Marlins, and Astros finished splashing champagne on each other in the middle of Turner Field and you know what? After awhile, it got tired. Folks decided to take a 'show me and prove me wrong this time' approach before buying tickets and were proven right, which explains why the stands were empty in the latter half of their divisional run. The same approach were taken with Nique's teams, Smitty's teams, and now, this one.

After over 40 years of never hanging up a banner that matters, I for one cannot blame the folks for being gunshy about supporting the team anymore. A franchise that's never played beyond the second round of the playoffs since Petit's heyday? A franchise who shipped it's all-time leading scorer to NBA Siberia in the midst of a 57-win campaign with no Jordan, Bird, Isiah, or Magic to deal with for a guy who all but blew smoke signals that he didn't want to be here? A franchise who until last season went over a quarter-century between drafting an All-Star player? A franchise who got embarrassed in record-setting fashion in the playoffs, yet their GM touted them as an 'elite' team in the league?

Sure, there are other towns who would love to have NBA basketball in their city but I'm not too sure that they would want this organization after the newness wears off. Not after the first and second-round knockout become commonplace and they go crying to every message board and sports talk station about how change is needed, only for the status quo to remain the same (how many of us have been there?). Not after some dolt in the owner's box goes on the radio to talk about 'you people' not buying enough $55 tickets and $7 nachos for them to spend the $$$ necessary to get them to go to the arena in the first place. But we're supposed to be blindly loyal and buy up tickets to see a product that isn't even trying to break into elite status and only went for the gold once (1987-88) in their entire Atlanta existence.

Well, count me out and call me a jaded, spoiled Atlanta fan. I want a franchise who dares to be great and when I find a team who attempts to do just that (see Falcons, Atlanta), I'm the first one at their ticket offices with my wallet out. I have zero patience for the 'five year plan', especially when I see a team like Boston, who was in as bad a shape as the Hawks were three years ago, make a few moves and voila, their head coach is smoking cigars while being fitted for a championship ring. It gets mighty old watching teams who weren't even around 25 years ago (Heat and Magic) make the Finals while you're still waiting on your team to get to its first conference finals since Nixon was running the show. But yet, we should be grateful that we're not the Nets or the Pacers? Hello, even those teams can pop in a DVD of their run to the Finals; can we?

Edited January 3, 2011 by Dejay

[CODHAWKSFAN]

Thanks for the replies guys. Hmm where do I start?....ok

1st I don't believe I ever said that anyone on this board was not a "real Hawks fan" where did that come from, paranoia?? PLEASE read my comment again and point out where I said this, and if I said it, then I would gladly apologize.

2nd I will address those who addressed me specifically:

@vol4ever, I have been a fan of the Atlanta Hawks for 9 years will be 10 in March, and while I may not have been around as long as some of you, I do think that I have been around long enough to voice my opinion on this team, city and its fans. Vol4ever you are one of the veterans on this board from what I see and I respect that, but in regards to my comments/opinions on Josh Smith, can you please tell me what you THINK I don't understand? Yes Josh b@$ches and complains to the refs sometimes but the kid is a stud and is one of the most dynamic, athletic, productive,feared (in the paint), popular, players on this team, not to mention he is the home town kid, and you mean to tell me that you want to get rid of him because of his attitude?? Please explain because I would rather have Josh, than a "nice" unproductive player. And how else would you define him having a bad attitude other than his occasional pout on the court (which I havent seen this year)? He is always respectful to the fans, he is able to hold his own NOW when talking to the media, he gives back to the community, he is willing to have fun during commercials (who else on our team does commercials) Josh Smith is our true hometown star, it is beyond me why the team doesn't market him as such around the city. Getting rid of him will be the whole Dominique thing all over again.

@Wretch, dude I understand that you wanted to get some frustration out, and it was a good post to voice your opinion, but if it was directed at me then it was uncalled for. Again I didn't say or doubt how much of a fan that anyone on this site is, all I said was stop whining and pointed out the REAL excuses that are made for people not showing up to games or supporting this team the way they should. Not at you or anyone on this board specifically but the city of Atlanta as a whole. With all due respect IMO I think that you are a little jaded, but I am happy to know that you are still a Hawks fan after all the frustrations throughout the years. Hell I am frustrated too but it is more so directed to the marketing of this team and its players and the occasional lack of effort on the players part. Oh and the JJ contract uhhhh.

@frosgrim, You couldn't be more wrong my friend, I am a very well traveled man who has lived in 3 other cities prior to this one. 15 years in L.A. 4 years in New york 2 in Miami and 9 in Atlanta plus I travel every now and then. LOL whats funny is that the traveling is the reason that I feel the way that I do about this city when it comes to its fan base and the excuses that they make.

@niremetal, thanks for saving me the typing time, with your comment to frosgrim, IMO that is the truth and not another excuse.

Randy and Macdaddy your opinions make sense thanks for the post.

To everyone else on this board, I know that I am new here but please do not mistake my post number for lack of knowledge of this game, this city, or its fans, I am not saying that I know everything but i do know a few things. I am glad to be a member on this board and look forward to future post.

[Wretch]

@Wretch, dude I understand that you wanted to get some frustration out, and it was a good post to voice your opinion, but if it was directed at me then it was uncalled for. Again I didn't say or doubt how much of a fan that anyone on this site is, all I said was

Clarify this for me:

Back to the support thing, this post is another example of what I am talking about. The Hawks just won a game on the road, in a come back situation (yes I know it was the clippers) with three of our best players scoring above 20, and instead of being proud of our guys for hanging in there and rising to the occasion, they get bashed with post like this. What player would what to play for a whole city like that? I know I wouldn't. So what if we had Chris Paul, with the same record that we have now (or worse) would that make you all happy? Would you support the team then?

Edited January 4, 2011 by Wretch

[Joker]

I just got word that Steve Nash could be heading to Atlanta but the hold up is Atlanta doesn't want to trade Marvin. The trade would revolve around Marvin, Crawford, Childress(can't come back to Atlanta thanks to rules), Hill, and Nash. We will see what will happen.

[CODHAWKSFAN]

Clarify this for me:

I'm not going to kiss your A@@ if that is what you were expecting...lol but yes what I said is how I felt about the original post and his or her comments about excuses. When I say you all, I am referring to this city as a whole....consider it my vent. Not once did I say you or the original poster were not Hawks fans, but the whiny, jaded, attitude is what I am sick of. Its ok to be upset, and post your frustrations, in SOME PART that is what this board is for, but when the word excuses came up, it struck a nerve with me because this city is known by many to be the town of many excuses on why they don't support the Hawks THE WAY THEY SHOULD. This brings me back to my "Red Headed Step Child" theory, Baseball, and Football are Atlanta's darlings WIN OR LOSE granted the Falcons are doing wonderful now, when was the last time they did anything 98? Still no hardware, but the city, the Atlanta media, and fans still supported them, through thick and thin with their wallets wide open, but you don't hear their fans talking about what happened umpteen years ago, playoff tickets sold out in the first 5 minutes.

Now I am not trying to turn this into a football vs. baseball vs. basketball, thread because we know who would win that one but, with as many people that this city has it makes no sense to me.

Edited January 4, 2011 by CODHAWKSFAN

[Wretch]

I'm not going to kiss your A@@ if that is what you were expecting...lol but yes what I said is how I felt about the original post and his or her comments about excuses. When I say you all, I am referring to this city as a whole....consider it my vent. Not once did I say you or the original poster were not Hawks fans, but the whiny, jaded, attitude is what I am sick of. Its ok to be upset, and post your frustrations, in SOME PART that is what this board is for, but when the word excuses came up, it struck a nerve with me because this city is known by many to be the town of many excuses on why they don't support the Hawks THE WAY THEY SHOULD. This brings me back to my "Red Headed Step Child" theory, Baseball, and Football are Atlanta's darlings WIN OR LOSE granted the Falcons are doing wonderful now, when was the last time they did anything 98? Still no hardware, but the city, the Atlanta media, and fans still supported them, through thick and thin with their wallets wide open, but you don't hear their fans talking about what happened umpteen years ago, playoff tickets sold out in the first 5 minutes.

Now I am not trying to turn this into a football vs. baseball vs. basketball, thread because we know who would win that one but, with as many people that this city has it makes no sense to me.

Don't be shy about it. When you say "you all" you are directing your post at everyone who has something negative to say about the team. Else, you'd be standing in the middle of Atlanta or in a bar somewhere berating the people who actually DON'T support the team.

You all...whine too much about a team that is winning and on pace to win 45+ games.

You all...do not support a team that is winning. Even after a game won, on the road, in a comeback situation.

You all...want change for the sake of change (despite the fact that this essentially is business as usual for champions and non-champions in the NBA)

You all...post useless threads and opinions about trading part of our core, when we can get nothing equal or better in return.

You all...do not appreciate a club full of very good players (Josh Smith and Al Horford who are the best players on this team that YOU feel can beat anybody).

You all...do not support this team.

That is what you implied, that is what you meant, and that is what you said in so many words, and I responded to every point you made. We have a right to complain about this team because we have followed the team. All of us...since day one of the rebuilding, most of us long before that. NOBODY has a right to make excuses for a franchise that IN 40 YEARS hasn't put a club on the floor that cannot get out of the 2nd round. THAT is the reason why "nobody" supports the club. We don't have a thrilling conference finals appearance like Sacramento. No Finals appearance like Dallas. No history like LA and Boston. No Voltron, ECFs, or championship ring like Miami. No Ewing or finals or championships like NY. No finals appearances or Barkely's, Julius Ervings, or AI's like Philly. We don't have a Kevin Durant or John Wall. There is no HISTORY here. We haven't made any...except disappointing, uninspiring, playoff whooping after playoff whooping. Not in the history of the club in Atlanta. The closest we got was Nique and we dumped his *ss in the middle of our best season ever. It's not a vent. It's the damn truth.

What we have is a history of what we have now...good but not good enough and NO face that can rally the town. THAT is why nobody gives a damn about the team.

No I do not want your asskissing or any sort of appreciation or acknoweldgement...because I don't operate like that and because you are wrong. You are wrong in your assumptions. You are wrong in your approach. And you are wrong if you think this team is any closer to getting out of the 2nd round than any team we have had in the last 25 or so years. But that is my opinion...you are free to express yours too. That's what this board is for.

(...by the way, you do know that the guy who is coaching this team...y'know...the guy who is directing the collective fate of 12 or so of the best basketball players in the world...he wants change too. You do know that, right? Go tell Drew that we're fine and change isn't in order.)

Oddly enough...you remind me of EDS. A guy that in 2004, chased me down saying that USA basketball players weren't the best in the world and it wouldn't matter if we put our best on the floor. How'd that turn out if you're still out there lurking?

[AHF]

I just got word that Steve Nash could be heading to Atlanta but the hold up is Atlanta doesn't want to trade Marvin. The trade would revolve around Marvin, Crawford, Childress(can't come back to Atlanta thanks to rules), Hill, and Nash. We will see what will happen.

What is the source of the word you got?

(Also, I am not sure I understand how the trade involves Chills when you say instantly that he can't be traded here. Are you talking about a three-way rumor?)

[mrhonline]

I just got word that Steve Nash could be heading to Atlanta but the hold up is Atlanta doesn't want to trade Marvin. The trade would revolve around Marvin, Crawford, Childress(can't come back to Atlanta thanks to rules), Hill, and Nash. We will see what will happen.

[GameTime]

I just got word that Steve Nash could be heading to Atlanta but the hold up is Atlanta doesn't want to trade Marvin. The trade would revolve around Marvin, Crawford, Childress(can't come back to Atlanta thanks to rules), Hill, and Nash. We will see what will happen.

I need some sources or something. Forget Marv you get this done. Grant Hill looks younger/better than Marv this year anyway.

[drzachary]

I love the 'bad fans' meme and the arguments that result, especially arguing with media types who cover the team, and even work for the team. Twitter's made that pretty easy.

To put it simply: I believe that anyone who says the Atlanta Hawks have "bad fans" has missed the point. To simply say that the Atlanta Hawks have "bad fans" is ignorant, insulting and lazy.

The truth is this: the Atlanta Hawks don't have enough fans. And creating new fans from non-fans lies squarely upon the shoulders of those who manage the team, those who cover it, and those who set foot on the court. The fans the Atlanta Hawks have are great. Some are hilariously delusional (Diesel), some are explicit and lawyerly in their vigor for debating the team (AHF), and some are grizzled veterans who serve as an example to us all (Graymule.) (Some are smarmy and sarcastic (drzachary.)) But we are all great, great fans, and, since we're the ones who care, we're the only ones who will ever hear or read the "Hawks have bad fans" meme. So to those saying and writing it:

Shut it. You can't block my shine.

[CWebb]

I just got word that Steve Nash could be heading to Atlanta but the hold up is Atlanta doesn't want to trade Marvin. The trade would revolve around Marvin, Crawford, Childress(can't come back to Atlanta thanks to rules), Hill, and Nash. We will see what will happen.

What's the point ? You only bring frustration

[CODHAWKSFAN]

@wretch,

I see what kind of poster you are and seen many like you (from this conversation anyway). You are picking little bits and pieces from what I say, flipping them then turning them into a personal attack. Answer this specifically and don't try to change the subject and come back with a rally comment like "you are not attacking me you are attacking all of us Hawks fans that have supported this team for years": Pay attention, did you honestly thoroughly read my comments?? Because this is twice now that you are trying use words that I did not type to prove your point. Look back at my original comment, I clearly said YES THIS TEAM NEEDS A TRADE, meaning that I am not happy or content with what we have either. I just simply don't think that Josh or Al should be included in those discussions unless it is for a big name or high caliber player, and a trade should be made to improve your team not just for trade. GET IT PLEASE

After you answer that please answer this. Yes you are right the Atlanta Hawks have not made it past the second round, I will give you that but, do you honestly believe that the Atlanta Hawks have no history/iconic players? Come on man you have been a Hawks fan for a long time, you know better. Lets try Lenny Wilkens, Lou Hudson, Mutombo? You don't remember the finger? How about this.... does a guy named Dominique Wilkens ring a bell or did you forget about him too? I know you mentioned him but he is not just a Hawks legend, he is a NBA LEGEND, ONE OF THE ALL TIME GREATS!

And lastly you say that I am wrong, wrong in my assumptions, wrong in my approach...I lol'ed at that one. What or how am I wrong by voicing my opinion on what I feel is an excuse? Especially when:

1.) You APPROACHED my comments and ASSUMED that I am attacking you and your loyalty to the Hawks

2.) You ASSUME that I am content with the way this team is, (even though I clearly stated that this team needs a trade).

3.) You ASSUMED that I know little about this teams history.

Now you tell me who is doing the wrong assuming and approaching?

[CODHAWKSFAN]

I love the 'bad fans' meme and the arguments that result, especially arguing with media types who cover the team, and even work for the team. Twitter's made that pretty easy.

To put it simply: I believe that anyone who says the Atlanta Hawks have "bad fans" has missed the point. To simply say that the Atlanta Hawks have "bad fans" is ignorant, insulting and lazy.

The truth is this: the Atlanta Hawks don't have enough fans. And creating new fans from non-fans lies squarely upon the shoulders of those who manage the team, those who cover it, and those who set foot on the court. The fans the Atlanta Hawks have are great. Some are hilariously delusional (Diesel), some are explicit and lawyerly in their vigor for debating the team (AHF), and some are grizzled veterans who serve as an example to us all (Graymule.) (Some are smarmy and sarcastic (drzachary.)) But we are all great, great fans, and, since we're the ones who care, we're the only ones who will ever hear or read the "Hawks have bad fans" meme. So to those saying and writing it:

Shut it. You can't block my shine.

Easily the best post of the evening, this makes some sense, although I do not think that everyone that considers themselves a "Hawks fan" great. but for the most part yes Atlanta needs more b ball fans.