Defensive rebounding

[Brokentree]

You are looking at per 48 stats on a player who plays 9 minutes per game. He is Royal Ivey. Ultimately you have to be on the floor to make an impact. Collins has played fewer minutes than any big on the roster other than Etan.

How can Collins make an impact on the game if he isn't actually in the game?

And you are getting sidetracked talking about defense overall vs defensive rebounding.

Even 9 minutes a game is 9 minutes of rest for someone else. It might not be a case of Collins physically doing anything other then "holding down the fort" while our better players stay more rested and therefore more effective. The less players we have at a certain position the more valueable the minutes they can provide are.

[exodus]

Even 9 minutes a game is 9 minutes of rest for someone else. It might not be a case of Collins physically doing anything other then "holding down the fort" while our better players stay more rested and therefore more effective. The less players we have at a certain position the more valueable the minutes they can provide are.

Huh? You are going to have to explain that one to me. smith and Horford are both playing 34 minutes per game. Having Horford spend a little less time guarding opposing centers might help him but i fail to see how that would have much effect on rebounding, especially considering how bad Collins is on the boards.

For perspective the Hawks have played 38 games and Collins has 45 defensive rebounds total. That is 1.2 per game.

[Brokentree]

Huh? You are going to have to explain that one to me. smith and Horford are both playing 34 minutes per game. Having Horford spend a little less time guarding opposing centers might help him but i fail to see how that would have much effect on rebounding, especially considering how bad Collins is on the boards.

For perspective the Hawks have played 38 games and Collins has 45 defensive rebounds total. That is 1.2 per game.

2010 minutes vs 2011 minutes with defensive rebounds per game for our top 4 defensive rebounders

Al Horford 35.1 - 7.0drb to 34.2 - 7.1drb

Josh Smith 35.4 - 6.0drb to 34.1 - 6.9drb

Marvin Williams 30.5 - 3.8drb to 30.0 - 3.8drb

J Johnson 38.0 - 3.7drb to 36.0 - 3.4drb

Total difference in minutes per game 2010 vs 2011 is 4.7 less minutes per game for 2011

Total difference in defensive rebounds per game 2010 vs 2011 is .7 rebounds more per game for 2011.

So our best defensive rebounders are playing less but rebounding more. That is called being more effective. Of these 4 players two have missed a significant number of games so you'd actually expect the minutes per game of the other two to have gone up but that is not the case.

[exodus]

2010 minutes vs 2011 minutes with defensive rebounds per game for our top 4 defensive rebounders

Al Horford 35.1 - 7.0drb to 34.2 - 7.1drb

Josh Smith 35.4 - 6.0drb to 34.1 - 6.9drb

Marvin Williams 30.5 - 3.8drb to 30.0 - 3.8drb

J Johnson 38.0 - 3.7drb to 36.0 - 3.4drb

Total difference in minutes per game 2010 vs 2011 is 4.7 less minutes per game for 2011

Total difference in defensive rebounds per game 2010 vs 2011 is .7 rebounds more per game for 2011.

So our best defensive rebounders are playing less but rebounding more. That is called being more effective. Of these 4 players two have missed a significant number of games so you'd actually expect the minutes per game of the other two to have gone up but that is not the case.

Putting a terrible defensive rebounder in the middle certainly leaves more defensive rebounds for Smith and Horford but isn't going to help team rebounding. The Hawks got fractionally more defensive rebounds i the games Collins didn't play.

Last year Horford and Smith routinely got switched out on guards due to the switching scheme, making it tougher to get defensive rebounding position. That was occuring all game long, not just in 9 minutes a game.

Collins has 45 defensive rebounds total on the season. I am frankly amazed that this is even a discussion.

[Chickenstanley]

Exodus,

I was simply curious why you were allowed to break the rules with many of your posts. Maybe it has something to do with your being a "$ Supporter" --- and this being Dolfans' Dictatorship and NOT a democracy ? Whatever...

As for the previous "argument" that you speak of...... If you don't understand the following concepts, I suggest you ask someone to explain them to you.

They are:

1. You cannot prove a speculation

2. It is child's play to cast doubt on any speculation

3. The vast majority of everything that you (and everyone here) writes about is speculation

4. No statistic(s) you can research and quote changes numberrs 1 thru 3.

It would be easy to deconstruct all of your speculative posts the same way I did during the "last argument". But there would be no reason to do that because *speculation* is the main reason that this forum exists and the reason we all enjoy coming here.

I would only like to ask you to please attempt to tone down the personally insulting tone of your posts (like the examples I mention previously). The posters here are likely decent human beings who do not deserve to be called stupid, have their attention spans or abilities to read called into question (outright or insinuated) and talked down to repeatedly by you. Comments of this nature just do not serve any useful purpose within a post and are not necessary to make your point. Outside of this, your "viewpoints" are generally very well presented -- but are frequently littered with this childish playground-type tone that you tend to use.

Many people here have been through this stage over the years and have long since grown-up and become confident enough in their own intelligence to stop posting in the manner as you are still doing.

CS

[exodus]

Exodus,

I was simply curious why you were allowed to break the rules with many of your posts. Maybe it has something to do with your being a "$ Supporter" --- and this being Dolfans' Dictatorship and NOT a democracy ? Whatever...

As for the previous "argument" that you speak of...... If you don't understand the following concepts, I suggest you ask someone to explain them to you.

They are:

1. You cannot prove a speculation

2. It is child's play to cast doubt on any speculation

3. The vast majority of everything that you (and everyone here) writes about is speculation

4. No statistic(s) you can research and quote changes numberrs 1 thru 3.

It would be easy to deconstruct all of your speculative posts the same way I did during the "last argument". But there would be no reason to do that because *speculation* is the main reason that this forum exists and the reason we all enjoy coming here.

I would only like to ask you to please attempt to tone down the personally insulting tone of your posts (like the examples I mention previously). The posters here are likely decent human beings who do not deserve to be called stupid, have their attention spans or abilities to read called into question (outright or insinuated) and talked down to repeatedly by you. Comments of this nature just do not serve any useful purpose within a post and are not necessary to make your point. Outside of this, your "viewpoints" are generally very well presented -- but are frequently littered with this childish playground-type tone that you tend to use.

Many people here have been through this stage over the years and have long since grown-up and become confident enough in their own intelligence to stop posting in the manner as you are still doing.

CS

As to our previous argument it is not speculation that a 3 game sample size is statistically insignificant. That is a fact.

As to the tone of my posts we have several mods here. You are not one of them. You do not determine what is appropriate and what isn't. The correct procedure when you see an offensive post is to report it to the mods and let them take corrective measures. Everyone else seems to understand this but for some reason you don't.

When you get on my case for personally insulting people while at the same time calling me a "loudmouth/know it all" your aren't scoring many points in the credibility column.

Edited January 9, 2011 by exodus

[Chickenstanley]

If the moderators were willing to do their job, they would have already mentioned this to you.

You were personally insulting people. Yes, that is the manner in which I addressed you. People are going to treat you like you treat them.

A pot does not have to be of a different color to accurately call a kettle black. If I weighed 500 lbs and so did you, would I lose credibility for calling you fat? The entire premise of such logic is silly.

The former debate: Not going there. I'm still dizzy.

CS

[exodus]

If the moderators were willing to do their job, they would have already mentioned this to you.

You were personally insulting people. Yes, that is the manner in which I addressed you. People are going to treat you like you treat them.

A pot does not have to be of a different color to accurately call a kettle black. If I weighed 500 lbs and so did you, would I lose credibility for calling you fat? The entire premise of such logic is silly.

The former debate: Not going there. I'm still dizzy.

CS

So you sit in judgement not only of me, but also the mods. LOL

I have been warned before. The last time was november 2009. Responding to someone who you believe is a rule breaker by breaking the rules yourself is not a sign of the maturity you claim to possess. I am not the one who resorted to namecalling. You are the only one in the thread that did that.

As to our previous argument it is not speculation that missed shots can help a team win games. That is just nonsense. When Smith went 0-6 from 3 vs Boston in game 4 I know for a fact that those 6 three point misses didn't help the team win the game.

[Admin]

Exodus,

I was simply curious why you were allowed to break the rules with many of your posts. Maybe it has something to do with your being a "$ Supporter" --- and this being Dolfans' Dictatorship and NOT a democracy ? Whatever...

First off I think you owe me an apology, as well as the moderators here. I decided to let you back onto the site and you thanked me for giving you a 2nd chance and this is the way that you thank me?

Being a former banned member I'm giving you ONE last chance here before I give you a permanent ban as I do not need to have you as a member if you're going to insult me or the mods here. Scratch that I've had enough of your crap and with this being my "DICTATORSHIP" I feel that you contribute more as a banned member than you do as an active one.

And finally to those participating in this thread knock off the insults and keep the discussion on the topic.

[exodus]

So I am getting a rules lecture from someone who got banned? :laughing5:

LOL @ him acting like I would get preferrential treatment on here given how many heated arguments i have had with Dolfan over the years on different aspects of the team, especially Woody.

[DJlaysitup]

The thing still is...LD said:

"While the big lineup gives Horford room to play his game -- his shooting percentage is 59.2 percent when Collins starts and 54.9 when he doesn't -- and also presents mismatches with Smith at small forward, Collins' play is undoubtedly a factor..."

Granted LD didn't specifically say that Collins' play has improved our defensive rebounding...but it was implied. And even though Zaza didn't start a game at center, he certainly played center a lot while AL was on the court at PF.

Possibly the D woody employed had a small effect - but it's always guys vs guys on the court. The center position is generally the most stationary and requires blocking out. Having AL at center takes away an athletic guy in order for him to try and block out a center. If Collins can do the same job defensively it's an advantage for our defense in general and therefore an advantage for our defensive rebounding.

and the stats are showing this.

Edited January 11, 2011 by DJlaysitup

[exodus]

The thing still is...LD said:

"While the big lineup gives Horford room to play his game -- his shooting percentage is 59.2 percent when Collins starts and 54.9 when he doesn't -- and also presents mismatches with Smith at small forward, Collins' play is undoubtedly a factor..."

Granted LD didn't specifically say that Collins' play has improved our defensive rebounding...but it was implied. And even though Zaza didn't start a game at center, he certainly played center a lot while AL was on the court at PF.

Possibly the D woody employed had a small effect - but it's always guys vs guys on the court. The center position is generally the most stationary and requires blocking out. Having AL at center takes away an athletic guy in order for him to try and block out a center. If Collins can do the same job defensively it's an advantage for our defense in general and therefore an advantage for our defensive rebounding.

and the stats are showing this.

The stats show that in 39 games Collins has 45 defensive rebounds, one more than Jeff Teague.

[lethalweapon3]

OMG, this thread is still alive? Die, thread, die!

~lw3

[Diesel]

One thing that got lost in this messy thread is a good point.

When Smoove plays at the 3, he is able to get back on defense better. So maybe our team isn't as focused on OR as we were last year. As I think about last year, our offensive rebounds were up, but at the same time, we encountered lost of mismatches on defense when we went for the OR and didn't get it. The logical question is does it benefit us to have 1 or 2 more offensive rebounds per game vs. having mismatches on defense all game?

[Admin]

Just to give some clarification to anyone that may be wondering I DID NOT ban Chicken Stanley over this one instance but he has been banned previously and was only re-instated a couple of months ago and swore to me that he'd be on his best behavior and I don't mind the back and forth heated arguments that we all get into on here and will warn when necessary but if you've already got 2.9 strikes against you please don't call me or any of the moderators out and definitely don't imply that some people get away with more simply because they are a Hawksquawk Supporter because that's simply not true at all as I've (and the mods) have warned Supporters on numerous occasions previously.

I hope that clears up any confusion but if not please feel free to PM me and we can discuss this.

[exodus]

One thing that got lost in this messy thread is a good point.

When Smoove plays at the 3, he is able to get back on defense better. So maybe our team isn't as focused on OR as we were last year. As I think about last year, our offensive rebounds were up, but at the same time, we encountered lost of mismatches on defense when we went for the OR and didn't get it. The logical question is does it benefit us to have 1 or 2 more offensive rebounds per game vs. having mismatches on defense all game?

I would argue that Smith's increased perimeter shooting is the reason for his decreased offensive rebounding.

To answer your question though i have no problem giving up 1 or 2 offensive rebounds to have better transition defense. For every offensive rebound that you get there will probably be 2 or 3 that you don't get and in those cases you will be trailing the play in transition.

Side note to Dolfan, where does this "dictatorship" business come from? That seems like a pretty bizarre accusation.

Edited January 11, 2011 by exodus

[Admin]

Side note to Dolfan, where does this "dictatorship" business come from? That seems like a pretty bizarre accusation.

That's what I want to know! There is an owner of the site, not me, who's certainly not a dictator and then I run the site on a day to day basis and then there is a 3 man mod team so if anything we're much more of a Democracy, especially since the mods were chosen by a popular vote!

Back to the topic at hand though I love the big lineup but the sooner we can get an upgrade to Twin the better! I also need to see a lot more of Al matched up against premiere 4's and Smoove matched up with premiere 3's before I can make a decision about which lineup I prefer. I have to admit that I love the idea of having both Marvin and Jamal off the bench along with an improving Teague.

[exodus]

That's what I want to know! There is an owner of the site, not me, who's certainly not a dictator and then I run the site on a day to day basis and then there is a 3 man mod team so if anything we're much more of a Democracy, especially since the mods were chosen by a popular vote!

Back to the topic at hand though I love the big lineup but the sooner we can get an upgrade to Twin the better! I also need to see a lot more of Al matched up against premiere 4's and Smoove matched up with premiere 3's before I can make a decision about which lineup I prefer. I have to admit that I love the idea of having both Marvin and Jamal off the bench along with an improving Teague.

I just realized something. This post..

Just to give some clarification to anyone that may be wondering I DID NOT ban Chicken Stanley over this one instance but he has been banned previously and was only re-instated a couple of months ago and swore to me that he'd be on his best behavior and I don't mind the back and forth heated arguments that we all get into on here and will warn when necessary but if you've already got 2.9 strikes against you please don't call me or any of the moderators out and definitely don't imply that some people get away with more simply because they are a Hawksquawk Supporter because that's simply not true at all as I've (and the mods) have warned Supporters on numerous occasions previously.

might be the longest run-on sentence in HS history. Bravo! :thumbsupsmileyanim:

[DJlaysitup]

One thing I left out from the Collins article at AJC.com is what Collins actually said:

"Especially against teams that have dominant low-post scorers, I know I can go out there and help our team by playing good, solid post defense and making [opposing centers] work," Collins said. "At the bare minimum, I've got six fouls."

Now I will admit that any player will basically parrott what the coach wants him to say, but in this case I think Collins is being honest...he even said "at a bare minimum, I've got six fouls". It opens up the game for our athletic and aggressive forwards. Collins can't jump for spit but that's not his job...he will never be an athletic shot blocking center. But if he sticks his butt into the opposing center's happy place he will prevent that player from effectively jumping too.

...and as far as Collins having little more rebounds than Teague...useless stat...grasping at straws...Teague plays in garbage time...Collins plays at the beginning of games, when it counts. :kickcan:

Edited January 11, 2011 by DJlaysitup

[exodus]

One thing I left out from the Collins article at AJC.com is what Collins actually said:

"Especially against teams that have dominant low-post scorers, I know I can go out there and help our team by playing good, solid post defense and making [opposing centers] work," Collins said. "At the bare minimum, I've got six fouls."

Now I will admit that any player will basically parrott what the coach wants him to say, but in this case I think Collins is being honest...he even said "at a bare minimum, I've got six fouls". It opens up the game for our athletic and aggressive forwards. Collins can't jump for spit but that's not his job...he will never be an athletic shot blocking center. But if he sticks his butt into the opposing center's happy place he will prevent that player from effectively jumping too.

...and as far as Collins having little more rebounds than Teague...useless stat...grasping at straws...Teague plays in garbage time...Collins plays at the beginning of games, when it counts. :kickcan:

Grasping at straws? LOL a starting center only having one more rebound than a backup pg is pathetic.

Collins has 45 defensive rebounds in 39 games.

That is 1.15 per game.

That is a joke. Speaking of playing when it counts where is Collins in the 4th quarter when the game is on the line? On the pine next to Teague.

The Hawks are getting just as many defensive rebounds in the games Collins doesn't play. The Indy game was a perfect example. Horford and Smith combined for 20 rebounds, 15 defensive. The team had 32 defensive rebounds. Does Collins get credit for that too even though he didn't play?

Edited January 11, 2011 by exodus