Woodson = Knicks Next Head Coach?

[Randy]

Woody would be perfect fro their next coach. Go from a team that plays no defense to one that has no offense.

[Wretch]

Despite having one of the youngest and most athletic teams at his disposal, we were never that good on D. In fact, it's arguable that our switching D was an actual negative. Never mind, it's not really arguable.

http://www.nba.com/b...29_woodson.html

As an assistant to Larry Brown in Detroit, Woodson was credited with building the defense that helped the Pistons win the 2004 NBA championship.

...and it's not the press that I'm talking about that's giving the man his due. It's the PLAYERS who actually won the championship. Woodson's defense was his big selling point when we hired him. Always has been. But it was the championship Piston players that had his back - and they would, before every game we played against them, walk over to our bench to shake his hand. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM. There is no amount of bulletin board discussion or statistical analysis that is going to dispute the respect those players give him. The bottom line is that those Pistions won a championship with teamwork and defense. They credit the defense to Mike Woodson.

I can't f***in' stand him and I wanted him gone before BK tried to fire him, but I'm going to give the man his due. I'm not saying that he is a head good coach (he isn't) or that we had a great defense because of him. I'm saying that he is a good defensive coach and he has the resume and respect of championship players to prove it.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Wretch

[AHF]

I know Larry Brown has had a LOT of very good defensive teams with and without Woodson so I can't tell you Woodson was the key in Detroit. It is encouraging for Woodson that the championship team likes and respects him so much, but looking at the numbers doesn't seem to suggest anything too dramatic. The Pistons led the Eastern Conference in fewest points allowed per game the season before Woodson arrived, the season Woodson was there, and the season after Woodson was gone. Their defensive ratings were 4th in the league before Woodson arrived, 2nd in the league the season Woodson was there, and 3rd in the league the season after Woodson was gone. I'm not ready to discount the work he did in Detroit but he clearly was working with a very good foundation of defensive success in Detroit and the team didn't fall off too much once he left. (They remained elite even under Flip Saunders).

I don't think Woodson worked any wonders defensively in Atlanta and that he set our defense up to be exploited in the playoffs. He will have his chance to reform a D'Antoni team for a much bigger defensive improvement than he ever showed in Detroit or Atlanta. As someone who doesn't cheer for the Knicks, I won't be rooting for that but I hope he has the chance to step in as head coach for them over the next year or so.

[Wretch]

I need to say a two things first. A) I have nothing to say about Woodson in Atlanta - other than that he failed. No need to go into that. And B) I disapproved of him here moreso than probably anybody on this board.

I'm still going to give him his credit for Detroit and I'm going to call him a good defensive coach because of it. Those who played for him and covered him seem to agree. Who am I to contest that? I think what people want to do is use his failure here to discount what he accomplished in Detroit. But it's two different teams with two different sets of personnel. If coaches were "automatic" everywhere they went, then guys like Adelman or Larry Brown would never be available. Same with players. Sometimes it's just not the right fit. Mike Woodson was not the right fit HERE.

However, his accomplishments in Detroit and the fact that he is still sought after (not surprisingly in a situation that is dying for defense) is enough for me to give the man his due. If we want to say that they were a very good defensive team before he got there and then downplay the respect he's given - well then we'll have to also accept a couple of things. First, and obviously, we have to discount what he meant to those players and those pundits who flat out give him respect. It's not like a post game interview or a quick shout out - the Pistons came to him to PERSONALLY thank him in front of God and everybody. Not a phone call or a letter. Personally, I'm not going to discount that.

Secondly, saying that Woodson had no effect on those guys is like saying any other highly regarded coach is only successful because of the personnel they have. We can't have it both ways here. We all know that it is ultimately the players that win or lose games. The coach is not on the floor shooting the ball. But it apparently takes something from real coach to get guys to the next level - Doc Rivers, Phil Jackson, Pop, etc. Woodson did something for the championship Pistons. Something that people are still willing to give him his credit for to the day.

[AHF]

Secondly, saying that Woodson had no effect on those guys is like saying any other highly regarded coach is only successful because of the personnel they have. We can't have it both ways here. We all know that it is ultimately the players that win or lose games. The coach is not on the floor shooting the ball. But it apparently takes something from real coach to get guys to the next level - Doc Rivers, Phil Jackson, Pop, etc. Woodson did something for the championship Pistons. Something that people are still willing to give him his credit for to the day.

My point was that Larry Brown was the head coach, is a HOF coach, and has always been a strong defensive coach with or without Woodson as an assistant. The Pistons were an elite defense before, during, and after Woodson was there - that is just a fact. The players have a great deal of respect for Woodson which is great but they were also champions together which is the career highlight for those players. It doesn't surprise me at all that they want to go personally shake the hand of one of the guys who worked with them to get that ring. I am not saying that Woodson can't coach D - only that what I see from his one year in Detroit doesn't convince me of it without further review and what I saw in 6 years in Atlanta makes me question whether he was the key to the Piston's defensive success during their championship run under Larry Brown et al. In fact, it was Larry Brown who went and coached a moderately talented Bobcats team into being an elite defense (top 10 his first two seasons in Charlotte and #1 overall that second year) during the same time Woody was achieving mediocrity with his defenses in Atlanta.

Woodson will have a chance to prove his chops to me in New York because they have the tools to be a decent defense but not the coaching or buy-in from the players. A good defensive coach could change all of that.

[Wretch]

Let's not ignore the fact that Larry Brown picked this guy as well. You can't give Larry all the HoF praise and then not give weight to who he picked (and not just for his championship run in Detroit. Woody has a decent history with Brown).

I'm not in anyway suggesting that Woodson was more instrumental in the Piston's run than Brown. I'm also not suggesting that Brown left the entirety of the defense up to Woodson and had no input. What I'm saying is that it is no secret that Mike Woodson is given credit for the Piston's defense. Championship defense. The only people that doubt the man's ability to coach a team defensively seem to be on this board. Larry Brown, the pundits, the Pistons themselves - they all agree on what some of us simply cannot wrap our minds around.

Is it because we're biased?

Is Woodson overhyped?

Personally, and AGAIN I really disliked his coaching HERE, nobody can tell me that he is a terrible defensive coach. You're not going to convince me those guys are just walking over to shake their former assistant coach's hand. They had plenty of time to do that while they were dousing each other with champagne. They could post it on Facebook, MySpace, whatever...and there were plenty of opportunities to thank Woodson after they won and through the media during their championship summer. They had ample opportunity to personally and publicly thank Mike Woodson before he took our head coaching job. Walking down to our bench before every game, years later, making a spectacle, personally shaking his hand - that was their way of making a statement. I think it's a little more meaningful than, "thanks for being there with us. Good job. Good luck."

I have no argument as to what he did here. In any aspect. I think it's partly his inability to coach this team properly (I'll never forget coaches night in and night out dialing up matchups and us being completely helpless), partly attitudes, and partly the personnel we had. I am glad to see him gone, but I'm going to continue to give him his due. Given the right players, in the past he has shown that he is capable. We'll see what happens in NY.

(...and once more for the record, ya'll PLEASE don't label me a Woody supporter. There were moments where he impressed me and there were moments where he disgusted me. The latter was more often the case and I was calling for his head LONG before most here had anything to say about him. Most people were just upset at BK to see how awful Woody was.)

[MaceCase]

Larry was the chef and Woody the cook.

Simply can't discount that fact because guys hug Woody. Everyone knows he's a players' coach and hell yea that would be a massive contrast from the poor communicators in Carlisle and Flip, micromanaging fiend in Larry, timid Curry and thought he was automatically demanding of respect Kuester. Bibby himself said it when he got here that the Hawks "don't know how good they got it" with Woody because of how laid back he is. He's a likable and charismatic guy to the players but that doesn't make him a good coach, guys love Vinny Del Negro too.

All AHF is pointing out is that he is getting far too much credit for the Detroit defense because that was already a great defensive core and Larry fricking Brown was running the show. It has to be evident that Woody is great at deploying someone else's scheme while being incapable of actually creating his own considering that

LA

Houston

Golden State

Indiana

Toronto

Minnesota

and even Detroit of all places

went with other hires over him before New York picked him up as an assistant to give the pretense that they are actually focusing on defense this season (Donnie Walsh was not involved with the hire either to lend it credibility). I live there, with all the other big name D coaches already locked up to head coaching deals, Woody was what was left. D'Antoni himself wanted Lawrence Frank as his assistant who ironically took the one head coaching job that Woody was "destined" for in Detroit.

It is what it is, one looks at his resume and his accolades can be called into question but at least now he's in a situation where he can either prove us wrong or right on his abilities. Good luck to him.

[AHF]

It has to be evident that Woody is great at deploying someone else's scheme while being incapable of actually creating his own considering that

LA

Houston

Golden State

Indiana

Toronto

Minnesota

and even Detroit of all places

went with other hires over him before New York picked him up as an assistant to give the pretense that they are actually focusing on defense this season (Donnie Walsh was not involved with the hire either to lend it credibility). I live there, with all the other big name D coaches already locked up to head coaching deals, Woody was what was left. D'Antoni himself wanted Lawrence Frank as his assistant who ironically took the one head coaching job that Woody was "destined" for in Detroit.

You are right that GMs clearly don't believe in Woody right now. I'm not going to go as far as saying he can't come up with his own recipe but I think he failed to do that in 6 years of running the show in Atlanta so he certainly hasn't shown himself to be a defensive guru despite his public statements of being all about D while coaching the Hawks.

My point is that 6 years of failing to do anything notable on D in Atlanta trumps one season as an assistant to Larry Brown where the Pistons improved from the 4th rated defense to the 2nd rated defense and then were still the 3rd rated defense when he was gone. There isn't a lot of causation showing Woody to be the key to that team's defensive success.

(As an aside, Minnesota hasn't actually hired someone yet but I read they are getting Rick Adelman. How the heck do we not nab Adelman if he is willing to even coach the T-Wolves?)

Here are some thoughts of Pistons bloggers when he was being considered for the job - notably they weren't crediting him with the championship defense:

Although Woodson has a reputation as a defensive-minded coach, his Atlanta teams never finished better than middle of the pack in defensive rating. They had some pretty talented defensive players, too.

His rotations could be suspect, and at times, he’s been a little slow to adjust.

Are the Pistons overvaluing Woodson’s time in Detroit? If he had been an assistant for any other team during that season, would they still have interest? At this point, as Kuester demonstrated, winning a championship as assistant here doesn’t come close to guaranteeing success as a head coach later.

http://www.pistonpow...s-mike-woodson/

I wish I could be a fly on the wall during this interview, because I'd love to hear how Woodson sells himself. Does he consider himself a defensive coach? Because under his reign, the Hawks ranged from awful to mediocre on defense, never posting a defensive rating better than 12th in the league. They never gave up many points, but that's a superficial stat given Atlanta's traditionally slow pace.

Over at Peachtree Hoops, SBN's Hawks blog, Kris Willis recently discussed Woodson's inability to give the Hawks a defensive identity:

After going 53-29 in 2009-10 under Woodson, the Hawks slipped to 43-38 without him. Funny enough, the Hawks finished 13th in the league in terms of defensive rating both years

http://www.detroitba...econd-interview

Edited September 12, 2011 by AHF

[ShakenBake88]

I hope Woodson gets the Knicks job because they are one of my most hated teams. I wouldn't trust him to do it, but then again it's Knicks management...

BTW AHF, can you please check your private message inbox.

[AHF]

BTW AHF, can you please check your private message inbox.

I sent you a PM on this. I'd be happy to help.