Did Howard just get traded? [Nope]

[capstone21]

I personally just dont see the Hawks getting a CP3 here, I hope Im wrong.

No, once Howard is out of the equation so is Paul. Once DH goes somewhere else we need to change our focus

[AHF]

Problem with those examples......they already played in top markets. Were they going to force their way down the media market rung especially when they didn't have Youtube or new media in general to lessen the market advantages? Add in that they played mostly pre-expansion so there was a greater concentration of talent on fewer teams. Didn't need to orchestrate a super team then because you could get one through natural diffusion.....especially if you were already in a top city.

Chicago wasn't a super market and was run by a guy who was notoriously cheap and Jordan stuck around and built anyway. Jordan competed against 28 other teams at the time he was actually winning championships. How is 29 teams from that era so different than the dynamic today? If Jordan had the attitude of today's stars he would have joined the Knicks and Patrick Ewing, et al. a the end of the 80's when Chicago was finishing behind the Hawks in the bottom half of the East. Either way, the issue to me is not player desires -- it is what makes for a better product as a fan. These season long dramas of players forcing themselves out of their current contracts are cancerous to the league, IMO. Edited July 9, 2012 by AHF

[HawkItus]

Yep. It's got holes wide enough to drive a truck through.

the saying goes "you can't account for taste" No matter what they do with CBA people are controlling the talent pool. Most guys probably don't care to spend the money the Luxury tax is heading towards, but some guy all ways will care to do so. The only way you stop this is with a hard cap and none guaranteed contracts. That ain't happening, because then you give dwight the ability to sit out this year and still force his way like NFL players do. It is a very human exercise here at play. I liken it to the prisoner's dilemma. Orlando could just call Howard's bluff and make him take less money to play for the Nets. This doesn't reward Howard at all because he gets his way, but nothing of benefit came from his acting out. The Nets by waiting to let him finish out his contract would not weaken the system or it's business partners by facilitating Howard's request. Dwight Howard could take the moral high ground by saying it is his right to become a free agent and honor his current contract. He then could choose Brooklyn in next season and do so rightfully with little room for argument. Greed is the problem.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

It's setting a dangerous course, that's for sure, one that has already started with what MIA pulled two years ago. There is nothing that will turn off fans more quickly than a widespread sense that things aren't on the up and up, are simply unfair and that a true competitive imbalance exists. At that point fans become seriously disgusted and begin asking themselves "Well why the hell even bother?", because the system's rigged. And at the ticket prices the NBA charges, I could see fans in droves electing not to attend games any longer and suddenly finding better things to do than pour their money into a system that's clearly broken.

For one, Boston is the one that started the whole "Big 3" term, although they got KG and Allen through trades and not by a few friends that just so happened to all be FA's at the same time. I really hate this trend and attitude in the NBA of players joining together to win championships because they can't do it by themselves. It is a really self-centered attitude... Malone and Payton joined up with teams to win championships too, but they did it at the very end of their careers. Teams like the Bucks, Kings, Hawks, and Cavs will NEVER be competitive in a system that is so top-heavy.

[thefloydian]

Or with Lebron... Or with Deron.... Or with Carmelo... Or with Paul... Or with Bosh...

I don't have a problem with how things work now so much, but I do think if you upped the max contract payable to one player while keeping the salary cap largely the same it would kill two birds with one stone. It would stop people like Jason Richardson and other middling players from making the obscene amounts of money they do and instead shift that money to the elite players that actually deserve it, and it would be easier for smaller market teams to keep their stars.

[thefloydian]

Chicago wasn't a super market and was run by a guy who was notoriously cheap and Jordan stuck around and built anyway. Jordan competed against 28 other teams at the time he was actually winning championships. How is 29 teams from that era so different than the dynamic today? If Jordan had the attitude of today's stars he would have joined the Knicks and Patrick Ewing, et al. a the end of the 80's when Chicago was finishing behind the Hawks in the bottom half of the East. Either way, the issue to me is not player desires -- it is what makes for a better product as a fan. These season long dramas of players forcing themselves out of their current contracts are cancerous to the league, IMO.

Let's not pretend like Jordan "did it himself." He played with some great players. Scottie Pippen is a hall of famer. So is Dennis Rodman. Go look at the teams with Jerry West and Wilt. The Boston Celtics int he 80's had like 4 hall of famers. Magic's teams in the 80's also had a ton of great players. This isn't really a new thing.

[wolvetigers]

Atlanta is the #9 biggest Media Market, so its not like we are garbage, the NBA challenge and dilemma comes from the College Ranks. players don't develop like they use to, so now we have a boat load of Young Kids in the league that are not fully developed skill wise, as a result the few stars that pan out...Lebron, Kobe, Dwight, Carmelo, Durant etc., creates a market where only the teams who dont fear paying the luxury tax win out....So what that means for Atlanta is simple, try to sign Smith to an extension, Horford is here and try to get a decent big man that runs the floor (Robin Lopez)...and Max one of the star players that are available Next Summer.....Unfortunately for teams like OKC if they dont win next year its pretty much over for them as they cant afford to keep Harden, Ibaka and company together....Their lost is our gain...tough state of affairs in the NBA

[MaceCase]

Chicago wasn't a super market and was run by a guy who was notoriously cheap and Jordan stuck around and built anyway. Jordan competed against 28 other teams at the time he was actually winning championships. How is 29 teams from that era so different than the dynamic today? If Jordan had the attitude of today's stars he would have joined the Knicks and Patrick Ewing, et al. a the end of the 80's when Chicago was finishing behind the Hawks in the bottom half of the East. Either way, the issue to me is not player desires -- it is what makes for a better product as a fan. These season long dramas of players forcing themselves out of their current contracts are cancerous to the league, IMO.

Okay, so Jordan. What about the other 2? You are partially proving my point on him in that pre-expansion he was finishing behind the Hawks then post Orlando, Miami, Charlotte, Minnesota, Toronto and Vancouver coming into the league after '89 his teams all of a sudden started marching up the standings. Two words: talent dilution. And oh yea, those previous pre-expansion dynasties falling prey to age and cap.

[AHF]

Let's not pretend like Jordan "did it himself." He played with some great players. Scottie Pippen is a hall of famer. So is Dennis Rodman. Go look at the teams with Jerry West and Wilt. The Boston Celtics int he 80's had like 4 hall of famers. Magic's teams in the 80's also had a ton of great players. This isn't really a new thing.

Jordan didn't do it himself. He did stick through tough times and woefully sub-market pay to build with Scottie and the role players (Ho and Rodman were outstanding role players but they were role players for those teams). If Jordan has started demanding a trade and letting it be known that he and Hakeem were thinking of joining forces in Houston, then he would never have won a championship in Chicago. It would have been drama (the bad kind) and would have undermined the team ala Carmelo, Dwight, etc.

[AHF]

Okay, so Jordan. What about the other 2? You are partially proving my point on him in that pre-expansion he was finishing behind the Hawks then post Orlando, Miami, Charlotte, Minnesota, Toronto and Vancouver coming into the league after '89 his teams all of a sudden started marching up the standings. Two words: talent dilution. And oh yea, those previous pre-expansion dynasties falling prey to age and cap.

I'm not sure how this has anything do with undermining my point. My point was that the NBA's big jump in popularity came when its biggest stars spent their careers with one team and that model would be good for its popularity going forward. Who is the one almost universally loved player in the NBA today? The one young star who is sticking with his team and not trying to force a trade, etc. The NFL benefits from having their marquee players stick with their teams (i.e., the star QBs) and the NBA would do so even more because of the star nature of the league. If the NBA is a league of Durants and Duncans as opposed to a league where the single biggest storyline is the next "Decision" then that is a good thing.

[thefloydian]

Jordan didn't do it himself. He did stick through tough times and woefully sub-market pay to build with Scottie and the role players (Ho and Rodman were outstanding role players but they were role players for those teams). If Jordan has started demanding a trade and letting it be known that he and Hakeem were thinking of joining forces in Houston, then he would never have won a championship in Chicago. It would have been drama (the bad kind) and would have undermined the team ala Carmelo, Dwight, etc.

Didn't Howard get drafted in '04? He's been there for a while and they haven't done anything other than sign overpaid small forwards. And Rodman wasn't anymore of a roleplayer than Bosh or Ray Allen. Edited July 9, 2012 by thefloydian

[AHF]

Didn't Howard get drafted in '04? He's been there for a while and they haven't done anything other than sign overpaid small forwards. And Rodman wasn't anymore of a roleplayer than Bosh or Ray Allen.

Rodman was given away to the Bulls by the Spurs for backup center Will Perdue. Does the fact that this was the best deal the Spurs could get clearly put his value in the NBA in perspective? W.i.l.l...P.e.r.d.u.e Now Rodman was outstanding for the Bulls, but he remains a role player in my mind because there were probably 20 other power forwards you could have added to that team if Rodman was taken away without making a bit of difference in them winning the title. He wasn't a guy who you build around, he was a guy who stepped onto the team in place of Grant and did a great job doing nothing but playing defense and rebounding. What was the difference for the Bulls between having Rodman and having say Dale Davis? They are champions with either of those limited players at PF, IMO.

[thefloydian]

Rodman was given away to the Bulls by the Spurs for backup center Will Perdue. Does the fact that this was the best deal the Spurs could get clearly put his value in the NBA in perspective? W.i.l.l...P.e.r.d.u.e Now Rodman was outstanding for the Bulls, but he remains a role player in my mind because there were probably 20 other power forwards you could have added to that team if Rodman was taken away without making a bit of difference in them winning the title. He wasn't a guy who you build around, he was a guy who stepped onto the team in place of Grant and did a great job doing nothing but playing defense and rebounding. What was the difference for the Bulls between having Rodman and having say Dale Davis? They are champions with either of those limited players at PF, IMO.

Do you think the Heat would rather have Bosh or Chicago-era Dennis Rodman? And how do you respond to the other part of that post? How long was Dwight Howard supposed to stay on the same team with the corpse of Jason Richardson and Hedo Turkoglu?

[AHF]

Do you think the Heat would rather have Bosh or Chicago-era Dennis Rodman?

I think if the Heat tried to trade Bosh today that they would get more than Zaza Pachulia so the market speaks pretty clearly on this one. On your question, I think they would take Bosh. His scoring is important to their floor balance on offense. The Heat already have a black hole at center offensively and if they had one at both PF and C that could really cripple their team. Rodman would be a superior rebounder and a better defender but I don't think that would be enough to allow them to run an offense solely through their 1-3 positions (i.e., limited perimeter shooter + LBJ + Wade + shot adverse PF + do nothing C).

And how do you respond to the other part of that post? How long was Dwight Howard supposed to stay on the same team with the corpse of Jason Richardson and Hedo Turkoglu?

Orlando was run by a GM who was so bad he made BK look like a genius. I wouldn't want to stay anywhere were they gave Otis Smith a job for that many years either. That doesn't make the Dwight Howard saga any better for the NBA. The Dwight sage will have ticked off a lot of fans and made him look like a foolish, selfish and shifting person at the end of the day. Turning Dwight and Lebron from heros into villains isn't my idea of a good strategy for promoting the NBA. Edited July 9, 2012 by AHF

[thefloydian]

I think if the Heat tried to trade Bosh today that they would get more than Zaza Pachulia so the market speaks pretty clearly on this one. On your question, I think they would take Bosh. His scoring is important to their floor balance on offense. The Heat already have a black hole at center offensively and if they had one at both PF and C that could really cripple their team. Rodman would be a superior rebounder and a better defender but I don't think that would be enough to allow them to run an offense solely through their 1-3 positions (i.e., limited perimeter shooter + LBJ + Wade + shot adverse PF + do nothing C). Orlando was run by a GM who was so bad he made BK look like a genius. I wouldn't want to stay anywhere were they gave Otis Smith a job for that many years either. That doesn't make the Dwight Howard saga any better for the NBA. The Dwight sage will have ticked off a lot of fans and made him look like a foolish, selfish and shifting person at the end of the day. Turning Dwight and Lebron from heros into villains isn't my idea of a good strategy for promoting the NBA.

If you think that the Heat would take Bosh over Rodman then we should probably just stop arguing about this because we just disagree. All I will say is that Bosh will never be a hall of famer or even have hall of fame consideration. To the second point, I don't see why the Howard thing is bad for the NBA at all. I don't know where this idea came from that you should ride it out with a team that was, by your own admission, run by a moron. That would just be stupid on his part. Now, I do agree that they should change the salary cap rules to give elite players a larger slice of the pie, and that this would stop some of the big-market super team situations, but this isn't anything new. Championship teams have always had multiple great players. The real problem isn't that these guys are joining forces, it's that they're only willing to join forces in big markets. Edited July 9, 2012 by thefloydian

[AHF]

If you think that the Heat would take Bosh over Rodman then we should probably just stop arguing about this because we just disagree. All I will say is that Bosh will never be a hall of famer or even have hall of fame consideration.

NBA GM's valued Rodman at Will Perdue. That was the best they could get. You realize that is less than what Bosh would get in a trade, right?

To the second point, I don't see why the Howard thing is bad for the NBA at all. I don't know where this idea came from that you should ride it out with a team that was, by your own admission, run by a moron. That would just be stupid on his part. Now, I do agree that they should change the salary cap rules to give elite players a larger slice of the pie, and that this would stop some of the super team situations, but this isn't anything new. Championship teams have always had multiple great players. The real problem isn't that these guys are joining forces, it's that they're only willing to join forces in big markets.

As a fan, I enjoy seeing teams make savvy trades and smart draft picks to put a team together (like the current Celtics or 80's Celtics, for example). I don't like seeing players under contract conspiring to join together on a team and than have that team reap a massive windfall of talent. The way these teams are forming is absolutely something new. IMO, it is something negative for me as a fan. If you take your interpretation of events, however, you end up in the same place. If players in the past were willing to band together in lesser markets but now are only willing to do so in big markets, that is still negative for the league. So we can argue the point, but the punchline seems to be the same.

[thefloydian]

NBA GM's valued Rodman at Will Perdue. That was the best they could get. You realize that is less than what Bosh would get in a trade, right? As a fan, I enjoy seeing teams make savvy trades and smart draft picks to put a team together (like the current Celtics or 80's Celtics, for example). I don't like seeing players under contract conspiring to join together on a team and than have that team reap a massive windfall of talent. The way these teams are forming is absolutely something new. IMO, it is something negative for me as a fan. If you take your interpretation of events, however, you end up in the same place. If players in the past were willing to band together in lesser markets but now are only willing to do so in big markets, that is still negative for the league. So we can argue the point, but the punchline seems to be the same.

I don't see how it's relevant who he was traded for. He averaged 15 boards per game and played good defense. You keep telling me who he was traded for, but I don't believe anyone who wasn't trying to win an argument would say that Bosh's year this year was better than that. I realize when I'm banging my head into a wall though, so I will stop here. Like I said, I don't have a problem with the super teams. There have always been super teams. But I agree with you, the only way to give the smaller markets a chance is to eliminate them via an alteration to the salary cap that allows individual players to be paid more while leaving the overall cap value the same. I don't think there is anyway to keep the super team option available while also giving smaller market teams a chance.

[MaceCase]

I'm not sure how this has anything do with undermining my point. My point was that the NBA's big jump in popularity came when its biggest stars spent their careers with one team and that model would be good for its popularity going forward. Who is the one almost universally loved player in the NBA today? The one young star who is sticking with his team and not trying to force a trade, etc. The NFL benefits from having their marquee players stick with their teams (i.e., the star QBs) and the NBA would do so even more because of the star nature of the league. If the NBA is a league of Durants and Duncans as opposed to a league where the single biggest storyline is the next "Decision" then that is a good thing.

And my point is that due to a variety of reasons such as market, talent concentration and then dilution those guys didn't see the need to start looking for greener pastures. Jordan won his first ring in his 6th season, things were looking up for him from then on with a weaker league due to past dynasties disbanding and talent being spread out over a greater amount of teams. There just wasn't a need for him to go form a dynasty elsewhere just like there wasn't a reason for Magic to leave Kareem, Scott and Worthy or Bird to leave Mchale, Parrish, DJ, Walton etc. Have Jordan get skunked his first 7 years like Lebron did and see if he's still feeling Chicago. Have him get his way and the Scottie Pippen trade not go through like he wanted after being frustrated so long and see if he still has a Chicago legacy. Have Bird not win his in his 2nd season or Magic his 1st and see if they'd be still happy or have legacies with their team, hell Magic almost forced his way out and had his coach that just won a championship with him replaced. Duncan got one his second season too but let's imagine Durant...... So he gets to the Finals in his 4th season, now lets say he gets skunked here on out where they can't quite get to that mountain top again (just like Dwight and Lebron) imagine it's first round, 2nd round outs, Harden and Ibaka fall for the "disease of more" and wish to get paid beyond OKC's capacity, they can't attract free agents and the NBA's nice guy starts now having Skip Bayless and people on realgm start referring to him again as the same names they did during his rookie season. "chucker" "6'10" Jamal Crawford" etc. At this point he has two choices: 1) Ride it out upon which people will call him a fool for wasting his career somewhere that was going nowhere or 2) demand a trade to a team he feels will contend and get chastised for being a diva. There's no winning in that situation and there's certainly no reason to compare these guys to past stars who were successful early in their careers.

[AHF]

Jordan won his first ring in his 6th season, things were looking up for him from then on with a weaker league due to past dynasties disbanding and talent being spread out over a greater amount of teams.

Jordan was a #3 seed in the EC his sixth year (he didn't win a championship that year). Lebron was the #1 seed in the EC the year he left while earning max dollars. But whether Jordan had good reason to leave or not is irrelevant to the issue of what makes for a more marketable product to fans today. Having players colluding to join big market teams is just toxic for the non-big-market fan bases, IMO. It is going to continue to be the case and is bad for the league from my view. For that reason, I hope it is addressed in the next CBA. Edited July 9, 2012 by AHF