This is exactly what I'm talking about

[Peoriabird]

He amassed the majority of his positive plus/minus during runs where he was at SF or at least was sharing a lineup with both Al and Zaza at the same time. Don't believe me, check popcornmachine's gameflows, Dol might still have the link up top.It's okay I'm used to seeing fields chewed up after the goalpost has been moved so many times.LD doesn't start big lineup, he's clueless!LD uses the big lineup, but with Ivan. Idiot!Ivan performs well in the big lineup, so stupid I bet he's never ran that in practice!LD replaces Ivan with Josh, team loses. LD!LD plays Zaza, only 2 rebounds. But +3, big lineup!LD plays Josh, -14 and gets out rebounded by 6'6" SF on pivotal play. Big lineup you dummy!LD sits Teague to start 4th, what a moron!LD puts Teague in the 4th, proceeds to get torched and turn the ball over on reckless drives. LD is clueless!! LD LD LD!It's fine to have a preset scapegoat and all but I enjoy reasonable arguments or at least coherent ones.

He amassed the majority of his positive plus/minus during runs where he was at SF or at least was sharing a lineup with both Al and Zaza at the same time. Don't believe me, check popcornmachine's gameflows, Dol might still have the link up top.It's okay I'm used to seeing fields chewed up after the goalpost has been moved so many times.LD doesn't start big lineup, he's clueless!LD uses the big lineup, but with Ivan. Idiot!Ivan performs well in the big lineup, so stupid I bet he's never ran that in practice!LD replaces Ivan with Josh, team loses. LD!LD plays Zaza, only 2 rebounds. But +3, big lineup!LD plays Josh, -14 and gets out rebounded by 6'6" SF on pivotal play. Big lineup you dummy!LD sits Teague to start 4th, what a moron!LD puts Teague in the 4th, proceeds to get torched and turn the ball over on reckless drives. LD is clueless!! LD LD LD!It's fine to have a preset scapegoat and all but I enjoy reasonable arguments or at least coherent ones.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Peoriabird

[TheNorthCydeRises]

He amassed the majority of his positive plus/minus during runs where he was at SF or at least was sharing a lineup with both Al and Zaza at the same time. Don't believe me, check popcornmachine's gameflows, Dol might still have the link up top.It's okay I'm used to seeing fields chewed up after the goalpost has been moved so many times.LD doesn't start big lineup, he's clueless!LD uses the big lineup, but with Ivan. Idiot!Ivan performs well in the big lineup, so stupid I bet he's never ran that in practice!LD replaces Ivan with Josh, team loses. LD!LD plays Zaza, only 2 rebounds. But +3, big lineup!LD plays Josh, -14 and gets out rebounded by 6'6" SF on pivotal play. Big lineup you dummy!LD sits Teague to start 4th, what a moron!LD puts Teague in the 4th, proceeds to get torched and turn the ball over on reckless drives. LD is clueless!! LD LD LD!It's fine to have a preset scapegoat and all but I enjoy reasonable arguments or at least coherent ones.

Mace, even you have to admit though that when we lose games like this, there is a pattern that usually happens. That's why people say the things that they say.One of the things that became evident in that game last night, was that Zaza was the one that simply didn't have it. He wasn't rebounding on the defensive boards at all, and couldn't make point blank shots. But instead of Drew taking Zaza out at the 9 min mark of the 4th, he takes Ivan out to insert Smith. The lead continues to dwindle, and he takes Zaza and Harris out and puts in Deshawn and Teague.At this point, Drew is doing what he's always done . . . "when in doubt, I'm going to substitute offensive minded players to see if they can outscore the opponent and win us the game."The sad thing about last night's game, was that Cleveland was a top 5 offensive rebounding team even before last night's game, so Drew had to know that's part of what they do. That's probably why Ivan saw time at SF.But when push came to shove, Drew reverts to what he's always done . . . sub offense for defense/rebounding.It's annoying. And that's why people always can point to some baffling sub pattern as to why the Hawks may have lost the game. Edited December 1, 2012 by northcyde

[rusty]

LD shouldn't be a head coach,he is clueless.

[macdaddy]

I think they did play hard for the most part. I give alot of credit to the Cavs. Al and Josh both played hard tonight as evidenced by their numbers. But there's a ton asked of them being undersized and having to rebound the ball almost by themselves while also doing other things. I don't think it's all an energy thing like Drew tries to make it out to be. Al and Josh need help.

Thompson and Varrejo had 15 and 18 rebounds respectively. These aren't huge guys. They are almost exactly the same size as Smoove and Al. The notion that we are seriously undersized on the front line is way overblown. Now at guard it's a different story and of course that makes a difference but Al and Josh have plenty of size to rebound effectively against 95% of the league.

[Jody23]

Thompson and Varrejo had 15 and 18 rebounds respectively. These aren't huge guys. They are almost exactly the same size as Smoove and Al. The notion that we are seriously undersized on the front line is way overblown. Now at guard it's a different story and of course that makes a difference but Al and Josh have plenty of size to rebound effectively against 95% of the league.

When analysts, for years, have pointed out that Josh and Horford are small, the situation certainly is not overblown. If they can rebound effectively against 95% of the league as you say, then why are the Hawks one of the worst rebounding teams in the league? And not just this year either.

[macdaddy]

When analysts, for years, have pointed out that Josh and Horford are small, the situation certainly is not overblown. If they can rebound effectively against 95% of the league as you say, then why are the Hawks one of the worst rebounding teams in the league? And not just this year either.

I didn't say they COULD rebound effectively against 95% of the league. I said they have the size to do it. Saying Horford and Smoove didn't rebound well against the Cavs because they are undersized isn't right. My point is that most of the league is lining up guys with similar size.

[Jody23]

I didn't say they COULD rebound effectively against 95% of the league. I said they have the size to do it. Saying Horford and Smoove didn't rebound well against the Cavs because they are undersized isn't right. My point is that most of the league is lining up guys with similar size.

If they have the size to do it, why hasn't it been done? I'm not saying lack of size is the only issue, but let's not pretend it isn't a significant factor when it clearly is. Edited December 3, 2012 by Jody23

[Admin]

If they have the size to do it, why hasn't it been done? I'm not saying lack of size is the only issue, but let's not pretend it isn't a significant factor when it clearly is.

The size isn't nearly as much of an issue as is the lack of fundamentals. Zaza and Al are pretty good about boxing out but Josh is terrible at it and relies mainly on his athleticism and then the guards through the SF are all average or below average rebounders for their positions.

[Jody23]

The size isn't nearly as much of an issue as is the lack of fundamentals. Zaza and Al are pretty good about boxing out but Josh is terrible at it and relies mainly on his athleticism and then the guards through the SF are all average or below average rebounders for their positions.

I agree Al and ZaZa are good fundamental rebounders and when they play together, the Hawks are not undersized at those spots. A big part of the problem though, as you pointed out, is Josh. Currently he plays most of the minutes at four. Not only is he undersized, he's also not a strong rebounder. That combination puts pressure on the rest of the lineup, especially the five, to compensate. If Ferry builds around him as the PF, the Hawks are going to need a big and dominant center and small forward to compensate. If not, they're doomed to being a weak rebounding team. Edited December 3, 2012 by Jody23

[Admin]

I agree Al and ZaZa are good fundamental rebounders and when they play together, the Hawks are not undersized at those spots. A big part of the problem though, as you pointed out, is Josh. Currently he plays most of the minutes at four. Not only is he undersized, he's also not a strong rebounder. That combination puts pressure on the rest of the lineup, especially the five, to compensate. If Ferry builds around him as the PF, the Hawks are going to need a big and dominant center and small forward to compensate. If not, they're doomed to being a weak rebounding team.

When I see a guy like Kenneth Faried being Josh's size or maybe even smaller and he's among the league best in rebounding then I cannot accept the excuse that Josh is undersized. Certainly not physically anyway. He may be limited mentally in that he thinks he's a guard but there's no way in the world a guy who is 6'9 225+ cannot rebound effectively at the 3 or even the 4 for that matter. Sure I'd rather have a 6'10 250 lb guy there but it's not that size difference that makes Josh ineffective.

I agree that we cannot build around Josh as the PF unless you put a Dwight type of center next to him and that's not happening.

[Admin]

Just checked and Josh is the same weight as Faried and 1" taller! Josh is averaging 3 rebounds less per game while playing 5 more minutes per game as well. And Josh's rebounds are down 2 per game from last year and I can't imagine going from Zaza to Al would be making that much of a difference in his rebounding, which makes me think it's effort with him this year.

[MaceCase]

I agree, getting beat doesn't always mean that you are at some physical disadvantage, it could just be that you got out worked.

[Admin]

I agree, getting beat doesn't always mean that you are at some physical disadvantage, it could just be that you got out worked.

There's been too many "undersized" players in the NBA who have been tremendous rebounders for anyone to be able to use that argument to defend any player on a regular basis. There are exceptions where guys like Dwight and back in the day guys like Yao or Big Z might have a real physical advantage on a player but there aren't many guys like that anymore.

The problem is that too many guys come into the league lacking the real fundamentals of the game and that's especially so for guys like Josh who didn't get great coaching in high school, was never in college, and hasn't had the best coaching in the NBA either. Then there are guys who are just going to outwork you and I think they tend to wear out mentally inferior players throughout a game. I don't think that happened with Gee, but you can definitely see how guys like Asik (19 rebounds) and Varejao (18 rebounds) have impacted games against us this year. Are they more physically gifted than say Roy Hibbert, who only had 7 rebounds against us? I certainly don't think so, but they are much harder workers and more fundamentally sound and that's the type of player who kicks our butt.

You can go back to last year when Greg freaking Steimsma looked like an All-Star against us and it wasn't because of his physical talent or our lack of size either. He just plain outworked our guys. Usually that's just Josh not having proper position and getting outworked, but it also happens to Al and I've seen it happen to Zaza and even Ivan sometimes as well.

[Peoriabird]

The common denominator is Larry Drew...Its obvious that Drew doesn't value rebounding the ball. He is more concerned with getting shooter open and running fast breaks than rebounding. The one thing he forgot is you can't run without the ball!

[macdaddy]

The common denominator is Larry Drew...Its obvious that Drew doesn't value rebounding the ball. He is more concerned with getting shooter open and running fast breaks than rebounding. The one thing he forgot is you can't run without the ball!

Not trying to just start arguments but i just don't believe that Drew doesn't value rebounding. I know you think this because he doesn't start Zaza but to me that's like saying Woodson didn't value defense because he kept playing Bibby and Jamal big minutes. You put your players on the floor that give you the best chance of winning and so far, this season and the last two, its hard to say that LD hasn't done a good job with that. Who here expected a better record than we have now?

[Admin]

The common denominator is Larry Drew...Its obvious that Drew doesn't value rebounding the ball. He is more concerned with getting shooter open and running fast breaks than rebounding. The one thing he forgot is you can't run without the ball!

Larry Drew is not THE common denominator as this was an issue for Josh when Woody was the coach as well. You may be right that he doesn't value rebounding, but outside of Al, Zaza and Ivan (who barely plays) we don't have any players who you could consider to be plus rebounders for their position. We also have the double edged sword of wanting to run and having ultra athletic bigs who run the floor like few NBA bigs can and I think that's part of what hurts our rebounding too is that they're ready to get out and run rather than boxing out and crashing the boards.

[Admin]

Not trying to just start arguments but i just don't believe that Drew doesn't value rebounding. I know you think this because he doesn't start Zaza but to me that's like saying Woodson didn't value defense because he kept playing Bibby and Jamal big minutes. You put your players on the floor that give you the best chance of winning and so far, this season and the last two, its hard to say that LD hasn't done a good job with that. Who here expected a better record than we have now?

Agreed! I wouldn't mind seeing a stretch of games where we try the big lineup out though, just to see how the team performs. But it's hard to argue with the fact that with this ragtag group LD has led them to being the best defensive team in the league, or at least they were the last time I heard.

[Peoriabird]

Not trying to just start arguments but i just don't believe that Drew doesn't value rebounding.

1st of all he hardly talks about it in his press conferences or interviews. He talks more about defense and Shooters. Secondly, the players never talk about it as a potential reason for a loss. Thirdly, His substitutions patterns tell the story! His best defensive rebounder hardly ever plays and you can't tell me that Deshawn Stevenson is that much more effective than Ivan Johnson. His best Offensive rebounder averages under 25 minutes a game and is noticeably absent against big front lines while his worst rebounders get equal or more minutes i.e. Stevenson than him. Someone once mentioned the Net and Reggie Evans getting significant despite obvious skill deficits offensively. Why does Reggie Evan average over 19 minutes per game while averaging only 3 points per game? Would it be because he averages 8.4 rebounds per game?? Edited December 4, 2012 by Peoriabird

[macdaddy]

1st of all he hardly talks about it in his press conferences or interviews. He talks more about defense and Shooters. Secondly, the players never talk about it as a potential reason for a loss. Thirdly, His substitutions patterns tell the story! His best defensive rebounder hardly ever plays and you can't tell me that Deshawn Stevenson is that much more effective than Ivan Johnson. His best Offensive rebounder averages under 25 minutes a game and is noticeably absent against big front lines while his worst rebounders get equal or more minutes i.e. Stevenson than him. Someone once mentioned the Net and Reggie Evans getting significant despite obvious skill deficits offensively. Why does Reggie Evan average over 19 minutes per game while averaging only 3 points per game? Would it be because he averages 8.4 rebounds per game??

I can agree with you that i'd like to see Ivan get more minutes. My feeling is that Ivan, even with his intimidating presence, isn't that great of a defender. I'm not an expert on Evans but I believe he is a very good defender. I do like seeing Z and Ivan on the floor together because they are both so scrappy i think the other team gets rattled.

[Admin]

I can agree with you that i'd like to see Ivan get more minutes. My feeling is that Ivan, even with his intimidating presence, isn't that great of a defender. I'm not an expert on Evans but I believe he is a very good defender. I do like seeing Z and Ivan on the floor together because they are both so scrappy i think the other team gets rattled.

Reggie is a better defender than Ivan, but Ivan is a better offensive player than Reggie. I'd definitely like to see Ivan get more playing time and hopefully that last game against the Cavs proves to LD that he deserves it. But I get the feeling he doesn't play as much because he's generously listed at 6'8 and isn't even an average defender for the PF position.