Eurocamp Day 3

[Guest Walter]

I don't think larger hands makes you a better ball handler.........if anything it hurts your dribbling.Think about dribbling a woman's basketball or kiddy basketball vs. a men's basketball. To me its much easier to handle the larger mens basketball as far as dribbling goes. Its really tough to gage foreign talent.......especially one who has only played in a junior league for teenagers. Look at what is happening to Schröder in workouts. College PGs are eating him alive according to reports. Its much easier to gage foreign talent if they have an elite skill - set. Giannis has an elite physical attribute (length) but no elite skill set yet. He could be another Jonathan Bender or he could be much better. The Durant comparisons need to go though. You could tell Durant was on another level at 18. All that being said........I'm intrigued by Giannis but would have to see him workout vs. American talent to see how he fares vs. that kind of intensity and physicality. Does he shy away like Schröder reportedly has or does he take it to them ?

Ridiculous.Put smaller hands on any center and their ball-handling gets worse. Don't confuse big players with bad ball-handling and big hands with bad ball-handling.Centers most often have big handsCenters are poor ball handlersThus, players with big hands are poor ball-handlersThis is flawed reasoning 099.Ball-handling involves palming, catching, passing. Give a good ball-handler big hands and he is a better one. Just look at rondo and Stockton two GPS with huge hands.W

[Admin]

I'm going to try and find the article that I read a year or so ago where it talked about Russell Westbrook and how he struggled handling the ball the way a normal ball handler would because of his huge hands. It made him have trouble making advanced dribbling moves and caused him to palm the ball far too often and without looking up the measurements I'm guessing that Giannis has even bigger hands than him.

[KB21]

Not trying to sound ignorant, but what's wrong if he grows two inches. As long as he keeps developing as a small forward, I see it as a height advantage not a deterrent. Still think we should stay away from him though (I don't trust the league he's in).

I'm not trying to make a case for or against Giannis at this point, but I do question if he would be looked at differently if the NBA rules allowed American high school kids to still be in the draft and he was an American high school senior?

This is a 19 year old individual who was playing in the A2 division of the Greek League, one step below the league that has Olympiacos and Panathiniakos. Unlike 19 year old high school kids in America, he's not playing against other 18 and 19 year old players. He's playing in a professional league that has players who are age 30+ in this league.

Now, this league is probably to the level of Division 2 basketball overall or some of the mid major Division 1 conferences.

When Dirk Nowitzki came out of DJK Wurzberg in the German league, he was a young guy coming from Germany's 2nd divison basketball league. I'm not trying to compare the players, but the level of competition was similar.

[Admin]

Dirk draft profile from CNN/SI

1st Round (9): MILWAUKEE BUCKS
Traded along with Pat Garrity (19th pick) to DALLAS MAVERICKS for the rights of Robert Traylor (6th pick).

DJK Wurzburg (GERMANY)
Position: Small Forward/Power Forward
Height. 6-10
Weight. 235
High School:
Age: 20

[*]MVP of the Nike Hoop Summitt game in San Antonio in March, scored 33 points [*]Played Second Division in Germany this past season [*]DJK will play in Germany's First Division next season [*]Averaged 28.5 ppg and 9.8 rebounds [*]Shot 56% from the floor and 76% from the line [*]In 1996-97 season averaged 19.4 ppg and 6.4 rebounds [*]Member of the German National Junior Team in 1996 [*]European Junior Select Team in 1996 [*]German Under 22 national team in 1996

Box score from Dirk's Nike Hoops Summit Game where he had 33 points on 50% shooting (6-12) and 14 rebounds plus he was 19-23 at the FT line and 2-3 from downtown.

http://www.usabasketball.com/men/2009/1998HSUMBox.pdf

[Admin]

Kinda hard to compare Giannis vs Dirk even with them playing at the same level but from all I've seen Dirk was far more polished than Giannis coming out, which is why teams were talking about drafting him as high as #2 overall that year and Giannis will be lucky to crack the top 20. From what I see here, Dirk averaged 23 points, 8.5 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 steals in about 35 minutes per game with an EFF of 27.13. From what I see here, Giannis averaged 9.5 points, 5 rebounds, 1.4 assists and 0.7 steals in 22.5 minutes per game. Not sure what his EFF was as they don't list that on that site. So I'm really not sure how these guys can even be talked about in the same paragraph as if they're close to the same level of player. You wanna talk about a Euro player who compared favorably to what Dirk did at the Nike Hook Summit in 1998 then look no further than Livio Jean-Charles.

Stealing the show at the 2013 Nike Hoop Summit, Livio Jean-Charles did more to help himself over the course of the week than any player in attendance, leading to his declaration for the 2013 NBA Draft. The French forward had already generated some buzz among NBA scouts with his consistent play in practice, but exploded for 27 points and 13 rebounds against the USA Junior National Select Team on game day. Both of those totals rank in the top-7 in the 16-year history of the event. Jean-Charles began the week doing the same things that ultimately led to his historic performance in the game; moving well without the ball, running the floor tirelessly, finishing at the rim, and making the most of his athleticism and 7'2 wingspan by playing with great intensity on both ends of the floor. Standing out in practice with his ability to do a lot of the little things NBA scouts look for in a combo forward, Jean-Charles showed promising potential as a roleplayer. Earning a spot in the starting lineup for Roy Rana's World Select Team after sitting out briefly with an injury earlier in the week, Jean-Charles did most of his damage on the offensive end by crashing the glass and as the screen setter on the pick and roll. Finishing the game shooting 10-13 from the field and 7-10 from the line, Jean-Charles played within himself while displaying good touch and patience around the rim. Defensively, Jean-Charles did a terrific job containing dribble penetration and challenging shots around the rim. Not a freak athlete, the 19-year old has good speed, and combined with his length and motor, showed the ability to defend both forward positions. Blocking a couple of dunks over the course of the week and a few on game day, Jean-Charles is a smart defender who could become an even more versatile on that end of the floor as his frame improves. Moving forward, there are three areas of his game that will dictate what kind of player Jean-Charles can be down the road and likely define his NBA position: his physical strength, range on his jumper, and ball-handling ability. Possessing passable size for a power forward and very good length, Jean-Charles has gained some weight in recent years, but at 217 pounds, will need to continue getting stronger to better defend the post at the NBA level. A very reliable midrange shooter, albeit with a very long, unorthodox release, and sound decision-maker, Jean-Charles's ability to handle the ball and make a standstill 3-pointer will determine whether he can become as versatile on the offensive end as he is on the defensive end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=12pRlQPIj8w

A prospect we've covered a extensively during his time at INSEP and playing for the French Junior National Teams in FIBA competition, Jean-Charles certainly showcased his strengths as a prospect with his showing at the Nike Hoop Summit. Able to make the leap to the NBA after this season or a few years down the road according to his representatives, Jean-Charles is in a very flexible situation. Averaging 3.1 points over 14.3 minutes per-game playing for ASVEL in Pro A, a team could opt to draft him and allow him to gain experience playing a bigger role at the club level or draft him and bring him over immediately to more closely steer his development. From DraftExpress.comhttp://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz2W42HyD4V http://www.draftexpress.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JSteAupH8MM

[KB21]

Yet, Jean-Charles isn't being talked about as a top NBA prospect in NBA circles while Giannis is.

Like I said, I'm not comparing the two as players. I'm comparing the level of competition the two players faced.

When I looked at Dirk's stats from his last year with DJK, I figured up that he averaged about 24 P/40, 9 R/40, and 3.3 A/40 with a 49 eFG%.

Giannis in the Greek A2 league averaged 17 P/40, 9 R/40, and 2.5 A/40 with a 54 eFG%.

Again, not comparing the players. Just the situations. Giannis has played well enough in the Greek A2 league that Spanish ACB league team Zaragoza signed him to a four year contract in December.

To use an old baseball drafting term, Giannis is clearly a draft and follow guy. The international community is head over heels about this guy's potential, and I suspect that if he were an American born player in the US right now, most American basketball fans would love him. People have a tendency to fear the unknown, and from our standpoint, Giannis is probably the most unknown player in this draft.

Regardless, the Hawks aren't letting much, if any, information out on this draft process. Chad Ford recently mentions two names in conjunction with the Hawks, both of which are international players. Chad Ford said in one blog that people around the NBA do not feel Giannis Adetokunbo will drop below the Hawks picks, and Chad recently stated that Atlanta and Cleveland have shown the most interest in Sergey Karasev, which makes sense as Danny Ferry was also all over Evan Fournier last year.

Edited June 13, 2013 by KB21

[KB21]

It is interesting to me that the teams that take the most analytical approach to scouting have a strong tendency to draft international guys or make moves for international guys.

Probably the three most advanced analytic teams are San Antonio, Oklahoma City, and Houston, and now that Danny Ferry is in Atlanta, the Hawks are becoming more advanced in their analysis. It remains to be seen whether the Hawks will go the international route, but I do know that Ferry was high on Evan Fournier last year. San Antonio routinely drafts international guys they can develop. OKC traded for Thabo Sefolosha and drafted Serge Ibaka. Houston's Daryl Morey has been scouting the international scene heavily this go around.

[Guest Walter]

Regardless, the Hawks aren't letting much, if any, information out on this draft process. Chad Ford recently mentions two names in conjunction with the Hawks, both of which are international players. Chad Ford said in one blog that people around the NBA do not feel Giannis Adetokunbo will drop below the Hawks picks, and Chad recently stated that Atlanta and Cleveland have shown the most interest in Sergey Karasev, which makes sense as Danny Ferry was also all over Evan Fournier last year.

I would even love giannis and karasev at 17/18 if we could package our 2 2nd rd picks to move up for Whitney, muscala, or jaiteh. I want a big out of this draft but the wings are great prospects and needed also.W

[coachx]

Ridiculous.Put smaller hands on any center and their ball-handling gets worse. Don't confuse big players with bad ball-handling and big hands with bad ball-handling.Centers most often have big handsCenters are poor ball handlersThus, players with big hands are poor ball-handlersThis is flawed reasoning 099.Ball-handling involves palming, catching, passing. Give a good ball-handler big hands and he is a better one. Just look at rondo and Stockton two GPS with huge hands.W

Your refering to catching passes. You seemed to be defending Giannis ability to play SF in that he had good ball handling which I interpreted as the ability to dribble was good enough to play on the perimeter......which it could be. I refer to that slang as having good hands / ability to catch passes. Of course big hands help you catch a ball.

I define ball handling as the ability to control your dibble.........epsecially in the context you used it in as a defense for a tall man to play on the perimeter.

Nothing is flawed here. Just 2 people who define words differently. This is simply semantics and nothing more. No need to get in a tizzy.

If you polled 100 men who play basketball and ask them if its easier to dribble mens ball or a womens ball I think 99% would say its easier to dribble the larger ball.

Edited June 13, 2013 by coachx

[NBASupes]

There is a chance we won't see either one of our picks in 2013.

[Admin]

There is a chance we won't see either one of our picks in 2013.

I guess... if 0 is a percent. No way does a team needing 10 players fill every one of those slots with veterans.

[Guest Walter]

If you polled 100 men who play basketball and ask them if its easier to dribble mens ball or a womens ball I think 99% would say its easier to dribble the larger ball.

Is it easier to dribble a beach ball? It's bigger, right. So all aspects of ball-handling BUT dribbling are helped by larger hands but dribbling is the magical ball-handling exception where larger hands do not help but mysteriously hurt one's ball-handling?!? Are you a flat-earther? Occam's razor says believe the lesser miracle. It is a far lesser miracle to believe hand size affects all aspects of the concept of ball-handling ("the control of the ball, as in basketball or soccer, by skillful dribbling and accurate passing"). I see we need to go back to the basics... http://lawrenceor.blog.com/2012/12/28/teaching-dribbling-to-beginners/ "First, If the ball is too large, control will be difficult." Or ask Bob Cousy... "Hand Size: Bob Cousy said many times his large hands were his greatest advantage in becoming the ball handler he did. More control and a greater ability to pass or spin the ball on the move with one hand. " http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147275 From an si article... "Sweetwater Clifton of the Knicks, who can handle the ball with his enormous hands as if it were the size of a grapefruit," Now was that a ginormous grapefruit, thus dwarfing his hands meaning he had the equivalent of smaller hands? Don't mistake center's with large hands with guards with large hands. All other things being equal, larger hand size improves ballhandling, all aspects of it and not all but the mysterious, magical, irrational dribble. Again...Give Giannis, rondo, Stockton small hands they all handle (including by definition, dribble) the ball worse. How is this difficult to understand W

[Admin]

Walter whether you're right or wrong about this let's not pretend like Giannis has amazing handles or anything even remotely like that. I mean he's got good handles for a guy who's 6'9" but you know what so does Josh Smith. In fact look at that video that KB just posted and tell me that you don't see some young Josh Smith in watching Giannis handle the ball. I'm not comparing them as players, simply by using the eye test and watch when Giannis is dribbling or driving and tell me you don't see the similarities. To me that's nothing to be too excited about. I haven't seen him be a deadly outside shooter and I haven't see him against any type of even remotely good competition so it's hard for me to see how anyone here can really be so deep in his corner backing him up. It's one thing if we're talking about one of the NCAA kids who we can watch lots of tape on against real competition but man there's just nothing to go off of with Giannis to go man we've got to get this kid.

[Guest Walter]

Walter whether you're right or wrong about this let's not pretend like Giannis has amazing handles or anything even remotely like that. I mean he's got good handles for a guy who's 6'9" but you know what so does Josh Smith. In fact look at that video that KB just posted and tell me that you don't see some young Josh Smith in watching Giannis handle the ball. I'm not comparing them as players, simply by using the eye test and watch when Giannis is dribbling or driving and tell me you don't see the similarities. To me that's nothing to be too excited about. I haven't seen him be a deadly outside shooter and I haven't see him against any type of even remotely good competition so it's hard for me to see how anyone here can really be so deep in his corner backing him up. It's one thing if we're talking about one of the NCAA kids who we can watch lots of tape on against real competition but man there's just nothing to go off of with Giannis to go man we've got to get this kid.

I agree somewhat. I see giannis' ball-handling to be a little better than you but it's not all there yet. His physical gifts give him a higher upside, he interviews like he has the needed work ethic (and I would assume Ferry can see through a sham), I believe his ball-handling is certainly ahead of JS at the same age (despite giannis having less exp) particularly dribbling in traffic (JS has always been a good passer), and lastly, if all we get out of another 17 pick is a player on the level of JS we are doing damn well.I guess with his good ball-handling to go with his physical gifts I see the question inverted. There better be a d@mn good reason NOT to take him. iMO, not a theoretical one, but an actual one. It would likely be that scouts and GMs would be on both sides of this but it would appear that more are waking up to him.W

[NBASupes]

On 6/11/2013 at 11:21 PM, NBASupes said:

I like GIannis and said as much in the past. If we draft him, I am not v. it since he is the best SF available at our slot. Not sold on the Russian at all.

 

On 6/11/2013 at 11:30 PM, Admin said:

 

I think you meant Reggie Bullock when you said best SF available at our slot. Giannis is the one with the highest bust / boom potential and no proven experience and isn't like any player on the Spurs team. Bullock is a near clone of Danny Green.

@AHF Dolfan was wildin'! 

[NBASupes]

On 6/10/2013 at 8:49 PM, KB21 said:

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2013-adidas-Eurocamp-Day-Three-4244

 

What I'm going to quote here really has nothing to do with the Eurocamp itself. It is disappointing that some of the higher rated prospects pulled out because of injuries or sickness. Rudy Gobert pulled out because of food poisoning. Lucas Noguiera, after being the most impressive player on the floor on the first day, decided that he had shown enough and left.

 

Here's the highlight of the article:

 

 

I hate to talk about potential, because potential only means that you haven't done anything yet. With that said, this is an 18 year old kid who is 6'9" with room to grow and is very skilled as far as his ability to play defense, his ability to shoot the basketball, and his ability to handle the basketball.

 

On 6/11/2013 at 11:21 PM, NBASupes said:

I like GIannis and said as much in the past. If we draft him, I am not v. it since he is the best SF available at our slot. Not sold on the Russian at all.

@KB21 we were both on it