Trade Horford

[Jody23]

Although I don't see tanking as a smart option for the Hawks, I also don't think that there is a clear cut avenue to becoming a championship team. I think the Hawks will have to make good use of several avenues along with using the new CBA to get where they want to be.

[NBASupes]

KB21 plan would work great if we were the Spurs then we wouldn't have a need to tank.

[Buzzard]

You want championships, but you want to take the least effective route to get a championship. It doesn't make sense. It ignores the data that is out there.

Over the last decade there have been six different NBA Champions. Only the Spurs did it almost exclusively through the draft. I think the days of building exclusively through the draft are over. Even OKC with Durant and Westbrook need some help IMO.

[KB21]

Medical trivia aside the data you provided is fallacious and quite frankly almost nonsensical in its application to this discussion. The only subject of import to this franchise is its ability to garner superstar talent because it has been proven that superstar(s) are needed to win a title. How you get the superstar is simply the process to arrive at the desired outcome: having a superstar(s).

And that is where the flaw in your thinking is. Charlotte has been in the lottery for years now. Where is their superstar talent? Washington? There is a reason these teams pick at the top year after year.

Houston acquired James Harden in a trade of their assets without going into the lottery.

The data on tanking is not fallacious. The data shows that losing teams tend to stay losing teams, and winning teams have a much better chance of becoming championship teams. There is nothing fallacious about the data. Again, it is like trying to say that pravastatin is a better drug than zocor even though zocor is 10x better when it comes to NNT.

[KB21]

Over the last decade there have been six different NBA Champions. Only the Spurs did it almost exclusively through the draft. I think the days of building exclusively through the draft are over. Even OKC with Durant and Westbrook need some help IMO.

I agree with this comment, though it is not relevant to the current discussion on tanking.

The draft should be used as a means of building up young assets that will be attractive in trades that could net you that superstar player the way Houston did with James Harden.

[Buzzard]

I agree with this comment, though it is not relevant to the current discussion on tanking.

The draft should be used as a means of building up young assets that will be attractive in trades that could net you that superstar player the way Houston did with James Harden.

It is relevant. The only champion, out of six, in the last ten years with a big three type draft is the Spurs. The tank argument thinks that it is a easy way to build.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Buzzard

[NBASupes]

And that is where the flaw in your thinking is. Charlotte has been in the lottery for years now. Where is their superstar talent? Washington? There is a reason these teams pick at the top year after year.

Houston acquired James Harden in a trade of their assets without going into the lottery.

The data on tanking is not fallacious. The data shows that losing teams tend to stay losing teams, and winning teams have a much better chance of becoming championship teams. There is nothing fallacious about the data. Again, it is like trying to say that pravastatin is a better drug than zocor even though zocor is 10x better when it comes to NNT.

They tanked wrong. Didn't go into a full tank till recently. They landed MKG in their first full tank since trading Crash. This year they have another pick. Stop saying teams getting lotto picks is tanking. Tanking is getting a top 6 pick and playing bad Basketball. Either you don't have enough talent (Charlotte now) or you have a stud and you put the NDBL around him (T-Mac in ORL and Wade in MIA). Washington went into full tank. Traded their pick(Rubio) for Mike Miller. Then drafted John Wall, Bradley Beal and Jan Vasely. Terrible drafting but they did get to potential Stars in Wall and Beal. Look at Cleveland. Since Bron, they been tanking. They got Tristian Thompson, Kyrie Irving, and Dion Waiters. Good tanking.

To me teams that tank, tank with a plan. NJ got Favors and flip their other pick with was Kanter to get a superstar in Deron Williams. That's good tanking.

Extremely bad tanking is only getting Al Horford and drafting Childress, Marvin, and Shelden.

We need to put the NBDL around Horf and Horf is no Wade or T-Mac. You put the NBDL around Horf, we will suck to the tenth degree.

Getting a late lotto pick like Acie Law isn't tanking. After the top 7, you can't expect to get an impact player. You just hope to get an All Star player at best and everything after that is great.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Leadership

[Guest]

They tanked wrong. Didn't go into a full tank till recently. They landed MKG in their first full tank since trading Crash. This year they have another pick. Stop saying teams getting lotto picks is tanking. Tanking is getting a top 6 pick and playing bad Basketball. Either you don't have enough talent (Charlotte now) or you have a stud and you put the NDBL around him (T-Mac in ORL and Wade in MIA). Washington went into full tank. Traded their pick(Rubio) for Mike Miller. Then drafted John Wall, Bradley Beal and Jan Vasely. Terrible drafting but they did get to potential Stars in Wall and Beal. Look at Cleveland. Since Bron, they been tanking. They got Tristian Thompson, Kyrie Irving, and Dion Waiters. Good tanking.

To me teams that tank, tank with a plan. NJ got Favors and flip their other pick with was Kanter to get a superstar in Deron Williams. That's good tanking.

Extremely bad tanking is only getting Al Horford and drafting Childress, Marvin, and Shelden.

We need to put the NBDL around Horf and Horf is no Wade or T-Mac. You put the NBDL around Horf, we will suck to the tenth degree.

Getting a late lotto pick like Acie Law isn't tanking. After the top 7, you can't expect to get an impact player. You just hope to get an All Star player at best and everything after that is great.

What do you mean, tank wrong? Charlotte had the worse record last year and this year they were one game better than Orlando. Both times they did not WIN the lottery, hence no #1. It's a crap shoot as to who gets the #1 pick.

Edited June 24, 2013 by JayBirdHawk

[Admin]

What do you mean, tank wrong? Charlotte had the worse record last year and this year they were one game better than Orlando. Both times they did not WIN the lottery, hence no #1. It's a crap shoot as to who gets the #1 pick.

In order to win, you have to win. Or something like that LOL

[Sothron]

And that is where the flaw in your thinking is. Charlotte has been in the lottery for years now. Where is their superstar talent? Washington? There is a reason these teams pick at the top year after year.

Houston acquired James Harden in a trade of their assets without going into the lottery.

The data on tanking is not fallacious. The data shows that losing teams tend to stay losing teams, and winning teams have a much better chance of becoming championship teams. There is nothing fallacious about the data. Again, it is like trying to say that pravastatin is a better drug than zocor even though zocor is 10x better when it comes to NNT.

Charlotte makes no efforts to sign superstars or trade for them using that example you gave. They also quite frankly don't draft well. Let's draft a small forward with the second pick in the draft that literally can not even shoot the basketball? That's their problem.

I am not only advocating tanking as a means to land a superstar. As nbasuperstar has correctly stated in other posts you have to know WHEN to tank if you decide to go that route. A supremely weak draft like this year is not a reason to tank. Next year on the other hand will be loaded with potential superstars. THAT is a time to tank.

For your fascination with the Houston model let's be honest: it took them how many years of "eh he's ok but not good" players in drafts to finally get a "superstar" in Harden that his team couldn't afford to pay? And where did that "superstar" take them? One round and out. If Houston doesn't sign Howard they are in a horrible place: too good to tank but nowhere near good enough to be a real contender.

That is precisely the problem that is unique to the NBA: only in the NBA can regular season wins (like your data) mean NOTHING because you can ONLY win titles with superstars in the NBA. In any other team sport you are right, more regular season wins tends to lead to a better chance at winning a title. But not in the NBA. Only regular season wins with a superstar is worth tracking.

[NBASupes]

Some of you guys like KB are making this much harder than it is. Ferry is extremely smart. He will try his hardest to get CP3/D12. If he can't a quick rebuild is a great option.

Scrub/Jenkins/Scrub/Horf/Scrub 6th man: Lou

Bench: Scrubs.

Get a lot of assets like draft picks.

2014

Draft a potential franchise player. Have a lot of picks and built them up or keep them overseas.

2015

Draft a potential franchise player. Get more picks and built them up or keep them overseas.

2016

Resign Horf, our potential franchise player should be an impact player now and make the playoffs.

2017

Contend

2018

Be favorites for the NBA title

Don't tank force:

2013

Teague/Jenkins/Smoove/Horf/Jefferson

Made the playoffs and crash and burn in the 1st round

2014

Try to draft the next Kahwi Leonard and trade Smoove, no one bites on Smoove.

Drafts Semaj Christon. He is a role player backing up Jeff

Made the playoffs to get crushed by the 1 seed.

2015

It's clear, players need to be traded. No one is interested in Smoove or Jefferson but Horf has value. We trade him for some prospects who aren't that good.

Draft: At 15, we draft another role player.

Great for us.

We miss the playoffs barely.

2016

We are a late lottery team with contracts like Jefferson and Smoove on board with some role players who aren't that good. Horf is doing excellent in his new home and even made 1st team all NBA.

Bud gets fired.

Ferry gets fired. ASG sells the team for less than market value to the shegrin of Adam Sliver.

Draft this prospect with potential but he's raw.

2017

We miss the playoffs again.

Smoove and Jefferson are now free agents.

We draft on potential again and land a decent player with potential to sell to the fanbase.

2018

We tanked badly

Top 5 pick the draft

The potential guys didn't develop the way we wanted.

[Guest]

Some of you guys like KB are making this much harder than it is. Ferry is extremely smart. He will try his hardest to get CP3/D12. If he can't a quick rebuild is a great option.

Scrub/Jenkins/Scrub/Horf/Scrub 6th man: Lou

Bench: Scrubs.

Get a lot of assets like draft picks.

2014

Draft a potential franchise player. Have a lot of picks and built them up or keep them overseas.

2015

Draft a potential franchise player. Get more picks and built them up or keep them overseas.

2016

Resign Horf, our potential franchise player should be an impact player now and make the playoffs.

2017

Contend

2018

Be favorites for the NBA title

Don't tank force:

2013

Teague/Jenkins/Smoove/Horf/Jefferson

Made the playoffs and crash and burn in the 1st round

2014

Try to draft the next Kahwi Leonard and trade Smoove, no one bites on Smoove.

Drafts Semaj Christon. He is a role player backing up Jeff

Made the playoffs to get crushed by the 1 seed.

2015

It's clear, players need to be traded. No one is interested in Smoove or Jefferson but Horf has value. We trade him for some prospects who aren't that good.

Draft: At 15, we draft another role player.

Great for us.

We miss the playoffs barely.

2016

We are a late lottery team with contracts like Jefferson and Smoove on board with some role players who aren't that good. Horf is doing excellent in his new home and even made 1st team all NBA.

Bud gets fired.

Ferry gets fired. ASG sells the team for less than market value to the shegrin of Adam Sliver.

Draft this prospect with potential but he's raw.

2017

We miss the playoffs again.

Smoove and Jefferson are now free agents.

We draft on potential again and land a decent player with potential to sell to the fanbase.

2018

We tanked badly

Top 5 pick the draft

The potential guys didn't develop the way we wanted.

If Ferry is as smart as you said he and Bud would have just stayed in San Antonio instead of coming to Atlanta to tank this season in the HOPE of getting the #1 pick next season.

[NBASupes]

Seattle/OKC tank job:

Their 1st tank was in 2007. 2006 wasn't a tank. They just missed the playoffs with Sund and he drafted Saer Sene who was clearly a bust.

2007, they drafted their franchise player Ray Allen for the 5th pick which was Jeff Green and they drafted Kevin Durant with the #2 pick in a very strong draft.

2008, was also a very strong draft. They drafted Russell Westbrook 4th.

2009, a good draft, they drafted James Harden 3rd overall.

So when they tanked, they got KD, Westbrook, Harden, and Green. With their assets, they got Ibaka, Thabo, Collision, and the rights to Eric Bledsoe and Roddy Bousbious. Talk about great drafting.

[NBASupes]

If Ferry is as smart as you said he and Bud would have just stayed in San Antonio instead of coming to Atlanta to tank this season in the HOPE of getting the #1 pick next season.

Bud knew we could go either way. Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt_EI0vBMgI

[Guest]

In the lines of what Dolf said a few posts ago...Allow myself to introduce.....myself.- Austin PowersI'm Richie Cunningham and this is my wife Oprah

[Guest]

Bud knew we could go either way. Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt_EI0vBMgI

And............?

[Buzzard]

Seattle/OKC tank job:

Their 1st tank was in 2007. 2006 wasn't a tank. They just missed the playoffs with Sund and he drafted Saer Sene who was clearly a bust.

2007, they drafted their franchise player Ray Allen for the 5th pick which was Jeff Green and they drafted Kevin Durant with the #2 pick in a very strong draft.

2008, was also a very strong draft. They drafted Russell Westbrook 4th.

2009, a good draft, they drafted James Harden 3rd overall.

So when they tanked, they got KD, Westbrook, Harden, and Green. With their assets, they got Ibaka, Thabo, Collision, and the rights to Eric Bledsoe and Roddy Bousbious. Talk about great drafting.

And you honestly think doing what OKC did is easy? Just for fun lets say, they got the #1 pick in the lottery and drafted Oden that year. Now lets say they won the #2 pick in the following draft ( they had the 2nd worse record but lost in the lottery and dropped down to #4 ) Beasley.

How good are they now? Luck has so much to do with draft picks its not funny. Even in extremely strong drafts you can and almost always do end up with bad picks in the top five.

[Guest Zone]

Bud knew we could go either way. Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt_EI0vBMgI

I'm not surprised the writer said the Hawks might have to rebuild. He layed out the same logical reasoning some of the posters on here are using. It's simply a possible scenario that we might have to partake in.

Either rebuild or continue being playoff fodder. These are the only choices we have.

[NBASupes]

And you honestly think doing what OKC did is easy? Just for fun lets say, they got the #1 pick in the lottery and drafted Oden that year. Now lets say they won the #2 pick in the following draft ( they had the 2nd worse record but lost in the lottery and dropped down to #4 ) Beasley.

How good are they now? Luck has so much to do with draft picks its not funny. Even in extremely strong drafts you can and almost always do end up with bad picks in the top five.

That's just a risk you take. Especially when Oden has had signs of injury every season of Basketball playing days since he was in 6th grade. That means every year since 6th grade Oden has had a some type of injury. That was a red flag. Portland seem to avoid all red flags during these drafts.

[NBASupes]

Honestly, if we suck, get a top 6 pick in an extremely deep draft. We really don't need luck. We only need luck with the lotto balls. We got Al Horford in one extremely deep draft.