Gray Mule Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 (edited) Is Bebe coming to America now? Seems we were holding out until we saw whetherGreg Oden came here. He didn't. That should help clear the way for Bebe.What Hawks didn't get. And old, crippled center who has had numerous operationson his knees and who hasn't played in the NBA for some time. Now, maybe he canand maybe he can't. We'll just have to wait and see.What we've got. A very, very young man who has already been playing center over seasfor some time. He's not through growing yet. He's bean pole thin. He's very talented, aswe know from watching him on the tube in summer league. He really needs experiencein the NBA and it's almost manditory that he put on some weight, hopefully in the muscledepartment. He seems to have a very good IQ and should be very coachable.We still don't really know if he's coming right now. If he does, great! If he doesn't, he's stilla Hawk and will come later. Whatever happend, I gotta believe that we, the Hawks are winnerseither way it goes!GO HAWKS!! Edited August 3, 2013 by Gray Mule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaceRam Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 Is Bebe coming to America now? Seems we were holding out until we saw whetherGreg Oden came here. He didn't. That should help clear the way for Bebe.What Hawks didn't get. And old, crippled center who has had numerous operationson his knees and who hasn't played in the NBA for some time. Now, maybe he canand maybe he can't. We'll just have to wait and see.What we've got. A very, very young man who has already been playing center over seasfor some time. He's not through growing yet. He's bean pole thin. He's very talented, aswe know from watching him on the tube in summer league. He really needs experiencein the NBA and it's almost manditory that he put on some weight, hopefully in the muscledepartment. He seems to have a very good IQ and should be very coachable.We still don't really know if he's coming right now. If he does, great! If he doesn't, he's stilla Hawk and will come later. Whatever happend, I gotta believe that we, the Hawks are winnerseither way it goes!GO HAWKS!!I hope you are right! Now, that any hope of Oden coming to the Hawks is over I would also like to see Nogueira on the Hawks roster this season (actually, due to Oden's health concerns I honestly think I would rather have Nogueira anyway). I would think the best way for Nogueira to get ready for the NBA is to actually play against NBA competition (while working with trainers to help him gain weight and get stronger). I also think Nogueira's athleticism could be a huge asset to the Hawks both offensively and defensively. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin capstone21 Posted August 3, 2013 Admin Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 Bebe is raw and years away from being a contributer...he is better served staying in Europe and honing his skills 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 Despite what others say, I don't think Bebe is "years" away from being productive. I think he may need one year until he gets serious minutes. I'd play him 3-5 minutes a game and send him to nbdl every now and then in his rookie year. 2nd year he can jump to 15-25 minutes depending on his progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHawks89 Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 I thought I saw where he was going to Europe. Cool seeing that pic of him and Mike talking to Matt Ryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gray Mule Posted August 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 Greg Oden would have given us 3-5 minutes per game until he got in shapeand depending on those knees to hold out for that long. Last season, Hawkshad a player who was only able to play every other game.By the time the playoffs roll round, he maybe could go 5 minutes in each half.Bebe should be able to give us those 3-5 minutes every game and slowly increasehis time as the season go along. If this works out, he will be more mature, experiencedand hopefully will have added a few pounds.Don't expect him to be our starting center for a while. He will grow into the position.Those of us yelling for a real center, we have one and, hopefully, before all is saidand done, one of the very best.Meanwhile, we watch him grow and mature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBASupes Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 Bebe is one of the three players I actually want on this team for now and the future with Menace and Horf. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrReality Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 He's and the Menace give us hope. I think by feb he'd be able to contribute in a meaningful way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllestPamfilis Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 (edited) I think Bebe is a lot better than what people give him credit for, he's obviously just extremely raw. I can see Bud and Co. turning him into a defensive stallwart. Sending him back to Europe is not the move IMO. Edited August 4, 2013 by IllestPamfilis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted August 5, 2013 Moderators Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I think Bebe is a lot better than what people give him credit for, he's obviously just extremely raw. I can see Bud and Co. turning him into a defensive stallwart. Sending him back to Europe is not the move IMO. I agree he is better than what people give him credit for and is just extremely raw. That is why I think sending him back to Europe for seasoning is the right move. He can make in impact when we start his rookie contract in Atlanta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatWerkk Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 In some sports putting a youngster's feet to the fire can stunt his growth, maybe even permanently. It happens to starting QBs in football a lot. I don't think basketball is like that. I think due to the nature of positions being so fluid, and the sheer number of playing opportunities one gets in a given season, a young guy on the cusp of being a contributor can only benefit from playing in the NBA. The only issue is how far off that player is, and how many wins/win shares the team is willing to sacrifice while the young guy developers. It's not like we're trying to win a title this year. I'm not at all in the pro-tank crowd but to be honest with some of the signings recently I'm not sure we're even worried about making the playoffs. So if that's the case, I see no harm in putting Bebe on the roster and giving him 5-15 minutes a night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted August 5, 2013 Moderators Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 In some sports putting a youngster's feet to the fire can stunt his growth, maybe even permanently. It happens to starting QBs in football a lot. I don't think basketball is like that. I think due to the nature of positions being so fluid, and the sheer number of playing opportunities one gets in a given season, a young guy on the cusp of being a contributor can only benefit from playing in the NBA. The only issue is how far off that player is, and how many wins/win shares the team is willing to sacrifice while the young guy developers. It's not like we're trying to win a title this year. I'm not at all in the pro-tank crowd but to be honest with some of the signings recently I'm not sure we're even worried about making the playoffs. So if that's the case, I see no harm in putting Bebe on the roster and giving him 5-15 minutes a night. If we aren't near the playoffs, wouldn't be we better letting him develop and then having him on the roster for 4+ years at a time where he can be an impact player at the reduced cost of his rookie deal? I guess I just don't see the appeal of paying him arguably more than he is worth at 5 minutes per game (you could land someone like Ivan for cheaper than that and see more productivity) when you could get him for less than the value of his production when he is more ready to produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatWerkk Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 If we aren't near the playoffs, wouldn't be we better letting him develop and then having him on the roster for 4+ years at a time where he can be an impact player at the reduced cost of his rookie deal? I guess I just don't see the appeal of paying him arguably more than he is worth at 5 minutes per game (you could land someone like Ivan for cheaper than that and see more productivity) when you could get him for less than the value of his production when he is more ready to produce.You assume he can develop equally well regardless of where he's playing. Not sure that's the case.The money thing is a fair point, at least as far as cap numbers go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WakaFlocka Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 If we aren't near the playoffs, wouldn't be we better letting him develop and then having him on the roster for 4+ years at a time where he can be an impact player at the reduced cost of his rookie deal? I guess I just don't see the appeal of paying him arguably more than he is worth at 5 minutes per game (you could land someone like Ivan for cheaper than that and see more productivity) when you could get him for less than the value of his production when he is more ready to produce. Couldn't agree more with what you said, there's no point in starting Nogueira's NBA "clock" if he's only going to see a couple minutes/game or be in the D-League. Also, as much potential as we all see in him on the defensive end, let's not forget that he was getting pushed around with ease during post ups in Summer League games. That's only going to get worse in the NBA until he starts getting stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrypack Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 financially it makes more sense for him to stick in europe for a year. in terms of his development, he probably would be better off in the us, but that is arguable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afro Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Im probably wrong, but hasnt he played a few years in Europe already?He isnt going to get better against NBA talent playing in Spain. I would put him in the D-league for half the season and then after the trade deadline, depending on who we acquire, bring him up. You can do that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatWerkk Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Couldn't agree more with what you said, there's no point in starting Nogueira's NBA "clock" if he's only going to see a couple minutes/game or be in the D-League.What clock? This isn't college. There's no hard limit to the number of years he can play in the league. That concept makes no sense here at all. The sooner he gets worked into the rotation, the sooner he can start getting used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WakaFlocka Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) What clock? This isn't college. There's no hard limit to the number of years he can play in the league. That concept makes no sense here at all. The sooner he gets worked into the rotation, the sooner he can start getting used to it. ...lol I mean "clock" as in his rookie contract, I figured that was a given. Like AHF said, and hence why I said I agreed with him, there's no point in paying Lucas more than a million dollars/year to sit on the Hawks bench or play in the D-League when he can get more PT (and us not have to pay him yet) if he stays in Europe. I know we all want to see this kid succeed with the Hawks ASAP, but I don't think he's ready to do that at the NBA level quite yet. Edited August 6, 2013 by WakaFlocka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted August 6, 2013 Moderators Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 What clock? This isn't college. There's no hard limit to the number of years he can play in the league. That concept makes no sense here at all. The sooner he gets worked into the rotation, the sooner he can start getting used to it. If you follow baseball, this should be a very familiar concept. In baseball, a player's free agent rights vary depending on when he is called up to the big leagues. Teams hold players in the minors like Tampa Bay did with top prospect Wil Myers so they can enjoy the discounted rookie salary rates and RFA for a longer period of time. When the player is brought to the big leagues, the "clock" starts. It is the same concept in the NBA. Players have 4 years of restricted, capped salaries and then a year of RFA once they start playing in the NBA. The "clock" on those rights start when the player starts playing. If we bring him over without any intent to play him real minutes this year we see this pattern: 2013-14: Rookie Salary Year 1 - 5 mpg; 35 DNP-CD and/or NBADL time2014-15: RSY2 2015-16 RSY32016-17 RSY42017-18 RFA If we let him play bigger minutes over in Europe for a year, all of that is delayed by a season. Instead of becoming a RFA in 2017-18, it is 2018-19. The way teams capture the best value from draft picks is getting production that is worth significantly more than their salary. For 2013-14, all indications are that Bebe won't outearn his rookie salary but if he later develops into a useful big man then he will cost much more than $1-2M per year. My expectation is that he will develop significantly just based on his aging and maturation given his young age. On top of that, if we aren't ready to give him regular minutes then I don't think it is a real development advantage to play in the US over playing in Spain and it costs the team about another $1M to pay to buy him out of his contract but if we wait then the buyout is cut in half for next year since he will only be under a contract worth half as much with him European team. So given that we have limited resources, it makes more sense to spend the money we would spend on a buyout on players for this year, to let him play consistent minutes with a consistent role in Europe, and to defer his RFA/UFA by another year. Looking at Jeff Teague as an example, Teague averaged 3.2 mpg and 1.7 apg his rookie season - not much value. If we had the option of leaving him in Europe, he would be earning only $2.5M this season and the team would have another $5-6M to spend this season on other players. That is enough to add an Andrew Bynum type player to the roster without changing our current salary structure. That is the idea of not 'starting the clock' with a draft pick that you think will be a contributor but not for this season. A ton of teams would do this if they had the option to keep players in college for another year or two of seasoning before starting their rookie contracts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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