How can we make this team a contender.

[IllestPamfilis]

SIgn LeBron James next offseason. Money in the bank.

[GABALLA]

The think you fail to realize GABALLA is I'm talking about TRADES. TRADING UP Using Talent. IN that case, it doesn't matter who your fanbase is or what a FA think. IF you have failed to read it, read it now... I can care less about the draft or FAcy except as a means to get players that either want to be here and fit or that we can trade. TRADE... is independent of all these little excuses you keept throwing out there. Trade is only dependent on the amount of talent we have. Believe me, I have thought this out over time. We will not get better by hoping we can pick the right player and then hoping we can develop him before his contract runs out. For us, the draft does not yield superstars. However, trades can.

TRADES...

YES. Finally, you see!!

And how do we get those players who would be worth such a trade? You guessed it, through the draft. We have to draft a superstar or develop drafted talent worthy enough to be traded for a superstar....which goes hand and hand with trading to move up in the DRAFT to DRAFT a superstar :)

But there would have to be a perfect situation for a team to trade away the right to get a potential star player in the DRAFT for a collection on quality players. When was the last time that happen?

[sturt]

The premise of this thread would seem to be "make this team a contender" for this season.

I don't buy the premise. We cannot do anything at this point for 2013-14.

If we do somehow end up contending, it will be a matter of Bud's hopes and prayers (per his recent quote) being answered, ie, that we proved to be better than the sum of our parts.

There is no trade that we can make that will give us 2013-14 contender status. And there is no FA left on the market who is even likely to be a regular rotation contributor, let alone a starter who vaults us into contention.

Our most realistic hope is that DF can make this team a contender for 2015-16... vis-a-vis, by developing this and last season's draft picks, and using the rest of the roster to acquire draft picks.

Edited August 7, 2013 by sturt

[AHF]

And how do we get those players who would be worth such a trade? You guessed it, through the draft. We have to draft a superstar or develop drafted talent worthy enough to be traded for a superstar....which goes hand and hand with trading to move up in the DRAFT to DRAFT a superstar

But there would have to be a perfect situation for a team to trade away the right to get a potential star player in the DRAFT for a collection on quality players. When was the last time that happen?

I'm not seeing it either. We have to count on a moment on monumental stupidity. That is how Cleveland got Kyrie Irving but I'd rather not have to rely on a team doing something stupid against its own self interest.

[kerrypack]

Once again we are not Boston, not Cleveland, not Houston. We don't have the fan base nor the status around the league that would attract quality veterans. This has been proven time and time again. Where does it stop? The only way this stops is if we do the correct things to change it. We are building a culture of winning but its not going to happen over night. So please stop trying to compare us to other teams and other cities. If we keep doing that we will stay failures and before you know it Seattle will be back in the NBA. I am confident that ferry and the ownership after years of trial and error here in Atlanta knows these FACTS and understand we need to draft, develops, trade, all smartly. And the past two years have only proved that further too me imo

"not cleveland"?? I am in Cleveland all the time. I was out running and ran by baron davis downtown. he was walking along and nobody had a clue who he was. also a much smaller market than atl. we win and people will come. in 10 years (lets hope) atlanta can build an identity as a city- it is still in flux.

[GABALLA]

"not cleveland"?? I am in Cleveland all the time. I was out running and ran by baron davis downtown. he was walking along and nobody had a clue who he was. also a much smaller market than atl. we win and people will come. in 10 years (lets hope) atlanta can build an identity as a city- it is still in flux.

Hasn't that been the point of all my post? We have our own identity and problems. We can't look at another city and team and try to use their methods for success and try to apply it here. We have our own unique problems that can only be solved by identifying them first then deciding on the best solutions to the problem. While I do believe the San Antonio method best suits us, we have to keep in mind that we have to not only change the team's culture but the fan and league perceptions as well.

[WakaFlocka]

When asset collecting, you get players that you intend on trading for better players or different situations. Bud is a PNR coach. Lin is a PNR PG. I can definitely see Ferry giving Bud that PG.... and using Teague as a trade piece. Again, what good is capspace if you can't bring nobody in? I thought you would have learned that this offseason. Capspace is only good for overpaying people to come. However, trading works most of the time. It takes talent to get talent.

...lol you're just making blanket statements and not addressing anything I just said. I don't care what Lin and Asik are or how they potentially fit this team, their contracts are not worth taking on. Plus neither of them are as talented as Al Horford. Period.

[kerrypack]

Hasn't that been the point of all my post? We have our own identity and problems. We can't look at another city and team and try to use their methods for success and try to apply it here. We have our own unique problems that can only be solved by identifying them first then deciding on the best solutions to the problem. While I do believe the San Antonio method best suits us, we have to keep in mind that we have to not only change the team's culture but the fan and league perceptions as well.

I thought you were saying we should aspire to be cleveland. holy gramoley, we don't want that.

[Diesel]

And how do we get those players who would be worth such a trade? You guessed it, through the draft. We have to draft a superstar or develop drafted talent worthy enough to be traded for a superstar....which goes hand and hand with trading to move up in the DRAFT to DRAFT a superstar

But there would have to be a perfect situation for a team to trade away the right to get a potential star player in the DRAFT for a collection on quality players. When was the last time that happen?

First. You have to be willing to do "the unthinkable". You said that "we're not Boston". But all Boston did was send a 1st rounder, Wally Z and some other players to Seattle for Ray Allen... then Sent Al Jefferson and Compensation for KG. For some that was unthinkable because they were giving up youth and draft picks for old, good players who had never won anything. However, the plan there was that they were getting out of the developing talent business. Had they not made those trades, they would be where we have been this whole time. Calling Al Jefferson untouchable and draft picks untradable and hoping on their development.

Calling players untouchable, picks untradable and hoping for development is what losing franchises do.

No doubt, I will hear yet another, we're not Boston. But my response is What did Boston do that we can't do?

[*]They started with a blueprint of what they wanted for their team.

[*]They surveyed the possibilities.

[*]They converted potential into right now talent through trade.

We can do those things. Because they are not based on reputation or fan following.

[Diesel]

The premise of this thread would seem to be "make this team a contender" for this season.

I don't buy the premise. We cannot do anything at this point for 2013-14.

If we do somehow end up contending, it will be a matter of Bud's hopes and prayers (per his recent quote) being answered, ie, that we proved to be better than the sum of our parts.

There is no trade that we can make that will give us 2013-14 contender status. And there is no FA left on the market who is even likely to be a regular rotation contributor, let alone a starter who vaults us into contention.

Our most realistic hope is that DF can make this team a contender for 2015-16... vis-a-vis, by developing this and last season's draft picks, and using the rest of the roster to acquire draft picks.

I won't be so pessimistic. Ferry's group has to be looking over the landscape and seeking opportunity. First off, nobody is going to just give us Lebron James or Dwight Howard for Louis Williams. I'm sorry but that won't happen and you're totally correct. However, there are various players in various situations that put us in a much better place.

I'm not a GM, but if I were on Ferry's team, I'm looking at Asik all day. He's better than most Centers. He's a real legit 7 footer. He's a good defender at the basket. For all Houston's talk about not trading him, he has asked for a trade, he has a kicker in his contract starting next year, and it's likely that he and D12 won't work well together. For us, this is an opportunity waiting to happen. We can send Millsap to Houston midseason and we have converted one of our High Post PFs into a Low post defender/Rebounder. It benefits Houston too.

Another place to look is Rajon Rondo. Boston is starting over and in tank mode. Rondo is not going to be happy with a college coach and a team full of young players. Boston will probably move him before the end of the season. I would see what I could give for Boston to send him to us.

And the end of the day, if by midseason, we have turned Teague, Millsap, Horf into Rondo, Horf, and Asik, I think we have gotten better AND are definitely a contender. Miami couldn't beat us if we had Rondo Horf, and Asik with a wing scorer.

[Diesel]

Hasn't that been the point of all my post? We have our own identity and problems. We can't look at another city and team and try to use their methods for success and try to apply it here. We have our own unique problems that can only be solved by identifying them first then deciding on the best solutions to the problem. While I do believe the San Antonio method best suits us, we have to keep in mind that we have to not only change the team's culture but the fan and league perceptions as well.

What you miss is that our problems will not be solved by a draft pick. If that were so, Josh, Marvin, Horf, Teague, or JChillz would have solved it. Our problems will be solved with continuous dedication to winning. You saw this back with our playoff series with Boston. When we started winning Home games, you couldn't keep Hawks fans away from "the Highlight factory". That's the only thing that will change the balance... seeing a plan and seeing it work. The problem in Atlanta is that the media is against the Hawks. One Newspaper that is ultra critical about everything the Hawks do. A few radio outlets that are downing the Hawks' efforts everywhere you look. There are no homers in Atlanta media. We have dumbass Beat writers who are just now getting around to writing about the coaching change in Atlanta. The only thing that can save that is Winning consistently and doing so with a plan. That's how the Spurs endeared themselves to the city. That's why the Grizz are so loved now.

We've seen draft picks and we've seen lottery picks and we've never seen a conference finals. All that time,we never saw a plan.

[Diesel]

...lol you're just making blanket statements and not addressing anything I just said. I don't care what Lin and Asik are or how they potentially fit this team, their contracts are not worth taking on. Plus neither of them are as talented as Al Horford. Period.

You say their contracts are not worth taking on. I ask... What is our FA goal that's keeping us from grabbing two players that fit what we are trying to do so well?

Flocka, you make statements about the need for capspace then you don't tell me what we're spending the capspace on... because ultimately, you don't know. That signifies NO PLAN... Then you question the plan I brought fourth. I would rather trade Millsap for Asik, don't get me wrong.. But my condition is.. if Millsap is outplaying Horf... I would definitely consider Horf for Asik and Lin. In this case, outplaying is measurable to the coaching style. SAP has been an excellent PNR player. We assume that HOrf is as well. However, if Horf struggles at PNR, why should we keep him around? Because he has 2 allstar appearances as a fill in in a weak east? Need I remind you that Horf was hurt most of one year and Zaza replaced him and we didn't miss HOrf.

If Bud brings in a PNR and Horf isn't better than Sap, Horf for Asik and Lin not only should be considered, it's really the smartest move we can make.

[WakaFlocka]

You say their contracts are not worth taking on. I ask... What is our FA goal that's keeping us from grabbing two players that fit what we are trying to do so well?

Flocka, you make statements about the need for capspace then you don't tell me what we're spending the capspace on... because ultimately, you don't know. That signifies NO PLAN... Then you question the plan I brought fourth. I would rather trade Millsap for Asik, don't get me wrong.. But my condition is.. if Millsap is outplaying Horf... I would definitely consider Horf for Asik and Lin. In this case, outplaying is measurable to the coaching style. SAP has been an excellent PNR player. We assume that HOrf is as well. However, if Horf struggles at PNR, why should we keep him around? Because he has 2 allstar appearances as a fill in in a weak east? Need I remind you that Horf was hurt most of one year and Zaza replaced him and we didn't miss HOrf.

If Bud brings in a PNR and Horf isn't better than Sap, Horf for Asik and Lin not only should be considered, it's really the smartest move we can make.

Of course I don't know what the Hawks would/will do with cap-space, I'm not in their front office. It's not my job to have a plan, I'm just a fan. What a ridiculous thing to say.

You're acting like we've never seen Al in a PNR or PNP situation... He and Josh used to run the PNR quite often in the high post. Al also excelled in the PNP when he'd get the ball dished back to him for that midrange jumper.

I'm questioning your "plan" because it's terrible and unrealistic. Again, would you really want to see the Hawks pay Lin and Asik a combined $29+m next year? Those two alone would take up roughly half of the salary cap and they're NOT worth it. The Bulls and Knicks seem to agree.

Ferry's plan is clearly to find and develop talent while staying flexible enough to pull off trades. I have no problem trading talent to receive talent, but I absolutely have a problem trading the Hawks' best player and leader for two overpaid dudes who, clearly, not many other teams wanted just one offseason ago.

As far as not missing Al when he injured his shoulder, that's absurd. That's like saying the Bulls didn't miss Rose this past season because Nate Robinson played so well and the team still made the playoffs.

Edited August 8, 2013 by WakaFlocka

[AHF]

With the KG and Allen trades, remember that they involved lottery talent.

KG was traded by Minny for a future #6 pick (Johny Flynn); a #13 lottery pick on his rookie deal to be paid only $2.5M the next season (Telfair); a #15 near-lottery pick 6'10'' beast of a PF/C in Al Jefferson who was to be paid only $2.5M the next season; a #18 pick with two years left on his rookie deal (Green); and a future #28 pick (Ellington) along with some non-first round/veteran filler in Gomes and Ratliff.

KG got Ray Allen by trading the #5 pick in the draft (Jeff Green) for him along with filler.

When we have lottery assets, I will be able to visualize those types of deals. We don't have any rookie contract lottery assets or picks that are foreseeably lottery assets. So if a team like Minnesota looks to move Kevin Love, I expect they will ship him to a team with lottery assets rather than a team like Atlanta where they would take $.70 on the dollar for an established vet. Al Horford is the exception to this. He is good enough and his contract is good enough that I can see a team moving a stud for him.

[Diesel]

Of course I don't know what the Hawks would/will do with cap-space, I'm not in their front office. It's not my job to have a plan, I'm just a fan. What a ridiculous thing to say.

You're acting like we've never seen Al in a PNR or PNP situation... He and Josh used to run the PNR quite often in the high post. Al also excelled in the PNP when he'd get the ball dished back to him for that midrange jumper.

I'm questioning your "plan" because it's terrible and unrealistic. Again, would you really want to see the Hawks pay Lin and Asik a combined $29+m next year? Those two alone would take up roughly half of the salary cap and they're NOT worth it. The Bulls and Knicks seem to agree.

Ferry's plan is clearly to find and develop talent while staying flexible enough to pull off trades. I have no problem trading talent to receive talent, but I absolutely have a problem trading the Hawks' best player and leader for two overpaid dudes who, clearly, not many other teams wanted just one offseason ago.

As far as not missing Al when he injured his shoulder, that's absurd. That's like saying the Bulls didn't miss Rose this past season because Nate Robinson played so well and the team still made the playoffs.

The question is not can AL run the pick and roll, it's is he better at it than Sap. Secondly, you need a T-shirt made for you.

It should say...

I had 45 Million dollars to spend and all I got was Millsap, DMC, Teague, Korver, and some crummy Europlayers. Thanks D12.

Because obviously, as a fan, it hasn't kicked in how USELESS (toward the bottom line) this capspace is in Atlanta.

With Capspace, it's possible for us to get more midlevel talent or overpay for some uppermidlevel talent. HOwever, we're not getting star or superstar talent with this great capspace. This is the same song I song at the beginning of FAcy. Check it out. Some I'm here to give you a reality check that "IT DON'T MATTER WHAT YOUR FREE AGENT TARGET Is..." We shouldn't pass up trades that make us better (skillset wise) because it may cost us too much in future capspace.

Now, here's your quote to remember.

IF we fail to trade for talent, guarantee that we overpay for Loul Deng.

[Diesel]

With the KG and Allen trades, remember that they involved lottery talent.

KG was traded by Minny for a future #6 pick (Johny Flynn); a #13 lottery pick on his rookie deal to be paid only $2.5M the next season (Telfair); a #15 near-lottery pick 6'10'' beast of a PF/C in Al Jefferson who was to be paid only $2.5M the next season; a #18 pick with two years left on his rookie deal (Green); and a future #28 pick (Ellington) along with some non-first round/veteran filler in Gomes and Ratliff.

KG got Ray Allen by trading the #5 pick in the draft (Jeff Green) for him along with filler.

When we have lottery assets, I will be able to visualize those types of deals. We don't have any rookie contract lottery assets or picks that are foreseeably lottery assets. So if a team like Minnesota looks to move Kevin Love, I expect they will ship him to a team with lottery assets rather than a team like Atlanta where they would take $.70 on the dollar for an established vet. Al Horford is the exception to this. He is good enough and his contract is good enough that I can see a team moving a stud for him.

That was their asking price. I think that #1.. we don't have stars of that calibre that will be available in the future. #2. With the cap and contract time the way that it is, the asking price on several of these stars that are available should be lower than they were for Ray and KG.

Here's the thing...I already pointed out a few people. A guy like Granger. Indy is set with talent, they are a win now team. They are not looking for a host of future picks but they will probably take one and some player compensation for Granger. Just for example. '

[WakaFlocka]

The question is not can AL run the pick and roll, it's is he better at it than Sap. Secondly, you need a T-shirt made for you.

It should say...

I had 45 Million dollars to spend and all I got was Millsap, DMC, Teague, Korver, and some crummy Europlayers. Thanks D12.

Because obviously, as a fan, it hasn't kicked in how USELESS (toward the bottom line) this capspace is in Atlanta.

With Capspace, it's possible for us to get more midlevel talent or overpay for some uppermidlevel talent. HOwever, we're not getting star or superstar talent with this great capspace. This is the same song I song at the beginning of FAcy. Check it out. Some I'm here to give you a reality check that "IT DON'T MATTER WHAT YOUR FREE AGENT TARGET Is..." We shouldn't pass up trades that make us better (skillset wise) because it may cost us too much in future capspace.

Now, here's your quote to remember.

IF we fail to trade for talent, guarantee that we overpay for Loul Deng.

Why overpay for Lin and Asik then?

[Diesel]

 

Why overpay for Lin and Asik then?

 

Uhm... First it's not an overpay if Horf is not meeting us where we need him to be. 2ndly, it's very possible that Asik by himself is better than Horf. 3rdly, both guys bring us exactly what we need in a PNR offense.

 

Back to my first point. This is only true if Millsap is better than Horf in the PNR offense. At which point, Horf becomes expendable. IF Horf holds his own in the PNR, this trade doesn't go up for discussion and we find ways to sweeten the pot for a Millsap for Asik trade.  Maybe throw in a couple of 2nd rounders.

 

Edited August 9, 2013 by Diesel

[Diesel]

That's just one part of the equation. The other part of the equation is Lin. He adds to our team a PNR specialist which means that we then have other players who become tradable. Talent begetting talent.

[AHF]

That was their asking price. I think that #1.. we don't have stars of that calibre that will be available in the future. #2. With the cap and contract time the way that it is, the asking price on several of these stars that are available should be lower than they were for Ray and KG.

Here's the thing...I already pointed out a few people. A guy like Granger. Indy is set with talent, they are a win now team. They are not looking for a host of future picks but they will probably take one and some player compensation for Granger. Just for example. '

Of course Granger won't command as much as Allen and Garnett did. He isn't nearly as good as they were at the time they were traded and he is a major health risk. I'm not saying that he isn't someone to think about gambling on (and he is a big gamble if you are plunking down significant money or assets for him), but he is nowhere close to a top 10 MVP guy (like Garnett was the season prior to his trade) or even a 30 year old who made 6 of 7 All-Star teams the prior seven years with 4 of 5 more All-Star appearances ahead of him like Allen.

Granger is someone who missed basically an entire season and last made an All-Star team 4 years ago for the only All-Star appearance of his career.