Our draft picks - 2004 thru 2007

[AHF]

Other then draft our way will be through trade... Finding a guy ready to take his game to the next level in the right situation also helps. Harden is a great example...Houston became relevant again and suddenly other top names were interested in signing there.

And to do that you need.....

drum roll please.......

lottery picks.

[NBASupes]

Other then draft our way will be through trade... Finding a guy ready to take his game to the next level in the right situation also helps. Harden is a great example...Houston became relevant again and suddenly other top names were interested in signing there.

This is a problem, outside of Horf and Dennis and maybe Bebe, who the hell is worth shit on this roster?

Teague isn't worth as much as we want.

Millsap is a victim of his position being deep. We can get Asik for him but that's not a deal Atlanta wants to do due to Asik salary. We couldn't even get Affalo for him.

Korver? Maybe a 1st rounder but what good does that do us, still a lot more than when got him for nothing. Literally nothing.

DMC, we would be lucky to get a high 2nd.

Lou? LOLZ

Antić might get us a late 1st. Might. He has some value.

Even with that said, none of them can get us a top tier player. None of them can get us that at all.

Edited March 18, 2014 by nbasupes40retired

[Plainview1981]

#2 pick - 2005 ---- Marvin Williams

#3 pick - 2007 ---- Al Horford

#5 pick 2007 ---- Sheldon Williams

#6 pick - 2004 --- Josh Childress

# 11 pick - 2007 - Acie Law

#17 pick - 2004 - Josh Smith

(Hawks had no pick in 2008)

This was long ago enough to really see how our draft picks have turned out.

We still have only 1, AH, and he's out with injury.

Hasn't our drafting been great! And some want to throw away everything

for an opportunity to do this again!

They were extremely close to landing Paul and others... If they had drafted a PG like most thought they should have done, things would be different.

How close have the Hawks come to landing a superstar in FA or through a trade?

Answer that one.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Hotlanta1981

[NBASupes]

I really hate Danny Ferry. His Paul Millsap and Jeff Teague signings irks the shit out of me everyday. We could have had a lot of caproom, a potential top 5 pick, and Al Horford for 2015. We would have been built to contend and even dominate. Now we are stuck in the middle which is even worse than those Lenny teams and Woody teams.

[supermariowest]

Let's use this as a criteria. Has there been someone who was First or Second team All-NBA who signed with the Hawks or even seriously talked with them? I would normally put some limits on this like (in the last 20 years or that was 1st/2nd All-NBA in the prior 3 years) but let's just say ever in the 40 year history in Atlanta and simply note that the player has to have already been 1st or 2nd team All-NBA and still be in contention to be a top 10 player.

Let's try to put a list together of everyone who has done this. All who Atlanta has signed and all who they have seriously flirted with but failed to sign.

The only one who comes to my mind by virtue of this very generous definition of a superstar is a washing up Moses Malone who Atlanta signed at the very end of his All-Star relevance and who was never even 3rd team All-NBA with the Hawks. (He was tied for 13th in MVP voting one year in Atlanta with Mark Eaton and Larry Nance so I'll give him being in 'contention' for top 10 even if he clearly wasn't top 10.)

Trying to establish serious interest on the GM side might be hard to do.

My point is that too many posters assume that future free agency outcomes are dependent on past free agency outcomes. With no data to back this up, my opinion is that future free agency outcomes and past free agency outcomes are indepedent (with the caveat that a star player might be more likely to re-sign with a team than to sign elsewhere). Like you mentioned, signing a top talent in free agency at some point in the future might take some cap maneuvering. I can't deny this but it doesn't make signing a top talent impossible.

Might tanking be a better option for the team? As the past few months on HS would illustrate, this is up for debate. But some posters (not talking about you) need to get over the fact that we aren't tanking this year and we probably won't tank while Horford is on the squad. Getting Coach Bud some playoff experience would be a good thing and we should be able to find a solid player around pick 15.

[Guest]

Let's use this as a criteria. Has there been someone who was First or Second team All-NBA who signed with the Hawks or even seriously talked with them? I would normally put some limits on this like (in the last 20 years or that was 1st/2nd All-NBA in the prior 3 years) but let's just say ever in the 40 year history in Atlanta and simply note that the player has to have already been 1st or 2nd team All-NBA and still be in contention to be a top 10 player. Let's try to put a list together of everyone who has done this. All who Atlanta has signed and all who they have seriously flirted with but failed to sign. The only one who comes to my mind by virtue of this very generous definition of a superstar is a washing up Moses Malone who Atlanta signed at the very end of his All-Star relevance and who was never even 3rd team All-NBA with the Hawks. (He was tied for 13th in MVP voting one year in Atlanta with Mark Eaton and Larry Nance so I'll give him being in 'contention' for top 10 even if he clearly wasn't top 10.)

Use your criteria and recognize that those kinds of players never hit free agency. So of course that will show that Atlanta does not attract free agents. But that criteria would say that no city attracts free agents with the rare exceptions of Florida and LA.Is lack of free agency success unique to Atlanta?

[ViperXX79]

we should be able to find a solid player around pick 15.

Yup lets get more "solid" players to keep us in the middle of the pack. For God's sake can we get off the treadmill and just go somewhere? Forward or backward, either would be welcomed. Sometimes you have to take a step back to move forward but this team(and some fans apparently) just seem completely fine with just being one of the 16 teams that makes the playoffs like that is somehow a big deal. At least a bad year gives you hope that you land a great talent and can start building an actual future. What exactly does this team get by staying this mediocre course? Another "solid" player? Great...

[ViperXX79]

Use your criteria and recognize that those kinds of players never hit free agency. So of course that will show that Atlanta does not attract free agents. But that criteria would say that no city attracts free agents with the rare exceptions of Florida and LA.Is lack of free agency success unique to Atlanta?

I believe that's the point he's making. Getting free agent superstars in a pipe dream to most NBA teams so you have to use the draft to land that superstar whether that is actually drafting a great player or using your lottery pick to land that player which we aren't doing. The anti-tank people don't offer up any alternatives to how this team is supposed to get better. Free agents aren't coming, we don't have any assets other than Horford to trade for a superstar and we're not going to be in the lottery so how is this team supposed to get better? Are we just really hoping that Bud is such a great coach that he can take decent enough players and mold them into a winning machine? Forgive me if I have my doubts on that happening and I really enjoy Bud as a coach.

[supermariowest]

Yup lets get more "solid" players to keep us in the middle of the pack. For God's sake can we get off the treadmill and just go somewhere? Forward or backward, either would be welcomed. Sometimes you have to take a step back to move forward but this team(and some fans apparently) just seem completely fine with just being one of the 16 teams that makes the playoffs like that is somehow a big deal. At least a bad year gives you hope that you land a great talent and can start building an actual future. What exactly does this team get by staying this mediocre course? Another "solid" player? Great...

With a healthy Horford, I think this team is capable of making some noise in the playoffs. It seems you disagree. We should be in a better position next year -- healthy Horford, Bud has playoff coaching experience, Scott/Schro/Antić have more playing experience, Bebe/Moose/the rookie might be getting some meaningful minutes too. I think that team will also be capable of making some noise in the playoffs.

Listen, if the team was still Teague/Joe/Marvin/Josh/Al, then I would be all for blowing it up, taking some steps back, tanking if necessary. That team had clearly peaked. I don't think our current team has peaked, so I don't think taking steps back is necessary at this point.

[Guest]

Quick question for the board, when did free agency start in the NBA? How about unrestricted free agency? And why might I bring this up on a discussion about tanking and how to acquire players?

[AHF]

Obviously the free agent rules influence how large the free agent pool is. Tom Chambers was the first unrestricted free agent in 1988 so this isn't something that has been around forever. He was 28 and coming off an All-Star appearance in 1987 and was averaging 20.4 ppg for Seattle. He went on to earn consecutive 2nd Team All-NBA appearances while averaging 25.7 and 27.2 ppg for the Suns the next two seasons. That was 26 years ago.

Getting past history, the point I was trying to make was not that the difficulty in attracting elite free agents is limited to Atlanta. To the contrary, much of the league has to deal with knowing that an in-his-prime Shaq, Lebron, etc. is never going to sign up as an unrestricted free agent to play for Minnesota, Milwaukee, etc. unless there is an elite player there to attract free agents.

Teams like the LAL (and there aren't many) have historically enjoyed a big competitive advantage by being able to attract free agent studs while retaining all their home grown studs. Atlanta does not enjoy that advantage and shouldn't plan its strategy around being able to land Lebron when he opts to test the waters in free agency, etc.

Frankly, Miami would not have been in the running for Lebron either except for the fact that they had a 1st Team All-NBA and Finals MVP SG in Wade. That is the kind of attraction I think we will need to have to get an Anthony Davis type to consider us when he hits free agency. It won't be done with the likes of Ferry, Bud, Korver, Teague, Horford or Millsap, IMO, even assuming we would have little difficulty in freeing up the cap room for that elusive elite free agent. It has been done in other non-elite markets in the past as well: Tracy McGrady signed with Orlando so he could team up with Grant Hill.

Being able to lock in that superstar for 4 years under market and then for his RFA contract and then having a competitive advantage in dollars and years in resigning him is a big deal that you don't get if you don't play in the top of the draft. It has always been advantage in attracting players to be the home team (say Indiana Pacers with UFA Reggie Miller or Duncan with SA), an attractive market (say LA with Shaq or Nash to Phoenix), or a place with another star (say Miami with Wade, Lebron and Bosh or Orlando with T-Mac and McGrady).

You only get to be the home team if you draft the guy or are one of the rare people to acquire a star in a trade. We don't have the trade pieces to pull this type of trade off.

We are not in a market that attracts players.

We don't have another star to attract people. (Horford just isn't that guy do to a combination of on and off the court characteristics).

That leaves the draft as the best option in my book.

[Jody23]

With a healthy Horford, I think this team is capable of making some noise in the playoffs. It seems you disagree. We should be in a better position next year -- healthy Horford, Bud has playoff coaching experience, Scott/Schro/Antić have more playing experience, Bebe/Moose/the rookie might be getting some meaningful minutes too. I think that team will also be capable of making some noise in the playoffs. Listen, if the team was still Teague/Joe/Marvin/Josh/Al, then I would be all for blowing it up, taking some steps back, tanking if necessary. That team had clearly peaked. I don't think our current team has peaked, so I don't think taking steps back is necessary at this point.

What is the definition of "making some noise"?

[AHF]

What is the definition of "making some noise"?

Making the second round, apparently.

[Guest]

I don't believe the idea that we cannot attract free agents, or that we need another star to attract free agents. This clearly drives why I don't agree with @AHF, but at least he is willing to admit the changing structure of the league going forward. I can't stand when posters argue about tanking and cannot understand that the league 20 years ago is different, so using data from then as evidence holds little water.Part of why we don't see Atlanta with lots of free agent signings are because...well we haven't had too many offseasons with cap space to even sign a free agent. I can count the number of offseasons with cap space in the past 26 years on one hand. And one of those we snagged Mutombo, who was a DPOY before Atlanta and All-NBA (defense). So we can add that one on to that skewed "criteria" exercise. Seriously, how do you recall Moses but not Deke when discussing that?

[Jody23]

Making the second round, apparently.

Settling for that goal has always been the problem. I've been a fan since the 80s and like others, I want the organization to have higher aspirations than just "making some noise" because as we all know the noise gets silenced every time.It's like watching a match between Ric Flair and The Z-Man. Oh sure the Z-Man will put up a little resistance, clap his hands and pump his fists...make some noise. Next thing you know, thumb to the eye and then the figure four leg lock. Z-Man taps out like everyone expected. Lol.

[Plainview1981]

Yup lets get more "solid" players to keep us in the middle of the pack. For God's sake can we get off the treadmill and just go somewhere? Forward or backward, either would be welcomed. Sometimes you have to take a step back to move forward but this team(and some fans apparently) just seem completely fine with just being one of the 16 teams that makes the playoffs like that is somehow a big deal. At least a bad year gives you hope that you land a great talent and can start building an actual future. What exactly does this team get by staying this mediocre course? Another "solid" player? Great...

Here is what I think of drafting more "solid" players:

[AHF]

I don't believe the idea that we cannot attract free agents, or that we need another star to attract free agents. This clearly drives why I don't agree with @AHF, but at least he is willing to admit the changing structure of the league going forward. I can't stand when posters argue about tanking and cannot understand that the league 20 years ago is different, so using data from then as evidence holds little water.Part of why we don't see Atlanta with lots of free agent signings are because...well we haven't had too many offseasons with cap space to even sign a free agent. I can count the number of offseasons with cap space in the past 26 years on one hand. And one of those we snagged Mutombo, who was a DPOY before Atlanta and All-NBA (defense). So we can add that one on to that skewed "criteria" exercise. Seriously, how do you recall Moses but not Deke when discussing that?

Deke didn't qualify. He didn't make an All-NBA appearance at all before coming to Atlanta. He likewise never made a 1st or 2nd team while with Atlanta (he made one 3rd team appearance in the ATL). Mutombo played 18 seasons and made one 2nd team appearance (with the Sixers). That was it for his career.

Deke never finished in the top 10 in MVP voting and, in fact, only accumulated 4 points for his entire career. By way of comparison, Antoine Walker accumulated 6 points.

I loved Deke but he was never a superstar.

Edited March 19, 2014 by AHF

[supermariowest]

What is the definition of "making some noise"?

Making the second round, apparently.

That's your opinion, not mine.

Answering this question does me no good -- I'll get pegged as shortsighted, overly optimistic, one of the Disneys, a fan of mediocrity, a treadmiller, etc, but:

I think this team (healthy) plays smarter, more competitive ball than any team we've had in the past decade. This seems to be a point of contention. The previous core clearly peaked, but we don't know what this team can do. I'm not guaranteeing this team will win the championship, I just want to see them get a few runs in the playoffs. So, making some noise? I don't know -- playing competitive ball and upsetting one of the top seeds.

If some of you disagree, that's fine, but please accept the fact that we are not currently tanking and we probably won't be tanking next year.

[AHF]

I do accept we aren't currently tanking and have taken that position all year. I disagreed with that approach once we missed out on the superstars in FA but expected us to do something significant (home court) if we were sacrificing both our major cap space and our ability to participate in the most top rich draft in years. I do acknowledge that a big reason that we won't have a chance to do anything of significance this season is injury, but I felt very strongly coming into the year that a second round exit was the peak outcome for this team.

I just hope that Ferry can articulate his plan at some point so I have more comfort in our direction. I don't expect it, though, for multiple reasons (other teams will try to exploit that information, it open him up to second-guessing and criticism, etc.).

Edited March 19, 2014 by AHF

[Guest]

Deke didn't qualify. He didn't make an All-NBA appearance at all before coming to Atlanta. He likewise never made a 1st or 2nd team while with Atlanta (he made one 3rd team appearance in the ATL). Mutombo played 18 seasons and made one 2nd team appearance (with the Sixers). That was it for his career. Deke never finished in the top 10 in MVP voting and, in fact, only accumulated 4 points for his entire career. By way of comparison, Antoine Walker accumulated 6 points. I loved Deke but he was never a superstar.

This is why your criteria is useless. He is a likely Hall of Famer and a multiple time DPOY. If he is not a superstar then I might as well pull out the "LOL" responses. And All-NBA Defense is an All-NBA team, so Deke does count in that regard.