Hardaway says he will bring defense

[AHF]

Lol.  We gave up the 15th pick guys.  Lets not be stupid and pretend like we didn't.  You compare the guys available then against THJ and the second rounders we picked up.

 

That 15th pick for 19th plus second rounders was an ugly trade as well.  It was just a recognition that we were overpaying for THJ and we had to quickly swing some kind of deal to get more than just THJ so the 19th and two 2nd rounders it was.  

 

The 15th is what we gave up to end up with THJ.

Edited October 21, 2015 by AHF

[Mdizzle5]

I knew I wasn't crazy! Whew. Lol

[ATLSmith]

It's just preseason folks. Give him time to learn the offense before jumping to conclusions too soon.

Totally agree.  The Hawks seem to have decent player development these days, but they can't work miracles.  Give Jr at least a year. 

[AHF]

Totally agree.  The Hawks seem to have decent player development these days, but they can't work miracles.  Give Jr at least a year. 

We've got rights to him for a whole two years so he better not take too long!

[MaceCase]

We've got rights to him for a whole two years so he better not take too long!

Tad disingenuous, no?  Unless you think RFAs everywhere have been inspired by Tristan Thompson's stand against the man!

[AHF]

Tad disingenuous, no?  Unless you think RFAs everywhere have been inspired by Tristan Thompson's stand against the man!

Let's put it this way.  We have him under control for two years less than our alternatives in the draft.  If the idea was that he was a vet who wouldn't need the handholding that a rookie will need, then I hope it doesn't take him a full year to become a contributing part of our rotation.

[MaceCase]

Let's put it this way.  We have him under control for two years less than our alternatives in the draft.  If the idea was that he was a vet who wouldn't need the handholding that a rookie will need, then I hope it doesn't take him a full year to become a contributing part of our rotation.

So why not figure that it would also potentially take a rookie 2-3 years more to groom into their role making the 2 years of extra control moot?  I know you've been bullish on this theory of yours from the moment that this trade happened but I would have hoped that you would have noticed the many inherent holes in it by now.  At the end of the day you've been quibbling over a potential max "years of control" of 9 versus 7.  I don't know, seems just a tad bit anal retentive in attempting to find more reasons to hate the trade, no?

Edited October 21, 2015 by MaceCase

[AHF]

 You're forgetting about the additional second rrounder(s?) and additional cap space that ended up being oh so important to retaining Paul.

LolLolz.

I mention the second rounders 3 times but am forgetting them?

 time!

The cap space was not significant, IMO.  By way of perspective, the difference between THJ's salary and the 15th pick's salary for this year is roughly the same difference as between Holiday or Walter and a rookie FA contract.  Sap already showed he was willing to give up some cash to stay here and I don't think this would have been a difference maker at all.

Edited October 21, 2015 by AHF

[AHF]

So why not figure that it would also potentially take a rookie 2-3 years more to groom into their role making the 2 years of extra control moot?  I know you've been bullish on this theory of yours from the moment that this trade happened but I would have hoped that you would have noticed the many inherent holes in it by now.  At the end of the day you've been quibbling over a potential max "years of control" of 9 versus 7.  I don't know, seems just a tad bit anal retentive in attempting to find more reasons to hate the trade, no?

Agree to disagree.  There were 24 players in his draft class who have put up better WS/48 numbers and 57 who have put up better VORP numbers than he has to date in his career.  

Among last year's rookies, 18 put up better WS/48 numbers than he did and 58 put up better VORP numbers.  Is that really impossible for a rookie to match what he has done?

[TheFuzz]

I think squibbling over the little bit of capspace is silly.

Something I'm noticing: we as Hawks fans aren't used to looking at EVERY player as a prospect, because until we got Bud and this collection of high character players, we weren't accustomed to having players that WORKED and coaches that COACHED. Think of Tim Hardaway Jr. as a prospect similar to Oubre or Portis or whoever. A little bit shorter of a deal, sure, but whatever. Every player now is improving. Horford is adding a 3 to his game at the age of 30 for crying out loud!

Bud looked at the skills Hardaway has. He hasn't been particularly effective stats-wise, but he's obviously got a pretty, quick stroke. He's shown some decent ball-handling and finishing ability (nothing otherworldly, but he's SHOWN it). Plus, he works hard. It's the job of a coach to put him in positions to use these skills and coach out the bad habits so he'll become a much more effective/efficient player. It's the players job to listen and work hard, which I think Hardaway will do.

Point is, Hardaway has shown a lot more than what Oubre has (i.e. nothing), and has shown comparable skills to plenty of prospects picked in his range, but better than most of the wings. I liked Dekker, but he has defensive questions. Who will be the better player in five years, Hardaway or Oubre? Hardaway has a much better foundation of skills and IMO is a much more fluid athlete. He'll be fine, be patient.

[AHF]

"The 15th is what we gave up to end up with THJ."

That was my reference point, probably should have bolded iit, but I'm having enough trouble with this editor as is.

What immediately followed:

You compare the guys available then against THJ and the second rounders we picked up.

 

That 15th pick for 19th plus second rounders was an ugly trade as well.  It was just a recognition that we were overpaying for THJ and we had to quickly swing some kind of deal to get more than just THJ so the 19th and two 2nd rounders it was.  

[AHF]

So then why did you not mention those at the end? Which was, kind of, like, the whole point if I could have effectively used the editor in mobile. (I also didn't intentionally put that LolLolz on the initial reply, I think it was a copy-paste-quote-something issue going on)

Mostly because I consider a couple of second rounders pretty inconsequential.  If we hit an impact player on one or both of them, I'll happily recognize that in addition to whatever THJ provides as I mentioned in the post.  

We got the same 2 second rounders that Charlotte in 2014 got from Miami to move from the 26th to the 24th spot.  I feel the 19th to the 15th move commands a higher premium.  During the 2015 draft Boston offered the same two second rounder to move up 7 slots.  In addition, they were going to add 3 other first round picks (1 in 2015, 2 in 2016) for a total of 4 first round picks and 2 second rounders to move up 7 slots.  

While we shouldn't have been able to get that much for moving down 4 slots, but I think it illustrates we were on the very low end of what you should get for that move at the #15 slot in the draft.  Hence, I don't credit it with a ton of value and view it more as trying to get anything we could under pressure to make a deal.  Acquiring a couple of second rounders is better than nothing if you are trading for a guy like THJ whose price tag is well below the #15 pick but that is all it is -- a little better than nothing.

If you view our trade as a salary dump then that puts it in a better light but I think a salary dump was not needed in the draft and was not the intent.  (Salary dumps are obviously much more lopsided in value than trades that are purely about draft positioning and pick acquisition).  We traded for THJ - not to clear salary - and just acquired as much as we could in a limited window of time.  I get that.  Once you commit to acquiring THJ and giving up the pick, you just scramble to get anything more you can.  Had Bud known how the draft would unfold he would have traded back earlier and gotten significantly more for trading back given the Knicks reported willingness to let THJ go for a low price (reported as a second rounder in some outlets after the deal).  

 

[AHF]

Bud and or Wes specifically mentioned that they freed up cap space after the draft, so either they really enjoy bullshitting us or it was at least partly a motivation of the trade.

I don't think it was a motivation at all.  I think it was a positive secondary outcome.  It deserved to be mentioned but I don't believe for a second they came in motivated to free up half a million in cap space on the fly in the middle of the draft by selling the pick at a nice discount.

[Guest]

This is becoming like the tank thread or the we traded Lou and Bebe for nothing or we got nothing for Joe.

Tank-a-nothing.

I'm done with this thread.

[MaceCase]

Agree to disagree.  There were 24 players in his draft class who have put up better WS/48 numbers and 57 who have put up better VORP numbers than he has to date in his career.  

Among last year's rookies, 18 put up better WS/48 numbers than he did and 58 put up better VORP numbers.  Is that really impossible for a rookie to match what he has done?

Contextually speaking, Only Muscala has put up a better career WS/48 than Hardaway amongst Hawks draftees during Bud's reign and he also has a higher VORP than Dennis too so me thinks you should be more concerned about how youngins perform in the specific system of question than just compiling a list of randoms.  That would seem to be a greater concern for a GM and coach, no?

[AHF]

Contextually speaking, Only Muscala has put up a better career WS/48 than Hardaway amongst Hawks draftees during Bud's reign and he also has a higher VORP than Dennis too so me thinks you should be more concerned about how youngins perform in the specific system of question than just compiling a list of randoms.  That would seem to be a greater concern for a GM and coach, no?

The idea that we should focus on actual performance of the player in a system is fair.  I would say Hardaway's defense was an epic disaster in NY's system.  His offense was solid his rookie year and a disaster his sophmore year.  We don't have any evidence on how he will perform in our system unless we want to start using preseason numbers (I don't) so I am taking a wait and see approach.

 

Uhhhh you're side stepping the whole point by posting up a straw man that I am saying the only motivation of the trade was to free up cap space. No, I didn't say that so stop lawyering around on this. The whole point is it is an added benefit and it did occur and you failed to mention it within the context of the trade.

"positive secondary" is pure bullshit right here. I'm browsing through this thread and I see 0 mention of cap space even though it clearly mattered. To poo-poo it is to show ignorance on the issue. "Oh but Paul would have taken an EVEN STEEPER discount because, like he did take a discount right???" Things don't work that way, especially since $300K in cap space doesn't mean that Paul takes $300K less. For a 3 year contract, that turns out to be $967,500. Maybe you didn't realize that?

The freeing up of minor cap space was not a motive.  Like you say, it is an added benefit.  I am not saying it wasn't the sole motive.  I am saying I don't think it influenced the decision at all.  In terms of the impact of that cap space, I haven't seen that it realized in anything material.  I don't think $967 over 3 years motivated Paul one way or another.  If it did, he would be suiting up in Orlando given what they offered and the impact of not having to pay state income tax in Florida.  So the minor cap space we got doesn't warrant much discussion because I think Sap is here either way.  It just gives him another 1.5%.

Edited October 22, 2015 by AHF

[AUhawksfan]

Paul had a max salary of $19,689,000 last season. If Orlando supposedly gave Paul a max offer for 3 seasons, that would be $19,689,000 then $20,575,005 and then $21,461,010 based off of the 4.5% raises that they could offer. This is $61,725,015 in an offer and presumed to be Paul's alternative.

Atlanta settled on giving Paul a starting salary of $18,671,659 last season which ate up all of the cap space they had (although Paul's agent erred in that they could have had an extra $100K starting if Atlanta traded for Tiago after signing Paul...). Paul gets 7.5% raises from Atlanta for the next two seasons at $20,072,033 and $21,472,407. This will total $60,216,099.

So Paul took $1,508,916 less to sign with Atlanta. What you are saying is that, well gee because Paul took one discount of $1.5 million then gee-willykers it must be the case that he'd also take a $967K discount as well!

You do realize that a discount of $2,475,916 is much greater than $1,508,916, right? Because I don't think you do. You're effectively pushing a slippery slope argument. "Well Paul took one discount, that means he would be equally willing to take another discount of comparable magnitude!"

The 15th pick, which *who knows who would have been picked* (which ends up masking the uncertainty in that outcome a lot more than anyone on here leads on to believe), turns into Haddaway, some picks, and a good chunk of cap space. No one has mentioned the cap space, but that was pretty helpful.

Speaking of "lawyering" I feel like you're trying a little hard here to create an argument.  Step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath....Wooosahhh

Edited October 22, 2015 by AUhawksfan

[AHF]

Sap took more of a discount than that. You are ignoring the tax issue - so yes the difference was minor.  If you think that was a deal breaker then feel free to disagree with me.  I think him giving up on the tax advantage was bigger and you just showed the other hit he took was bigger.  That makes the THJ money the least important of those issues by definition and also the easiest to address.

[AHF]

"Lawyering" would be bringing up tax issues.

The state tax amounts to roughly $3.6M.  That is roughly 3.5x the amount of the THJ issue.  Much more significant.

[Guest]

All this is irrelevant,  per Coach Bud on radio today: At #15 (assuming they couldn't move up) , they preferred a wing player with NBA experience who could help NOW. He knows that THJr can shoot the ball as well as put it on the floor and get to the basket.

Sucked back in.