Our pint gaurds are not getting to the rim

[aali34]

Although Jeff Teague and Dennis Schröder are probably near the top of the list of point guards that attack the paint, its not been looking too well so far.

Every time they go around a screen, their defender goes under and dares them to shoot. I'm not asking them to pull up threes like Stephen Curry but to me it would be better if the followed a Tony Parker model. When you watch the spurs they use the pick and roll and tony parker in different ways than the hawks with their point guards.  Tony Parker came into the nba with no jumper and now he is like one of the best mid range shooters in the NBA for point guards. You see him doing much more than holding the ball, like

Off ball Offense -

spot up 3's

Running around screens (without the ball) for a mid range jumper

Cutting to the basket

Plus he's got way more moves than Schröder, one thing you gotta love about teague is that he at least got some go to moves if he gets stuck in a certain situation,  ex - pump fakes, floaters.

Schröder just  goes straight for the rim and it gets annoying at times when he tries to do a contested layup or something and he is basically useless without the ball in his hands.

I don't think I have ever seen Schröder attempt a floater in my life.

Even though they may take some open assisted threes, its not the same as keeping the defense honest when they go under a screen

I don't care about pull up 3's just some mid range shots would be nice.

[aali34]

our offense relies on them getting to the rim and collapsing the defense, if they get dared to shoot,they should shoot it (midrange)

I know Dennis isn't afraid to let it fly, but he takes stupid shots sometimes.

Teague needs to shoot midrange jumpers more.

 

My bad if I sound pissed, I just got so annoyed during the cavs game when Delavadova kept going under screens.

[Jody23]

25 minutes ago, aali34 said:

our offense relies on them getting to the rim and collapsing the defense, if they get dared to shoot,they should shoot it (midrange)

I know Dennis isn't afraid to let it fly, but he takes stupid shots sometimes.

Teague needs to shoot midrange jumpers more.

 

My bad if I sound pissed, I just got so annoyed during the cavs game when Delavadova kept going under screens.

Great points.  In today's NBA, if your point guard can't shoot, you're at a disadvantage.  The playoffs, especially the Cleveland series showed teams how you defend the Hawks and part of it is making Teague and Dennis beat you from the perimeter while taking Korver away.  We're seeing that if neither can get clean drives to the basket, then they become liabilities offensively because they can't shoot.  It is very difficult for small guards who can't shoot to be effective consistently.

[Lurker]

It's too late for Teague to become consistent with his jumper. He'll hit 40% at best on them.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

Although Jeff Teague and Dennis Schröder are probably near the top of the list of point guards that attack the paint, its not been looking too well so far.

Every time they go around a screen, their defender goes under and dares them to shoot. I'm not asking them to pull up threes like Stephen Curry but to me it would be better if the followed a Tony Parker model. When you watch the spurs they use the pick and roll and tony parker in different ways than the hawks with their point guards.  Tony Parker came into the nba with no jumper and now he is like one of the best mid range shooters in the NBA for point guards. You see him doing much more than holding the ball, like

Off ball Offense -

spot up 3's

Running around screens (without the ball) for a mid range jumper

Cutting to the basket

Plus he's got way more moves than Schröder, one thing you gotta love about teague is that he at least got some go to moves if he gets stuck in a certain situation,  ex - pump fakes, floaters.

Schröder just  goes straight for the rim and it gets annoying at times when he tries to do a contested layup or something and he is basically useless without the ball in his hands.

I don't think I have ever seen Schröder attempt a floater in my life.

Even though they may take some open assisted threes, its not the same as keeping the defense honest when they go under a screen

I don't care about pull up 3's just some mid range shots would be nice.

Excellent post!

 

i brought this same thing up a couple of weeks ago in a thread I started about our "offensive woes" but I couldn't quite get to the point I was trying to make but it's exactly what you're saying.

 

We have never had a post game player on this team other than  Sap occasionally taking advantage of a mismatch but ultimately our inside scoring relies on Teague and Dennis just like it did all last season. Horford wasn't in the paint he was in the the mid range area spacing the floor for Teague or Dennis to have some room to penetrate the lane. Or horford or sap would set the pick and either pop or roll to the goal of the lane was free.

 

BUT unfortunately the cavs yet again has showed other teams how to beat us when they sealed our fate in the ECF...go under on Teague or Dennis and force them into that mid range jumper...oh and it doesn't matter who you go under with just contest the midrange shot...if you can recall it Tristan Thompson was on Teague multiple times in that series by Delledova switching off and Thompson just staying under to purposely give Teague some space so that he will take the midrange jumper because it was basically an open shot!

 

Fast forward into this season I saw Boston plus other teams do this multiple times and it's not a strategy it's more of a gimmick, mind playing type thing to me....it's "hey bud we figured yo shit out after a whole year, took us a while but we got that shit on lock now" .........so the question is what now Bud?

 

but to take it a little further Bud may not know "what now?"...because if you recall his press conference after the ECF bud constantly kept saying "Teague HAS to knock down that open mid range shot"....and that's why I call it a gimmick more so than an defensive strategy cause giving up an open shot is dumb but they are playing these mind games with the Hawks point guards and baiting them to shoot and we can't really ask bud to change his offense cause it still works, we have players that can take what the defense gives them.

 

Teague is elite at penetration, avg at 3s, good at the free throw line, below avg at mid range shots....defense solution: bait his ass into mid range shots all game.

 

Dennis is good at penetration, a now avg 3 point shooter, good at the free throw line, even worse mid range shooter than Teague...defense solution: bait him into a difficult lay up or into the mid range shot all game.

 

i hope more read your thread cause placing all the blame on Sap and Horford for buckets at the goal is ridiculous especially when last season the elite penetration of Teague is what got buckets in the paint either scored by him or dumped off to someone else near the basket or dumped off to someone else who passed it to an open man on the perimeter.....regardless it's a fact that last season most inside scoring started with Teagues penetration and now that the league knows this they are simply saying "Teague we are going to go under and force you to shoot mid Rangers...show us that you can do that"

 

This is a HUGE reason we are having offensive problems and it's why the offense is stagnant. If Teague don't start showing a little Tony Parker in his pick and roll game the Hawks are going to continue to struggle. Horford being closer to the goal does nothing...he doesn't have an wide option of post moves and he's not going to get them out of no where. All Al can do is get back to the mid range which will help a little but not a lot without that elite penetration from Teague.

 

i hope this thread gets more acknowledgement because this is the biggest offensive problem that's being overlooked.

 

 

 

 

Sorry I had to vent.......(calming down now).....

[Lurker]

The only way to solve this problem is to trade for another PG or go all in on Schröder because Teague's mid range jumper just ain't going to get better at this point.

[JTB]

11 minutes ago, Lurker said:

The only way to solve this problem is to trade for another PG or go all in on Schröder because Teague's mid range jumper just ain't going to get better at this point.

Ok but how exactly do you know that? Lol...hell there were plenty of fans saying teague will never be an all star pg and you saw what happened last year...it's very possible that Teague can develop that mid range shot. Hell I rather him and horford try to workout together to develop that shot before we seriously consider trading him especially before we give Dennis control of buds offense at point.

 

damn I know it's been bad and we are all upset including me but it's not "tank time"...and suggesting we trade Teague and roll with Dennis means your suggesting we tank

 

 

Edited November 23, 2015 by JTB

[Guest]

Agree with at @aali34      but....................

How long did it take Tony Parker to get a reliable jumpshot?

How long did it take Teague to develop that floater and his other counter moves?  He's finally learned to stop picking up his dribble once he gets to the paint and jump passing.

Teague and Dennis are still finding their way in the NBA and Bud's offense.

[Lurker]

44 minutes ago, JTB said:

Ok but how exactly do you know that? Lol...hell there were plenty of fans saying teague will never be an all star pg and you saw what happened last year...it's very possible that Teague can develop that mid range shot. Hell I rather him and horford try to workout together to develop that shot before we seriously consider trading him especially before we give Dennis control of buds offense at point.

 

damn I know it's been bad and we are all upset including me but it's not "tank time"...and suggesting we trade Teague and roll with Dennis means your suggesting we tank

 

 

You’re asking for him to solve a major problem, the only time he can do so is the offseason.

Look, this offense is going to struggle against good defenses as long as teams see Horford as a laughable offensive threat (stick their best defensive big man on Millsap) and teams force Teague and Schröder to shoot jumpers and they miss them. The best choice at this point is to take this season off and tank.

[JTB]

8 minutes ago, Lurker said:

You’re asking for him to solve a major problem, the only time he can do so is the offseason.

Look, this offense is going to struggle against good defenses as long as teams see Horford as a laughable offensive threat (stick their best defensive big man on Millsap) and teams force Teague and Schröder to shoot jumpers and they miss them. The best choice at this point is to take this season off and tank.

Nope...Teague is too young to do such a thing and if he hadn't improved in the recent past I would agree but as of now it makes no sense to trade him.

 

Buds just going to have to make a lot of addjustments if possible to hide this flaw. One thing that could help is the Hawks playing a faster tempo in the half court to see what the defense gives them and if they go under like expected on the screen maybe bud can start bringing a double screen to trap Teagues opponent then force a big man to Come out on Teague on the perimeter with plenty of time left in the shot clock now we have mismatches on the court.

Not saying this is something that would work or would even be used (probably not) but point is bud is smart enough to figure out a band aid strategy until we can fix these things over the off season next year.

[JTB]

25 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Agree with at @aali34      but....................

How long did it take Tony Parker to get a reliable jumpshot?

How long did it take Teague to develop that floater and his other counter moves?  He's finally learned to stop picking up his dribble once he gets to the paint and jump passing.

Teague and Dennis are still finding their way in the NBA and Bud's offense.

I'm not a spurs fan but I want to say Parker got his mid range shot to be reliable somewhere between 05-07. Probably closer to 07....so it took him a minute but he did develop it while he was still in his prime 

[aali34]

unless its a top 8 pick, tanking seems useless to me,

our big problem is that our players have holes in thier games (Undersized bigs and small forward, point gaurds cant shoot), an unproven rookie is'nt going to do much in thier first season.

IMO we need to get a free agent that can put more pressure on the opposing defenses 

The thing that seperates the Hawks from everyother team in the league that have ball movement as the main part of thier offense is that they have players that force you to keep an eye on them where ever they are. The hawks dont need a superstar, just a good wing scorer that draws attention and can make iso type plays.

Warriors - 

Steph Curry - the second he goes around a screen  the entire team has a heart attack

 

Spurs - 

Tim Duncan - Post

Lamarcus Aldridge - Post/ Midrange

Kawhi Leonard - Post/Midrange/Iso

 

For the hawks to  able to win games thier ball movement needs to be really good

The problem is we initiate everything withour point gaurds and now they are'nt playing well, and since we have no ohter option to get people open the offense staggers. This is the reason why I think they brought in TJ Hardaway ( personal nickname) he has the potential to be the type of player that can drive and kick, shoot the midrange and longball, and play an isolation type of basketball. If he starts playing and plays well, I see the hawks winning more games.

Edited November 23, 2015 by aali34

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, JTB said:

Nope...Teague is too young to do such a thing and if he hadn't improved in the recent past I would agree but as of now it makes no sense to trade him.

 

Buds just going to have to make a lot of addjustments if possible to hide this flaw. One thing that could help is the Hawks playing a faster tempo in the half court to see what the defense gives them and if they go under like expected on the screen maybe bud can start bringing a double screen to trap Teagues opponent then force a big man to Come out on Teague on the perimeter with plenty of time left in the shot clock now we have mismatches on the court.

Not saying this is something that would work or would even be used (probably not) but point is bud is smart enough to figure out a band aid strategy until we can fix these things over the off season next year.

I keep saying I don't like the space and pace we are playing with offensively.  Too much hesitation and pump faking on passes and taking shots

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I keep saying I don't like the space and pace we are playing with offensively.  Too much hesitation and pup faking on passes and taking shots

I agree...pup fakes are overrated. We need to throw in some kitty fakes to mix it up...

[aali34]

I just remembered something, the hawks have no wing or any player besides shelvin mack that can shoot well off the dribble, I think bazemore's been working on it but i need to see more. To make teams struggle we need a wing player that can drive and pull up consistently 

Plus, Al Horford is'nt an ISO type of big, he needs others to create for him and when they can't his offense suffers so basically when teagu plays bad, it makes it hard for him to get open shots.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Spud2Nique said:

I agree...pup fakes are overrated. We need to throw in some kitty fakes to mix it up...

While we're at it, might as well add some Bunny misses for good measure,

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

While we're at it, might as well add some Bunny misses for good measure,

Lol...see, with you editing pup to pump, my post is no longer humerous. :-)

[AUhawksfan]

3 hours ago, aali34 said:

Although Jeff Teague and Dennis Schröder are probably near the top of the list of point guards that attack the paint, its not been looking too well so far.

Every time they go around a screen, their defender goes under and dares them to shoot. I'm not asking them to pull up threes like Stephen Curry but to me it would be better if the followed a Tony Parker model. When you watch the spurs they use the pick and roll and tony parker in different ways than the hawks with their point guards.  Tony Parker came into the nba with no jumper and now he is like one of the best mid range shooters in the NBA for point guards. You see him doing much more than holding the ball, like

Off ball Offense -

spot up 3's

Running around screens (without the ball) for a mid range jumper

Cutting to the basket

Plus he's got way more moves than Schröder, one thing you gotta love about teague is that he at least got some go to moves if he gets stuck in a certain situation,  ex - pump fakes, floaters.

Schröder just  goes straight for the rim and it gets annoying at times when he tries to do a contested layup or something and he is basically useless without the ball in his hands.

I don't think I have ever seen Schröder attempt a floater in my life.

Even though they may take some open assisted threes, its not the same as keeping the defense honest when they go under a screen

I don't care about pull up 3's just some mid range shots would be nice.

Ideas like this is how I'm hoping Bud is thinking, you have to adapt in the NBA.  He went with what worked last year but I'm curious to see how he adapts and if he does because he needs to soon. 

It's clear he needs to at least make some tweaks to the sets we run, on top of potentially making some small shakeups to the lineup and maybe even a trade.

[JTB]

7 minutes ago, aali34 said:

unless its a top 8 pick, tanking seems useless to me,

our big problem is that our players have holes in thier games (Undersized bigs and small forward, point gaurds cant shoot), an unproven rookie is'nt going to do much in thier first season.

IMO we need to get a free agent that can put more pressure on the opposing defenses 

The thing that seperates the Hawks from everyother team in the league that have ball movement as the main part of thier offense is that they have players that force you to keep an eye on them where ever they are. The hawks dont need a superstar, just a good wing scorer that draws attention and can make iso type plays.

Warriors - 

Steph Curry - the second he goes around a screen  the entire team has a heart attack

 

Spurs - 

Tim Duncan - Post

Lamarcus Aldridge - Post/ Midrange

Kawhi Leonard - Post/Midrange/Iso

 

For the hawks to  able to win games thier ball movement needs to be really good

The problem is we initiate everything withour point gaurds and now they are'nt playing well, and since we have no ohter option to get people open the offense staggers. This is the reason why I think they brought in TJ Hardaway ( personal nickname) he has the potential to be the type of player that can drive and kick, shoot the midrange and longball, and play an isolation type of basketball. If he starts playing and plays well, I see the hawks winning more games.

I feel you but you did just name hall of fame and future hall of fame players lol

 

but other than that yes I too thought we were bring in THJ to give the offense a different look as far as a go to iso scorer other than sap and Teague when it was needed ....and was basically hoping THJ would flourish at it but bud just haven't tried to play him to see what he can do.

9 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I keep saying I don't like the space and pace we are playing with offensively.  Too much hesitation and pup faking on passes and taking shots

Yeah the hesitation is the biggest problem for me but I'm not against the pace and space... The problem is the pick and roll or pick and pop isn't working along with the pace and space strategy anymore cause defenses are going under on our points and big men are staying home with our bigs.

 

buds Spurs like offense is getting beat by gimmick play. Opponents are telling the Hawks we can guard you one on one and take away your penetration which takes away easy passes and cleaner ball movement and force you to shoot jumpers you don't want to necessarily take like mid range shots for our pgs and 5 threes again for horford....basically we need a little "Iso-Joe" to go along with this Spurs like offense which the Spurs actually already have in Duncan, Leonard, and now Aldridge as you already know.

Once we get a more effective iso scorer that's atleast on the level of Joe Johnson and he's able to run the offense as planned and push us through stagnant possessions with some good iso scoring we will be more than ok.

[kurupt]

Zitat

 

I don't think I have ever seen Schröder attempt a floater in my life.

 

Stopped reading there...