Since the Draft Lottery is FIXED... My prediction is

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Agreed. Hoping that Korver shows great coaching abilities with Hardaway. He worked with DMC with good results. Maybe we have our future SG already. Hoping so, that way we could concentrate on that starting SF spot. Even if we do bring Baze back Bud likely wouldn't give him minutes at SG which is where he belongs anyway. Would be nice to have a SF with more size. 

Yep.  I have eyed...  Lance Thomas or Jeff Green.

The size that these guys brings to the position would be an improvement.   Plus Thomas can shoot and plays good perimeter defense.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Bud has to be smart enough to start aggressively developing THJr so that he can start and Korver can come off the bench.   This year, our offense was too dependent on Korver.

 

Coaching can only do so much.  I hope your optimism is well founded.  

[Guest]

I don't  want Bud turning THJR into Kyle with just 3s, he has a more varied  skillset. 

My hope is he becomes a mix of Kyle and Kent

[AHF]

59 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I don't  want Bud turning THJR into Kyle with just 3s, he has a more varied  skillset. 

My hope is he becomes a mix of Kyle and Kent

A mix of Kyle and Kent is a big range from scrub to All-Star depending on which characteristics you mix.  

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

A mix of Kyle and Kent is a big range from scrub to All-Star depending on which characteristics you mix.  

What exactly was Baze before  he got here?Riding the pine  as a towel waving energy guy in GSW, getting traded to LA, playing a ton because Kobe was injured, then unto Atlanta.

I'm talking more about Baze's use of his athleticism to get in the paint but not as out of control.  I'm talking about Bud not limiting him to just be like Kyle as a 3 point shooter,   he will never be that.   He can do more with the ball.

[macdaddy]

15 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What exactly was Baze before  he got here?Riding the pine  as a towel waving energy guy in GSW, getting traded to LA, playing a ton because Kobe was injured, then unto Atlanta.

I'm talking more about Baze's use of his athleticism to get in the paint but not as out of control.  I'm talking about Bud not limiting him to just be like Kyle as a 3 point shooter,   he will never be that.   He can do more with the ball.

Yes.   And in reality Hardaway already has better handles than Baze.   I'm hoping he can be a real scorer for us.

[AHF]

55 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Yes.   And in reality Hardaway already has better handles than Baze.   I'm hoping he can be a real scorer for us.

Hardaway has better handles than either Kyle or Baze.  His "other" numbers (rebounding, assists, steals, blocks....) are total non-impact ala Kyle.  Hardaway is a little better jump shooter than Baze but muuuuuuuuuuuuch worse than Kyle.  Baze is the best at getting to the line but they all suck.  THJr could really help himself by watching some tapes of Kevin Martin this summer and start working on getting to the line more.  

[Diesel]

16 hours ago, AHF said:

Hardaway has better handles than either Kyle or Baze.  His "other" numbers (rebounding, assists, steals, blocks....) are total non-impact ala Kyle.  Hardaway is a little better jump shooter than Baze but muuuuuuuuuuuuch worse than Kyle.  Baze is the best at getting to the line but they all suck.  THJr could really help himself by watching some tapes of Kevin Martin this summer and start working on getting to the line more.  

When we picked up THJr, one of the things I liked about him was his athleticism (whatever that means).   He had the ability to shoot from outside and to drive.  I think the biggest rumble against him was his basketball decisions.   But honestly, he played for the Knicks.  They don't encourage thinking.   I hoped that Bud would work on that aspect of his game (and still do).   I see as much if not more progression in his game than what we see from Baze or DMC in their first year.  I think that he fits as SG and now is the time to start phasing out KK.  Not that Kyle doesn't have a spot, but the whole town waits for Kyle to get free and shoot a bomb.   The Cavs answered it.  They face guarded Kyle because he can't shoot with a hand in his face.   I think THJr is different.  He can drive.  He has a good first step.   Instead of working on his shooting, I would let him be trained by Ray Allen.  Let him learn how to give an upfake from 18 and then put the ball on the floor.  This guy could be better than Harden, but it takes development. 

[AHF]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

This guy could be better than Harden, but it takes development. 

No.  Just no.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

When we picked up THJr, one of the things I liked about him was his athleticism (whatever that means).   He had the ability to shoot from outside and to drive.  I think the biggest rumble against him was his basketball decisions.   But honestly, he played for the Knicks.  They don't encourage thinking.   I hoped that Bud would work on that aspect of his game (and still do).   I see as much if not more progression in his game than what we see from Baze or DMC in their first year.  I think that he fits as SG and now is the time to start phasing out KK.  Not that Kyle doesn't have a spot, but the whole town waits for Kyle to get free and shoot a bomb.   The Cavs answered it.  They face guarded Kyle because he can't shoot with a hand in his face.   I think THJr is different.  He can drive.  He has a good first step.   Instead of working on his shooting, I would let him be trained by Ray Allen.  Let him learn how to give an upfake from 18 and then put the ball on the floor.  This guy could be better than Harden, but it takes development. 

I agreed with everything until the Harden part.

He'll be better defensively than Harden, that's about it.

[Diesel]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 1:01 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

I agreed with everything until the Harden part.

He'll be better defensively than Harden, that's about it.

Well, when you ignore the defense (AHF) then you can easily say No.  However, when you consider the whole player... Harden is a chucker... Period.  I think that THJr has the same skillset as Harden but I think with development, he won't be so much of a chucker and he's already defensively superior to Harden.

[AHF]

THJr hasn't shown he can be a quality starter.  Harden has already shown a lot more than that.  THJr is not a good perimeter shooter and his ability to drive is limited in impact due to his inability to get to the line (our team stinks at this and while he has the tools to be our best his FTA rate stinks).  Defensively Harden and THJr are on the same level.  Harden plays more minutes and takes more plays off but both are servicable at best.

It is laughable to suggest that THJr will turn out to be a multiple 1st team All-NBA player with "development."

He developed so much this season that he was DNP-CD for all of Game 4 and nearly all of Game 3.  Right back where he started the season - a healthy scratch on the bench.

[Diesel]

21 minutes ago, AHF said:

THJr hasn't shown he can be a quality starter.  Harden has already shown a lot more than that.  THJr is not a good perimeter shooter and his ability to drive is limited in impact due to his inability to get to the line (our team stinks at this and while he has the tools to be our best his FTA rate stinks).  Defensively Harden and THJr are on the same level.  Harden plays more minutes and takes more plays off but both are servicable at best.

It is laughable to suggest that THJr will turn out to be a multiple 1st team All-NBA player with "development."

He developed so much this season that he was DNP-CD for all of Game 4 and nearly all of Game 3.  Right back where he started the season - a healthy scratch on the bench.

Yep, you could have said the same things about DMC and Baze before they went through the development machine of Bud.

And both of those guys had serious flaws in their game.

Hey Throw Sap in there too.

[macdaddy]

28 minutes ago, AHF said:

THJr hasn't shown he can be a quality starter.  Harden has already shown a lot more than that.  THJr is not a good perimeter shooter and his ability to drive is limited in impact due to his inability to get to the line (our team stinks at this and while he has the tools to be our best his FTA rate stinks).  Defensively Harden and THJr are on the same level.  Harden plays more minutes and takes more plays off but both are servicable at best.

It is laughable to suggest that THJr will turn out to be a multiple 1st team All-NBA player with "development."

He developed so much this season that he was DNP-CD for all of Game 4 and nearly all of Game 3.  Right back where he started the season - a healthy scratch on the bench.

I'm a fan for THJr but I agree with this.   At least the end part.   I do think that Hardaway has good handles and can drive and get to the line like no one else on this team.   But look at what Harden did his last year in OKC off the bench, on a team that went to the finals, playing behind Durant and Westbrook and he still scores 16 a game.    

I'm still optimistic that Hardaway can be a good scorer for us but let's not be delusional. 

[Bankingitbig]

15 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm a fan for THJr but I agree with this.   At least the end part.   I do think that Hardaway has good handles and can drive and get to the line like no one else on this team.   But look at what Harden did his last year in OKC off the bench, on a team that went to the finals, playing behind Durant and Westbrook and he still scores 16 a game.    

I'm still optimistic that Hardaway can be a good scorer for us but let's not be delusional. 

Off the bench, but still playing starter's level minutes (30+). THJ's per 36 numbers his first two seasons are pretty comparable to Harden's first two. I think this last year was a wash for THJ as Bud wanted to develop him and make him learn our system before playing him. Now, I don't think THJ will become Harden (nor do I think anyone will in our system), but I see quite a bit of potential in him.

[Diesel]

26 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm a fan for THJr but I agree with this.   At least the end part.   I do think that Hardaway has good handles and can drive and get to the line like no one else on this team.   But look at what Harden did his last year in OKC off the bench, on a team that went to the finals, playing behind Durant and Westbrook and he still scores 16 a game.    

I'm still optimistic that Hardaway can be a good scorer for us but let's not be delusional. 

Harden was a better player out of college.. NO doubt.  He had more skills developed going to the Thunder... No doubt.  And he was able to get good playing time in a system that helped him grow.  What's I'm saying about THJr is that now that he's in our developmental system, he will be the new KK but he has handles, he has athleticism, he is not just a standstill shooter.  He has the same abilities as Harden and he plays defense.  At maximum development, he could be better than Harden.

 

[AHF]

20 minutes ago, Bankingitbig said:

Off the bench, but still playing starter's level minutes (30+). THJ's per 36 numbers his first two seasons are pretty comparable to Harden's first two. I think this last year was a wash for THJ as Bud wanted to develop him and make him learn our system before playing him. Now, I don't think THJ will become Harden (nor do I think anyone will in our system), but I see quite a bit of potential in him.

Their per 36 numbers are comparable in pp36.  Every other stat Harden basically doubles THJr's numbers (steals, blocks, rebounds, assists, etc. per 36).

By their third season, Harden was putting up a 21 PER while THJr managed a career low 11.7 PER.  In the playoffs, Harden averaged a per 36 18.6 points, on .605% TS% 5.8 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 1.8 steals compared to THJr's per36 of 8.3 points on .349% TS%, 3.7 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 0.0 steals.

So they are pretty comparable in my book.

Year 1 -

Harden age 20, 14 PER, .124 WS/48

THJr age 21, 12.7 PER, .080 WS/48

Year 2 -

Harden age 21, 16.4 PER, .156 WS/48

THJr age 22, 12.1 PER, .023 WS/48

Year 3 -

Harden age 22, 21 PER, .230 WS/48

THJr age 23, 11.7 PER, .105 WS/48

 

These guys should not be in the same conversation.

[Bankingitbig]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Their per 36 numbers are comparable in pp36.  Every other stat Harden basically doubles THJr's numbers (steals, blocks, rebounds, assists, etc. per 36).

By their third season, Harden was putting up a 21 PER while THJr managed a career low 11.7 PER.  In the playoffs, Harden averaged a per 36 18.6 points, on .605% TS% 5.8 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 1.8 steals compared to THJr's per36 of 8.3 points on .349% TS%, 3.7 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 0.0 steals.

So they are pretty comparable in my book.

Year 1 -

Harden age 20, 14 PER, .124 WS/48

THJr age 21, 12.7 PER, .080 WS/48

Year 2 -

Harden age 21, 16.4 PER, .156 WS/48

THJr age 22, 12.1 PER, .023 WS/48

Year 3 -

Harden age 22, 21 PER, .230 WS/48

THJr age 23, 11.7 PER, .105 WS/48

 

These guys should not be in the same conversation.

I agree that they are not in the same conversation, especially now. But I think you can still compare their first 2 seasons somewhat (though I agree THJ is still inferior). I believe win shares is calculated based on the team wins and performance and then trying to attribute it to the individual players, but I could be wrong. Thus, I don't think its fair to compared Harden's WS on OKC's team to THJ's on the Knicks. Also, as I said I believe THJ's third year is a wash, as Bud was more focused on developing him and making him learn the system than playing him. I felt like he had a pretty short leash.

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Bankingitbig said:

I agree that they are not in the same conversation, especially now. But I think you can still compare their first 2 seasons somewhat (though I agree THJ is still inferior). I believe win shares is calculated based on the team wins and performance and then trying to attribute it to the individual players, but I could be wrong. Thus, I don't think its fair to compared Harden's WS on OKC's team to THJ's on the Knicks. Also, as I said I believe THJ's third year is a wash, as Bud was more focused on developing him and making him learn the system than playing him. I felt like he had a pretty short leash.

Per 36 those first two seasons:

Harden 4.7 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.6 steals, 0.4 blocks

THJr 2.8 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 0.6 steals, 0.2 blocks

And Harden was a year younger.  They weren't in the same conversation then either which is why Harden was traded for Kevin Martin, rights to a lottery pick from that year's draft, another lottery pick used to take Steven Adams and another 1st round pick (plus a second).  Houston got the better end of that exchange even with that price tag.

The Hawks traded down then dealt their first and still overpaid.  The Knicks were surprised and thrilled to get more than a good second rounder for him.

(On win shares, look it however you want.  THJr was 12th on that putrid Knicks roster his second year behind luminaries like Shane Larkin and Langston Galloway while Harden was 4th on the Thunder his second year behind only Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka). 

Use whatever metric you want: raw stats, same age comparisons, per minute comparisons, trade value, and they are clearly not in the same conversation at any point in their career.

[Bankingitbig]

Again I am not saying that THJ will ever become Harden. But I think a case can be made for how Harden developed from those first two season to his third and how THJ can develop with somewhat competent development coaching like what Harden got with OKC.