The Tank Thread

[KB21]

It's not hate.  It's reality.  The reality about Dennis is that he should be a lot better than what he is.  He is a defensive liability mostly due to his lack of effort on that end.  He's also a very inefficient, high usage player, and those types do not have much value outside of fans looking at their counting stats and thinking that it means they are very good.  The same thing goes for fans who think Andrew Wiggins is good.  

[deester11]

17 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

But there are others like Brad Rowland and posters on this board that hate Dennis more they hated Jeff Teague...Why ?

He doesn't fit what people want.  I think he's  doing what he is asked to do but has regressed defensively while carrying the burden of generating offense.  He IS NOT selfish no matter what that agenda is about.  I'm a Dennis fan and hope he's here long term but I'm not betting on it.  He's enigmatic I guess.

Edited March 22, 2018 by deester11

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

It's not hate.  It's reality.  The reality about Dennis is that he should be a lot better than what he is.  He is a defensive liability mostly due to his lack of effort on that end.  He's also a very inefficient, high usage player, and those types do not have much value outside of fans looking at their counting stats and thinking that it means they are very good.  The same thing goes for fans who think Andrew Wiggins is good.  

So you don't think that he will improve?  Especially with better players around him?

[Diesel]

Just now, deester11 said:

He doesn't fit what people want.  I think he doing what he is asked to do but has regressed defensively while carrying the burden of generating offense.  He IS NOT selfish no matter what that agenda is about.  I'm a Dennis fan and hope he's here long term but I'm not getting on it.  He's enigmatic I guess.

You just may be biased.   However when you sit back and watch him play, Dennis uses the offensive scheme and all other players to HIS benefit.  He have moments where he will play the team game and look good but most of the time, you see him maneuvering people to do what he wants to do and it has been that way since we first got him.  He is a pick and roll specialist and has also like to be the guy who scores. 

 

[AHF]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

So you don't think that he will improve?  Especially with better players around him?

For me, the two things that are key to his development are defense and 3pt shooting.  Better players may help mask his D and may give him some better looks, but both of these will be fundamentally driven by him.

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

So you don't think that he will improve?  Especially with better players around him?

He has had many good players around him before and has managed to make them look bad.   He's not on track to improve.   It's been a while now.   It's not his skillset, it's his mentality.   It's not changing.  That's why nobody will touch him in a trade.  

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, deester11 said:

He doesn't fit what people want.  I think he doing what he is asked to do but has regressed defensively while carrying the burden of generating offense.  He IS NOT selfish no matter what that agenda is about.  I'm a Dennis fan and hope he's here long term but I'm not betting on it.  He's enigmatic I guess.

I mean the guy was just dominant in that last game...Denver could not stop him despite him being the only productive offensive player on the floor for the Hawks...What more do people want from a player???

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

For me, the two things that are key to his development are defense and 3pt shooting.  Better players may help mask his D and may give him some better looks, but both of these will be fundamentally driven by him.

Did y'all consider Tony Parker a good point guard?  what about Kyle Lowry?  Kemba?  Go and look at their 4th year stats

[Diesel]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

I mean the guy was just dominant in that last game...Denver could not stop him despite him being the only productive offensive player on the floor for the Hawks...What more do people want from a player???

What do you want??

Many of the people who are not big fans of Dennis are probably fans of how we played during the 60 win season.   The ball moved and did not stop at the PG and get dribbled to death before the PG decided to call his own number.  Dennis = Poor man's Derrick Rose.  Derrick Rose did win an MVP but he didn't defend well and he didn't really run an offense.  He was hidden on defense by his coaches defense (until Teague dismantled him in the playoffs).  He was given the free reign to Stephen Marbury on offense. 

 

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

He has had many good players around him before and has managed to make them look bad.   He's not on track to improve.   It's been a while now.   It's not his skillset, it's his mentality.   It's not changing.  That's why nobody will touch him in a trade.  

Do some homework and look at other point guard stats in their 4th year

[deester11]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

I mean the guy was just dominant in that last game...Denver could not stop him despite him being the only productive offensive player on the floor for the Hawks...What more do people want from a player???

It may be my bias, but he's at least better than half the posters give him credit for.  Once someone has their knock, it's easy for the posse to form and offer the loudest opinions.  I think of myself as a neutral type but I have my thoughts.  I will say Diesel is right when he's says it is about effort with Dennis.  When he focused he's deadly.  He could go for 20/20 and someone will complain about his lack of 21 assists versus the crappy 20 assists. 

[Peoriabird]

Just now, Diesel said:

What do you want??

Many of the people who are not big fans of Dennis are probably fans of how we played during the 60 win season.   The ball moved and did not stop at the PG and get dribbled to death before the PG decided to call his own number.  Dennis = Poor man's Derrick Rose.  Derrick Rose did win an MVP but he didn't defend well and he didn't really run an offense.  He was hidden on defense by his coaches defense (until Teague dismantled him in the playoffs).  He was given the free reign to Stephen Marbury on offense. 

 

Now I get it. Y'all are not saying that its not that he isn't a good player but he is too ball dominant for your taste but yet you want to draft Trey Young or Collin Sexton?  Please explain

[davis171]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

Now I get it. Y'all are not saying that its not that he isn't a good player but he is too ball dominant for your taste but yet you want to draft Trey Young or Collin Sexton?  Please explain

Unless we draft Doncic I'm okay with Dennis being around.

[Peoriabird]

Just now, davis171 said:

Unless we draft Doncic I'm okay with Dennis being around.

So you truly think that Dennis is deciding to be this ball dominate on his own and the coaching staff has not encouraged him at all?  And if we get another player that can handle the point, he can't play more off the ball?

[Diesel]

9 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Do some homework and look at other point guard stats in their 4th year

4th year?  He's in his 5th.

<PRE>                                                                                                                                             
Rk            Player  Season Age  G   MP  PER  TS% 3PAr  FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV%  USG% OWS DWS  WS   WS/48 OBPM DBPM  BPM VORP
1         Kyle Lowry 2010-11  24 75 2563 16.5 .550 .424 .310  3.9  9.7  6.8 29.4  2.0  0.6 14.7  18.6 5.1 1.8 7.0    .130  3.1 -0.4  2.7  3.0
2        Tony Parker 2005-06  23 80 2715 20.8 .584 .032 .315  1.7  9.5  5.7 32.2  1.7  0.1 16.1  27.1 5.5 4.1 9.6    .169  2.6  0.0  2.6  3.1
3    Dennis Schröder 2017-18  24 66 2049 17.4 .516 .229 .233  2.4  8.9  5.6 36.1  1.7  0.3 12.6  30.4 1.7 1.0 2.7    .063  1.5 -2.3 -0.8  0.6
4       Kemba Walker 2015-16  25 81 2885 20.8 .554 .368 .329  2.1 11.5  6.8 25.7  2.2  1.1 10.1  26.5 6.3 3.6 9.9    .165  4.0  0.0  4.0  4.4
</PRE>

 

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

4th year?  He's in his 5th.

[table]
[thead][tr][th]Rk[/th][th]Player[/th][th]Season[/th][th]Age[/th][th]G[/th][th]MP[/th][th]PER[/th][th]TS%[/th][th]3PAr[/th][th]FTr[/th][th]ORB%[/th][th]DRB%[/th][th]TRB%[/th][th]AST%[/th][th]STL%[/th][th]BLK%[/th][th]TOV%[/th][th]USG%[/th][th][/th][th]OWS[/th][th]DWS[/th][th]WS[/th][th]WS/48[/th][th][/th][th]OBPM[/th][th]DBPM[/th][th]BPM[/th][th]VORP[/th][/tr][/thead]
[tr][td]1[/td][td]Kyle Lowry[/td][td]2010-11[/td][td]24[/td][td]75[/td][td]2563[/td][td]16.5[/td][td].550[/td][td].424[/td][td].310[/td][td]3.9[/td][td]9.7[/td][td]6.8[/td][td]29.4[/td][td]2.0[/td][td]0.6[/td][td]14.7[/td][td]18.6[/td][td][/td][td]5.1[/td][td]1.8[/td][td]7.0[/td][td].130[/td][td][/td][td]3.1[/td][td]-0.4[/td][td]2.7[/td][td]3.0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2[/td][td]Tony Parker[/td][td]2005-06[/td][td]23[/td][td]80[/td][td]2715[/td][td]20.8[/td][td].584[/td][td].032[/td][td].315[/td][td]1.7[/td][td]9.5[/td][td]5.7[/td][td]32.2[/td][td]1.7[/td][td]0.1[/td][td]16.1[/td][td]27.1[/td][td][/td][td]5.5[/td][td]4.1[/td][td]9.6[/td][td].169[/td][td][/td][td]2.6[/td][td]0.0[/td][td]2.6[/td][td]3.1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td]Dennis Schröder[/td][td]2017-18[/td][td]24[/td][td]66[/td][td]2049[/td][td]17.4[/td][td].516[/td][td].229[/td][td].233[/td][td]2.4[/td][td]8.9[/td][td]5.6[/td][td]36.1[/td][td]1.7[/td][td]0.3[/td][td]12.6[/td][td]30.4[/td][td][/td][td]1.7[/td][td]1.0[/td][td]2.7[/td][td].063[/td][td][/td][td]1.5[/td][td]-2.3[/td][td]-0.8[/td][td]0.6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4[/td][td]Kemba Walker[/td][td]2015-16[/td][td]25[/td][td]81[/td][td]2885[/td][td]20.8[/td][td].554[/td][td].368[/td][td].329[/td][td]2.1[/td][td]11.5[/td][td]6.8[/td][td]25.7[/td][td]2.2[/td][td]1.1[/td][td]10.1[/td][td]26.5[/td][td][/td][td]6.3[/td][td]3.6[/td][td]9.9[/td][td].165[/td][td][/td][td]4.0[/td][td]0.0[/td][td]4.0[/td][td]4.4[/td][/tr]
[/table]

Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 3/22/2018.

 

Compare their 4th years because Dennis has not allstars on his team like the other players I mentioned

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Now I get it. Y'all are not saying that its not that he isn't a good player but he is too ball dominant for your taste but yet you want to draft Trey Young or Collin Sexton?  Please explain

Ball Dominant meaning does nothing without the ball.   Yes.   However,  I want us to draft the best player available and build a quality team with that player.   I don't know about Trey Young.   I have liked what I have seen in Sexton. 

[davis171]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

So you truly think that Dennis is deciding to be this ball dominate on his own and the coaching staff has not encouraged him at all?  And if we get another player that can handle the point, he can't play more off the ball?

No I just would want a George Hillesk PG to run next to him. I think a guy that also can play off ball would be better suited and that is definitely one of Dennis's weaknesses due to his lack of 3pt shooting. Doncic isn't knockdown, Schröder is below 30% on the season, and Collins is a work in progress for sure. 3pt shooting is a must in this league and that's a 3pt deficient lineup. 

[Peoriabird]

Just now, Diesel said:

Ball Dominant meaning does nothing without the ball.   Yes.   However,  I want us to draft the best player available and build a quality team with that player.   I don't know about Trey Young.   I have liked what I have seen in Sexton. 

He is ball dominant too from i've seen! Some don't even consider him a pure point guard

[KB21]

29 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So you don't think that he will improve?  Especially with better players around him?

I think he is what he is at this point.  He's had 5 years in the league, and he is generally around a 51% TS% player with a negative impact defensively.