The Tank Thread

[KB21]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

There is this guy that comes on That Brad Rowland locked on Hawks podcast...something Siegal...He thinks that Collin's ceiling is a back up power forward in the NBA

If he doesn't improve defensively and doesn't extend his range, that may be the case.

[Peoriabird]

17 minutes ago, KB21 said:

If he doesn't improve defensively and doesn't extend his range, that may be the case.

You were just suggested that the Hawks should draft a fit with Collins like Collins is considered a center piece of the team...Now you are saying there is a possibility that he doesn't start in the future???  I hope someone understand you because I sure as Heck don't

[KB21]

12 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

You were just suggesting should draft a fit with Collins like Collins is considered a center piece of the team...Now you are saying there is a possibility that he doesn't start in the future???  I hope someone understand you because I sure as Heck don't

Yes.  That is what I'm saying.  The Hawks have put themselves into a position where they have to play him, so you might as well try to maximize him.  However, if he doesn't improve his range and defense, he may very well top out as a 6th man type of player long term.  

[AHF]

28 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

There is this guy that comes on That Brad Rowland locked on Hawks podcast...something Siegal...He thinks that Collin's ceiling is a back up power forward in the NBA

I see that is super unlikely.  He will improve given that he is only a rookie but with his scoring efficiency and per36 of 16 pt, 11 rb, 2 ast, 2 blk I see him getting more minutes in the future not less.  He can play and is already very productive in his time on the floor.  What else do you want in a rookie taken at #17?  He leads the Hawks in PER, WS, WS/48, VORP and BPM and by a large margin in every area.  Definite future starter in my eyes.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Yes.  That is what I'm saying.  The Hawks have put themselves into a position where they have to play him, so you might as well try to maximize him.  However, if he doesn't improve his range and defense, he may very well top out as a 6th man type of player long term.  

So why not draft the best player available if that is the case

[KB21]

I should add that I do believe John is a future starter in the NBA, but I also think you must put a strong defensive big next to him.

[KB21]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

So why not draft the best player available if that is the case

Because one of the guys who you are going to consider as BPA is a guy who has the very same issues as John Collins - limited perimeter ability/limited defense and same strengths - athleticism, second jump, rebounding, scoring near the basket.  To be quite honest, John Collins has shown to be a more capable defender at this point than the guy who you are going to consider to be BPA.

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

I see that is super unlikely.  He will improve given that he is only a rookie but with his scoring efficiency and per36 of 16 pt, 11 rb, 2 ast, 2 blk I see him getting more minutes in the future not less.  He can play and is already very productive in his time on the floor.  What else do you want in a rookie taken at #17?  He leads the Hawks in PER, WS, WS/48, VORP and BPM and by a large margin in every area.  Definite future starter in my eyes.

I scratch my head when i listen to those clowns

[buckyboy2]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Not sure it is Sap so much as Denver had a good team and now he is finally contributing which is helping them.  They would have been better off adding a different FA this offseason than Sap.  Trey Lyles basically = Sap this season.  Both are useful pieces that help their team but you expect the guy earning $31M to have more WS than the guy earning $2.4M.

EXactly..

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Because one of the guys who you are going to consider as BPA is a guy who has the very same issues as John Collins - limited perimeter ability/limited defense and same strengths - athleticism, second jump, rebounding, scoring near the basket.  To be quite honest, John Collins has shown to be a more capable defender at this point than the guy who you are going to consider to be BPA.

I would mind 2 Collins out there!  You seem to think its a negative!  LOL!

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I should add that I do believe John is a future starter in the NBA, but I also think you must put a strong defensive big next to him.

While JJJ's relative lack of production worries me, I do like his fit next to Collins a lot.  Love the rim protector next to Collins and love JJJ's range as a big who won't need to occupy the same space on the floor with Collins (even though I think Collins will successfully extend his range over time).  I have some question whether either guy can really match up against large or strong centers but the fit is a ton easier for me to see than with Bagley.

[CBAreject]

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

Correction.  They gutted a good roster, and they now have an awful roster thanks to Travis Schlenk.  And it will continue to be awful for years.

That was a ghastly, below average roster that was totally maxed out in player development and salary.  Ew.  It makes me shudder to think of it.  The stink of it still hangs over us with Bazemore’s obscene contract.  

[KB21]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

I would mind 2 Collins out there

It won't work with two of the same type out there.  They would get into each other's way, and the spacing and interior defense would be horrific.

Just now, CBAreject said:

That was a ghastly, below average roster that was totally maxed out in player development and salary.  Ew.  It makes me shudder to think of it.  The stink of it still hangs over us with Bazemore’s obscene contract.  

Correction again.  What you see out there right now is a ghastly roster.  The worst in the NBA by far.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

While JJJ's relative lack of production worries me, I do like his fit next to Collins a lot.  Love the rim protector next to Collins and love his range as a big who won't need to occupy the same space on the floor with him (even though I think Collins will successfully extend his range over time).  I have some question whether either guy can really match up against large or strong centers but the fit is a ton easier for me to see than with Bagley.

That is if he is a true rim protector and not a foul machine like he was the latter part of his 1st year...Does he have a mid range and can he get that wind up 3 off in the NBA if not wide open?

[AHF]

Just now, KB21 said:

It won't work with two of the same type out there.  They would get into each other's way, and the spacing and interior defense would be horrific.

I share that worry with Bagley.  It is tough for me to see how the team functions successfully on both ends of the floor with the two of them at PF/C.  Frankly, the worry is more on the defensive side since I could see both Bagley and Collins developing more range and being able to switch back and forth from perimeter to the paint but I can't see a scenario where they match up on D successfully.  Same worry I have with the idea of Julius Randle.  

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

It won't work with two of the same type out there.  They would get into each other's way, and the spacing and interior defense would be horrific.

You just continue to amaze me with you assumptions that Collins will be the exact same player 2 years from that he is now... It's unbelievable

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

I share that worry with Bagley.  It is tough for me to see how the team functions successfully on both ends of the floor with the two of them at PF/C.  Frankly, the worry is more on the defensive side since I could see both Bagley and Collins developing more range and being able to switch back and forth from perimeter to the paint but I can't see a scenario where they match up on D successfully.  Same worry I have with the idea of Julius Randle.  

Collins has made tremendous progress on defense this year and that progress won't just suddenly stop at 20...Same with Bagley.  Both have all of the tools to be pretty good interior and perimeter defenders...Just need to develop like all freshman from college do...No one has come into the pros as a finished product

[KB21]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I share that worry with Bagley.  It is tough for me to see how the team functions successfully on both ends of the floor with the two of them at PF/C.  Frankly, the worry is more on the defensive side since I could see both Bagley and Collins developing more range and being able to switch back and forth from perimeter to the paint but I can't see a scenario where they match up on D successfully.  Same worry I have with the idea of Julius Randle.  

That's why I like Wendell Carter Jr more for the Hawks.  I think he's a better floor spacer and defender than Bagley.  There's a lot of Al Horford to Carter's game.

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

That's why I like Wendell Carter Jr more for the Hawks.  I think he's a better floor spacer and defender than Bagley.  There's a lot of Al Horford to Carter's game.

Wendell Carter is not a lottery talent

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Collins has made tremendous progress on defense this year and that progress won't just suddenly stop at 20...Same with Bagley.  Both have all of the tools to be pretty good interior and perimeter defenders...Just need to develop like all freshman from college do...No one has come into the pros as a finished product

I fully expect Collins to continue to develop.  Fully expect his positioning and strength to improve.  Expect his range on shots will improve.  But at the end of the day neither Collins nor Bagley profiles as having good rim protection tools.  It is a liability they both share from a tools perspective.  I see a much clearer path to Collins and Bagley working together successfully on offense than I do on D.