Question of the Day... 3-6....

[Diesel]

This question is an experiment in Thought... I want you to see something...

 

Why isn't Tim Duncan ever considered for the title of GOAT??

 

He is a five-time NBA champion, a two-time NBA MVP, a three-time NBA Finals MVP, a 15-time NBA All-Star, and the only player to be selected to both the All-NBA and All-Defensive Teams for 13 consecutive seasons.

 

Here's the nugget...  Lebron has controlled the media so well that he has made it so that you ignore people who have a legitimate claim for GOAT by continually saying he's the GOAT. 

 

[Guest]

Tim Duncan, like Dirk, wasn't particularly "flashy" which it what seems to attract attention over the last 20 years or so.  
Same with Karl Malone (although he definitely has his own baggage).
Great stats and awards for these three, but they were "simply" steady and played a long time.  
That would be my layman's conjecture.  

[AHF]

36 minutes ago, LongTimeFan said:

Tim Duncan, like Dirk, wasn't particularly "flashy" which it what seems to attract attention over the last 20 years or so.  
Same with Karl Malone (although he definitely has his own baggage).
Great stats and awards for these three, but they were "simply" steady and played a long time.  
That would be my layman's conjecture.  

Agree.  He never put up absolute dominating seasons like MJ, LeBron, and Kareem (let alone Wilt, etc.).  His teams were contenders every year but had less consistent results than the other contenders:

The Spurs lost 4 times in the first round and 6 times in the second round during his run.  That meant a lot of great playoff runs were followed by duds the next year.  (Won a ring in 99!  Lost in the first round in 00.  Won rings in 03 and 05!  Lost in the second round the following seasons.  etc.)

I think the combination of lack of individually overpowering stats (19 ppg career average and only more than 23ppg once for example) and the playoff inconsistency is what keeps him out of the conversation when you have a guy like MJ that you need to be contending against who had absolutely dominating numbers and that 6 year run where he won every championship when he played a full season (the two in the middle he didn't play the first at all and only played 17 late season games in the second).

[Diesel]

27 minutes ago, AHF said:

Agree.  He never put up absolute dominating seasons like MJ, LeBron, and Kareem (let alone Wilt, etc.).  His teams were contenders every year but had less consistent results than the other contenders:

The Spurs lost 4 times in the first round and 6 times in the second round during his run.  That meant a lot of great playoff runs were followed by duds the next year.  (Won a ring in 99!  Lost in the first round in 00.  Won rings in 03 and 05!  Lost in the second round the following seasons.  etc.)

I think the combination of lack of individually overpowering stats (19 ppg career average and only more than 23ppg once for example) and the playoff inconsistency is what keeps him out of the conversation when you have a guy like MJ that you need to be contending against who had absolutely dominating numbers and that 6 year run where he won every championship when he played a full season (the two in the middle he didn't play the first at all and only played 17 late season games in the second).

Not exactly apples to apple though right.   MJ.. I do consider him the goat but 3 1st round exits.  1 2nd round exit and  2  no playoffs...  Bron... Lost three times in the 2nd round.. and thus far lost in the first round and 2 times didn't make the playoffs.  Kobe... Lost three times in the 1st round and 2 times didn't make the playoffs. 

The other thing.. Duncan beat Lebron in the finals a few times... and had to go through Kobe to get there. 

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Probably because most of the GOAT's in the conversation were high volume scorers.  Duncan isn't in that category.

 

Only scored more than 25 ppg in a season one time.  His all around stats are fantastic, but the GOATs in the conversation are normally high level scorers.

[Diesel]

21 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Probably because most of the GOAT's in the conversation were high volume scorers.  Duncan isn't in that category.

 

Only scored more than 25 ppg in a season one time.  His all around stats are fantastic, but the GOATs in the conversation are normally high level scorers.

Distilled out.. The GOAT conversation is simply about scoring. 

Winning Chips is not it.. Russell. 

Longevity is not it...  Lebron, Malone, Kareem. 

Just scoring:  MJ, Wilt, Elgin... and   DURANT??

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

43 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Distilled out.. The GOAT conversation is simply about scoring. 

Winning Chips is not it.. Russell. 

Longevity is not it...  Lebron, Malone, Kareem. 

Just scoring:  MJ, Wilt, Elgin... and   DURANT??

 

 

 

Lebron, Malone, and Kareem were high level scorers.

It's a reason why 97% of the players that score 20,000 points makes it into the Hall of Fame.  Only Antawn Jamison and Tom Chambers aren't in the Hall of Fame that scored 20K in their career. 

Joe Johnson has 20,407 points with no championships, no 2nd team All-NBA selections, and no conference finals appearances.

But he probably gets in because he's known as being clutch, and he scored 20,000 points in his career.  Maybe not 1st ballot, but he gets in.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Lebron, Malone, and Kareem were high level scorers.

It's a reason why 97% of the players that score 20,000 points makes it into the Hall of Fame.  Only Antawn Jamison and Tom Chambers aren't in the Hall of Fame that scored 20K in their career. 

Joe Johnson has 20,407 points with no championships, no 2nd team All-NBA selections, and no conference finals appearances.

But he probably gets in because he's known as being clutch, and he scored 20,000 points in his career.  Maybe not 1st ballot, but he gets in.

Shame about Tom Chambers.   That dude was good. 

Again the total points vs. ppg.. I think PPG tells you more.  But in this case, PPG is used against Duncan who excelled just about everywhere.

 

 

[AHF]

17 hours ago, Diesel said:

Shame about Tom Chambers.   That dude was good. 

Again the total points vs. ppg.. I think PPG tells you more.  But in this case, PPG is used against Duncan who excelled just about everywhere.

 

 

I don't think it is all about scoring but it is an important part of the conversation.  Anyone who has been on this site for a while knows I'm a big Duncan fan so that isn't a shot from me.  But if he has to make a case for being better than MJ, Kareem, etc. that is made much tougher given how much more explosive both of them were as scorers at their peaks compared to Duncan.  Duncan was a steady 20+ but his handful of seasons where he was top 10 in PPG just don't jump off the page:  6th with 21.7 ppg, 9th with 23.2 ppg, 5th with 25.5 ppg, 7th with 23.3 ppg, and 8th with 22.3 ppg.

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

I don't think it is all about scoring but it is an important part of the conversation.  Anyone who has been on this site for a while knows I'm a big Duncan fan so that isn't a shot from me.  But if he has to make a case for being better than MJ, Kareem, etc. that is made much tougher given how much more explosive both of them were as scorers at their peaks compared to Duncan.  Duncan was a steady 20+ but his handful of seasons where he was top 10 in PPG just don't jump off the page:  6th with 21.7 ppg, 9th with 23.2 ppg, 5th with 25.5 ppg, 7th with 23.3 ppg, and 8th with 22.3 ppg.

I think where Duncan does compare is 2 way player/winner.   He had to share the court with a selfish guy named Parker in a scheme that doesn't really call for high PPG guys.  But you cannot deny his dominance.  All the guys that are called Superstars have stories of how Duncan would dominate.  

But if it whittles down to PPG... then Jordan will always stay the Goat.   He averaged 30.1 ppg.. up there with Wilt.