If the Hawks do this, they will win games 3 and 4...

[Diesel]

First... Let me say that our players will shoot better because we are at home.   Their shooters will not be as good.  Our shooting has been horrific and it is the reason our offensive spacing is irrelevant.   We haven't been able to do anything inside because of our shooting. 

So here's the fix... that will help us to win games 3 and 4..

1. Start Bogi and leave Clint on the bench...

Why?  We need to make them respect our shooters.  Bogi is once again over 40% from outside.  We don't need that scoring off the bench... we need that scoring to start the game.   We need good shooting to make them respect our spacing. 

1.  Plant JC in the post.   NO Outside for you....

Yes, I would start JC over OO and here's why...   JC has a grown man's post game.  We need that.  IF he's not giving that then sit him next to Clint.  Once we have established our shooting from outside... let JC eat... not the other way around.  Boston doesn't respect us.

1. Run the offense through DJ...

Take the focus off of Trae.  That means that Trae has to be able to play off ball.  But DJ needs to handle the ball.   None of that tricky dribble shit.  Spurs offense.... Come up.. either pass or shot but do it within 7 seconds.   That means also that we have to move on offense. Whether the ball comes to JC or not, JC has to be setting up to back to the basket post up somebody. 

1. First Substitution is OO for JC & AHoli for Trae.

I know AHoli hasn't been a part of the divine 9... but he should be.  He can handle the ball and he's a bulldog on defense.  I would let AHoli know that he has limited time and he should play his minutes and give everything he has...

1. When you do bring Trae back, bring him back and exchange out OO for Cap...and Run JJ at PF with Bey at the 3 and Griff at the 2. 

The young Bull lineup.  I know that Griff's defense is not ready yet.   Shit, can't be worse than what we've had out there.   Griff has good size to matchup with those guys we are facing plus he can hit the three.   This young Bull lineup can close out the 2nd or play the middle of the 3rd.   Why play Cap here?  Because JJ is dynamic.  He doesn't need to get his scores in the post... plus JJ is really a secondary ball handler who knows how to feed the post. 

So rotation.. we're good.

Defense...  Fire Lamborghdi...  today...

• Play a matchup zone.  No switching.  Get up in your man.  JC, OO, and CC you have one job...  CLOSE DOWN THE PAINT.
• Really a matchup zone diamond and one...  Keep somebody on Horf at all times... but not the C.   Horf is the 2nd best 3pt shooter in the league.  He is that because people ignore him and his teammates look for him.  But Horf is hitting 3s when he has a wide open look.  He doesn't look to shoot them when somebody is on him.  So keep somebody on him. 
• When Horf goes out, the zone changes... the rover (Horf's man) becomes a helper.  Why?   Williams III is not going to go outside to get scores.  He's going  to set pics and roll to the inside.  Again JC, OO, CC.. your job is to shut down the paint.  When we change the zone, you get help.

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

Spurs offense is a motion offense. We can't play that with Trae on the court 

If we want to win. We need to make smart decisions. Limit turnovers. Only play overaggressive on boards. Overaggressiveness against Boston will get you backdoored to death. 

We just need to execute. 

But we need Trae to make his f***ing shots

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Spurs offense is a motion offense. We can't play that with Trae on the court 

If we want to win. We need to make smart decisions. Limit turnovers. Only play overaggressive on boards. Overaggressiveness against Boston will get you backdoored to death. 

We just need to execute. 

But we need Trae to make his f***ing shots

I said like Spurs offense in only one way....

Make quick decisions and everybody is moving.   Yeah, we need some motion and Trae can play Motion, especially if he is off ball. 

Shots will fall in Atlanta.  We will get an automatic bump because our others will hit shots and their others won't hit as many as they been hitting.   That's just nature. 

So we will see improvement in Bey, JC, and Trae from a shooting standpoint...  And White and Smart won't hit so high of a percentage unless we keep letting them have layups. 

 

[NBASupes]

Just now, Diesel said:

I said like Spurs offense in only one way....

Make quick decisions and everybody is moving.   Yeah, we need some motion and Trae can play Motion, especially if he is off ball. 

Shots will fall in Atlanta.  We will get an automatic bump because our others will hit shots and their others won't hit as many as they been hitting.   That's just nature. 

So we will see improvement in Bey, JC, and Trae from a shooting standpoint...  And White and Smart won't hit so high of a percentage unless we keep letting them have layups. 

 

Do you understand why everyone is moving? It's because they are capable of movement and don't dominate the rock. Trae game is ball dominance. He doesn't add any value off the ball. He doesn't even draw the attention he used to because his shooting isn't moving defenders and at this level, we are going against teams who are terrific at recovery in space. 

It's like, you don't get it. You can't force movement. Guys have to be capable. It's a skillset. On the top of that, you gotta have spacing. Teams will just sit on actions. Actions are only effective if they respect your capabilities to make us pay. 

Bey is struggling like Kevin is in the playoffs. You aren't gonna get many open looks when teams know you are lights out at them

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Do you understand why everyone is moving? It's because they are capable of movement and don't dominate the rock. Trae game is ball dominance. He doesn't add any value off the ball. He doesn't even draw the attention he used to because his shooting isn't moving defenders and at this level, we are going against teams who are terrific at recovery in space. 

It's like, you don't get it. You can't force movement. Guys have to be capable. It's a skillset. On the top of that, you gotta have spacing. Teams will just sit on actions. Actions are only effective if they respect your capabilities to make us pay. 

Bey is struggling like Kevin is in the playoffs. You aren't gonna get many open looks when teams know you are lights out at them

Well, again..

Trae.. Off ball.  Dj Has the ball and making quick decisions. 

Trae is one of our best set shot shooters.   If he can come off ball and get open in his spot good.  It's harder for him to do when he's covered by 6'5" Derrick White and he has RWIII roaming the post.   As a ball handler, Trae is not going to lose white or smart or anybody else.   They scramble well..  BUt that's only on the ball.   They have a strong POA defense.   BUT as DJ showed, they care a little less about players off the ball. 

If DJ can get open three point shots on the small amount of movement he was doing then the shots are out there. 

As far as Sitting in Action, that's what Boston is doing now.. Did you read anything I said?   The movement is not about Boston Moving, I expect them to stay back.. The movement is to maneovur our guys to their spots. 

As far as Bey Goes, he's just missing open shots.   A lot of our guys are.  Home cooking will help that. 

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

Well, again..

Trae.. Off ball.  Dj Has the ball and making quick decisions. 

Trae is one of our best set shot shooters.   If he can come off ball and get open in his spot good.  It's harder for him to do when he's covered by 6'5" Derrick White and he has RWIII roaming the post.   As a ball handler, Trae is not going to lose white or smart or anybody else.   They scramble well..  BUt that's only on the ball.   They have a strong POA defense.   BUT as DJ showed, they care a little less about players off the ball. 

If DJ can get open three point shots on the small amount of movement he was doing then the shots are out there. 

As far as Sitting in Action, that's what Boston is doing now.. Did you read anything I said?   The movement is not about Boston Moving, I expect them to stay back.. The movement is to maneovur our guys to their spots. 

As far as Bey Goes, he's just missing open shots.   A lot of our guys are.  Home cooking will help that. 

 

 

 

Trae adds no value off the ball. Having him off the ball doesn't mean we can run a motion offense. 

[shakes]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Well, again..

Trae.. Off ball.  Dj Has the ball and making quick decisions. 

Trae is one of our best set shot shooters.   If he can come off ball and get open in his spot good.  It's harder for him to do when he's covered by 6'5" Derrick White and he has RWIII roaming the post.   As a ball handler, Trae is not going to lose white or smart or anybody else.   They scramble well..  BUt that's only on the ball.   They have a strong POA defense.   BUT as DJ showed, they care a little less about players off the ball. 

If DJ can get open three point shots on the small amount of movement he was doing then the shots are out there. 

As far as Sitting in Action, that's what Boston is doing now.. Did you read anything I said?   The movement is not about Boston Moving, I expect them to stay back.. The movement is to maneovur our guys to their spots. 

As far as Bey Goes, he's just missing open shots.   A lot of our guys are.  Home cooking will help that. 

 

 

 

Trae has already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is either incapable or unwilling to move without the ball.   It was the #1 issue facing him after the Miami series and he did NOTHING about it the entire off season.  Then the season started and I think he ran the baseline 2x and then basically said Fvck it and never did it again.   I would bet that Steph or Reggie Miller ran more off the ball in one possession than Trae has done in an entire season.

 

This team would be about 1000x better if Trae would commit to running his man ragged on EVERY POSSESSION he was off the ball, but he's proven this year that he won't do it.

[AHF]

Just now, shakes said:

Trae has already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is either incapable or unwilling to move without the ball.   It was the #1 issue facing him after the Miami series and he did NOTHING about it the entire off season.  Then the season started and I think he ran the baseline 2x and then basically said Fvck it and never did it again.   I would bet that Steph or Reggie Miller ran more off the ball in one possession than Trae has done in an entire season.

 

This team would be about 1000x better if Trae would commit to running his man ragged on EVERY POSSESSION he was off the ball, but he's proven this year that he won't do it.

Unwilling would suggest he was asked to do that.  I've never seen anything from Nate indicating he had a scheme for this season that included Trae moving off the ball.

I do assume nothing about Trae being a capable off the ball player, though.  He has been abysmal off the ball career to date and has shown no natural instincts around that.

This is one of the challenges facing Quin who I expect to have a different offensive system ready for next season.

[h4wkfan]

23 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Bey is struggling like Kevin is in the playoffs. You aren't gonna get many open looks when teams know you are lights out at them

Here are some numbers to dissect …

When the closest defender is within 4-6 feet / then 6+ feet (per nba.com), these guys are shooting from 3 (attempts per game) …

Bey: 50% (1 attempt) / 0% (2.5 attempts)

Collins: 50% (1) / 0% (3) 

Hunter: 33.3% (1.8) / 56.8% (3.2)

bogi: 50% (3) / 20% (2.5)

JJ: 0% / 0% (1.5)

Murray: 36.4% (5.5) / 25% (2)

trae: 0% (2) / 37.5% (4)

 
I’m not sure the issue is we are playing a defense that can recover at some elite level.  The issue is - Collins/Bey/Bogi/JJ/Murray are getting roughly 11.5 wide open (according to NBA.com) 3s a game and making 1 of those. What happens if we hit just 50% of the open looks? An extra 12+ points a game + we cut back on easy transition points given up on long rebound run outs. 
 

Almost 30% of our 3s taken so far have been wide open by someone not named trae or Hunter. We’ve made <10% of those. 

 

trae needs to stop being careless with turnovers like it’s a preseason game + try more on defense. But how about when he or Murray find you - the guys make open looks? Not asking to make contested fadeaways - no. Just make 50% of the gimme 3s we are supposed to. That could be the difference in a 7 game series and a sweep. 

let’s hope the role players find their footing at home like we frequently see in the playoffs. 

[NBASupes]

I watched the playback this morning. @Diesel, we did run a motion offense at times and even had spurts. When Trae was out of the game. 

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, shakes said:

Trae has already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is either incapable or unwilling to move without the ball.   It was the #1 issue facing him after the Miami series and he did NOTHING about it the entire off season.  Then the season started and I think he ran the baseline 2x and then basically said Fvck it and never did it again.   I would bet that Steph or Reggie Miller ran more off the ball in one possession than Trae has done in an entire season.

 

This team would be about 1000x better if Trae would commit to running his man ragged on EVERY POSSESSION he was off the ball, but he's proven this year that he won't do it.

It's a skill to move off the ball. Some guys just don't have it. John Wall never developed it and coaches tried. He just didn't have the feel for the game without the rock.

One of the knocks on Wall is you could never run a motion offense with him because he needed the rock too much and Wall wasn't a hold the ball specialist which Trae is. He at least moved the rock and understood ball movement. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by NBASupes

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It's a skill to move off the ball. Some guys just don't have it. John Wall never developed it and coaches tried. He just didn't have the feel for the game without the rock.

One of the knocks on Wall is you could never run a motion offense with him because he needed the rock too much and Wall wasn't a hold the ball specialist which Trae is. He at least moved the rock and understood ball movement. 

Wall also couldn't shoot a jumper worth a darn.  It is much, much easier to be valuable off the ball when teams have to respect your 3pt shot.  (Not disagreeing with you about Wall being terrible off the ball beyond that as well.)

[shakes]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

Unwilling would suggest he was asked to do that.  I've never seen anything from Nate indicating he had a scheme for this season that included Trae moving off the ball.

I do assume nothing about Trae being a capable off the ball player, though.  He has been abysmal off the ball career to date and has shown no natural instincts around that.

This is one of the challenges facing Quin who I expect to have a different offensive system ready for next season.

Agreed.  I think it's pretty obvious watching Trae over the years that his absolute best shooting skill is catch and shoot 3s.  he's as elite as they come in that department.    But he rarely gets them because of how abysmal he is off the ball.

I hope his poor shooting this year causes a light bulb to show up where Trae realizes that he might actually benefit from running his ass off when he is off the ball.      But I'm not holding out anymore hope.  I said the EXACT SAME THING last year after the Miami series.  And here we are again.

 

This alone is why I've come to realize that Trae isn't as smart of a player as I thought he was.  To me this seems as easy as ABC123.     And it's not jut about Trae getting open catch and shoot looks.  Even on possessions where he won't touch the ball, the constant movement of Trae would cause others to become WIDE OPEN because the D would be constantly shifting to adjust to Trae's movement.

 

 

It really is baffling how this can still be a thing with Trae.  The G-dam blueprint for how to do this successfully is on full display with Steph.

[shakes]

14 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It's a skill to move off the ball. Some guys just don't have it. John Wall never developed it and coaches tried. He just didn't have the feel for the game without the rock.

One of the knocks on Wall is you could never run a motion offense with him because he needed the rock too much and Wall wasn't a hold the ball specialist which Trae is. He at least moved the rock and understood ball movement. 

Definitely a skill, but I also think a big part of it is desire/effort.     Even if you don't have much skill at it, simply moving your feet and constantly relocating would cause havoc wtih the other team's defense.

[Diesel]

27 minutes ago, shakes said:

Trae has already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is either incapable or unwilling to move without the ball.   It was the #1 issue facing him after the Miami series and he did NOTHING about it the entire off season.  Then the season started and I think he ran the baseline 2x and then basically said Fvck it and never did it again.   I would bet that Steph or Reggie Miller ran more off the ball in one possession than Trae has done in an entire season.

All this is pre-Quin.

We have to erase most of the pre-Quin stuff.   Quin allowed some of the pre-Quin stuff to remain and we're seeing why it doesn't work. 

Quin spent this season getting Buy-in.  It's smart.  Part of that buy-in will afford the eradication of Iso.  Part of that buy-in will be Trae playing some off ball.   Don't  get me wrong, Trae is still our best PG and by a long way.   However, getting him the ball and letting him be a scorer on set shots is not a bad wrinkle.   It took 6 years and the right coach to get JT and JB to play harmoniously. 

 

 

[NBASupes]

Just now, Diesel said:

All this is pre-Quin.

We have to erase most of the pre-Quin stuff.   Quin allowed some of the pre-Quin stuff to remain and we're seeing why it doesn't work. 

Quin spent this season getting Buy-in.  It's smart.  Part of that buy-in will afford the eradication of Iso.  Part of that buy-in will be Trae playing some off ball.   Don't  get me wrong, Trae is still our best PG and by a long way.   However, getting him the ball and letting him be a scorer on set shots is not a bad wrinkle.   It took 6 years and the right coach to get JT and JB to play harmoniously. 

 

 

Lmaooo, Dre got bad hands, he can't dribble in traffic. That's not changing, with Quin, pre Quin, etc but with Trae. Just fire LP, that's pre Nate, that's Nates fault, pre Quin, with Quin, etc. It never stops.

[Diesel]

26 minutes ago, h4wkfan said:

But how about when he or Murray find you - the guys make open looks?

Very good points @h4wkfan.

It's part of what's been wrong. 

It's been hard to watch our guys miss wide open shots and Boston Making them just about every time.   Even Smart. 

 

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Lmaooo, Dre got bad hands, he can't dribble in traffic. That's not changing, with Quin, pre Quin, etc but with Trae. Just fire LP, that's pre Nate, that's Nates fault, pre Quin, with Quin, etc. It never stops.

 

Uhm... Supes..  Whenever Quin puts in his system, I'm sure that he will prepare for Roberto Duran... I mean Dre (if he is still with the team).  Still, we were not talking about Dre.. but so nice of you to bring him in...

 

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

Uhm... Supes..  Whenever Quin puts in his system, I'm sure that he will prepare for Roberto Duran... I mean Dre (if he is still with the team).  Still, we were not talking about Dre.. but so nice of you to bring him in...

 

Delusion. Ya'll got it on ten. 

[Diesel]

13 minutes ago, shakes said:

Agreed.  I think it's pretty obvious watching Trae over the years that his absolute best shooting skill is catch and shoot 3s.  he's as elite as they come in that department.    But he rarely gets them because of how abysmal he is off the ball.

He rarely gets them because he has the ball most of the time...

How can we talk about how "abysmal" his off the ball game is.. when we don't see him off the ball??  You, yourself mentioned... 2 Plays in 82 games.   AND NOW.. He's Abysmal?

1 car ran the light in 10 yrs of it being in use...   That light is a haven for light runners.