Question for the Day 5-11

[Diesel]

IF Trae were in LAL or NYK would he have made the All NBA Team this year?

 

[Diesel]

Trae put up 26.2, 10.2, and 3.0.   And led the league in total assists.  His team made the playoffs.   Beat Miami in the play in.  Faced a top seed and did not crumble.  He played through changing coaches and gave you 73 games. 

• 11th in the league in ppg. 
• 2nd in the league in apg 

Just for grins...

• Jokic is 18th in the league in ppg and 3rd in the league in apg. 
• Harden is Not in the top 20 in PPG and 1st in apg
• Embiid is 1st in the league in PPG and #49 in the league in apg.
• **SGA is 5th in the league in PPG and 30th in the league in apg.
• **Luka is 2nd in the league in ppg and 6th in the league in apg
• Steph is not top 20 in ppg and not top 20 in apg
• D Mitchell is 7th in the league in ppg and not in the top 20 in apg. 
• **D Lillard is 3rd in the league in ppg and 10th in the top 20  in apg
• D Fox is 14th  in the league in ppg and not in the top 20 in  apg

** - Team did not make the playoffs. 

I put all the ALl NBA teams in red.   As you look at the rankings, none of these All NBA team  Guards with the exception of Luka matchup favorably against Trae.   Lillard, SGA, and Luka didn't even make the playoffs.  The league puts out these things that say that Trae is Overrated right around the end of the season so that he does not get voted on for things like this. 

At the end of the day, this is just a popularity contest.   Steph is one of my favorite players but he is not top 20 in points or assists...   But he's second team ALL NBA guard.  His team didn't even do that well.   SGA had a good year for him.. but his team didn't make the play in..  Overall Trae is better.    He's just the flavor of the month because he got his scoring up.   Him and DFox needs to fight over MIP... but is he really more worthy?

 

 

 

[AHF]

I think the honest answer has to be "maybe."  Market bias is real and there are no guiding principles for what a player needs to do to get selected so the criteria seem to change year to year and player to player.  That said, I don't have any problem with him not making it this year based on his shooting %s.  Get those back up and he should be All-NBA again.

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think the honest answer has to be "maybe."  Market bias is real and there are no guiding principles for what a player needs to do to get selected so the criteria seem to change year to year and player to player.  That said, I don't have any problem with him not making it this year based on his shooting %s.  Get those back up and he should be All-NBA again.

Nah...

It's not a FG% award.   The truth is that there is no criteria... Only what the media feels.  Harden and Morant aren't on it because of how the media feels.   I think Trae being labelled a coach killer and considered most overrated by 8 NBA players has more to do with it than his FG%. 

It's a popularity contest.   A player can play hard, put up great numbers and not be considered. 

 

[AHF]

49 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Nah...

It's not a FG% award.   The truth is that there is no criteria... Only what the media feels.  Harden and Morant aren't on it because of how the media feels.   I think Trae being labelled a coach killer and considered most overrated by 8 NBA players has more to do with it than his FG%. 

It's a popularity contest.   A player can play hard, put up great numbers and not be considered. 

 

There is no doubt a huge "popularity" component for the player, the team he is on, etc.  By way of example, I think Luka merited All-NBA this year based on his play but if Trae Young had the exact season Luka just had I could see him getting left off because his team didn't make the playoffs or getting stuck on third team like Trae did last year.  It is popularity for Luka that ensures he will make first team even with a losing record and why Trae wasn't first team last year when his team did make the playoffs driven largely by Trae's exceptional regular season.

But from my personal view (i.e., one of the factors for me if I was voting), if you aren't shooting well then your scoring is empty numbers so the TS% makes a huge difference in how I value your PPG.  Anyone who is any kind of above average scorer can put up huge PPG if they are given enough shots.  The good players convert those shots at a good %.  So I'm all on board for Trae having merited All-NBA in 2019-20, 2020-21, and 2021-22 but not this year.  Ja didn't deserve it for that reason.  Harden had a better case between the two, although I think his big issue is that he isn't close to where he was at his peak and he kind of fell off the radar the last two years.

 

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

But from my personal view (i.e., one of the factors for me if I was voting), if you aren't shooting well then your scoring is empty numbers so the TS% makes a huge difference in how I value your PPG.  Anyone who is any kind of above average scorer can put up huge PPG if they are given enough shots.  The good players convert those shots at a good %.  So I'm all on board for Trae having merited All-NBA in 2019-20, 2020-21, and 2021-22 but not this year.  Ja didn't deserve it for that reason.  Harden had a better case between the two, although I think his big issue is that he isn't close to where he was at his peak and he kind of fell off the radar the last two years.

 

This is just it though.  Because Trae is not a National Star, I believe that our fanbase becomes too statistical in judging him. 

If I told you that a player finished 26, 10, and 3, Played 73 games, lead the league in assists and his team made the playoffs....   Then it's a no brainer that he's an all nba player of some calibre.   Because there are NO OTHER 26, 10 and 3 players in the league.  None. 

But when the name is Trae Young...  Oh, let's look at his TS%.   No, lets look at the EFG%.   Oh let's make sure that he has this box checked and that boxed checked.

Last year, Trae = 28 & 10.  Led the League in Points and Assists.  First time that's been done since 1975.  That's damn near 50 years.... and all he could get was 3rd team... and 0 first team All NBA Votes?

If he played for another fanbase, like the Lakers...  They would give less than a damn about TS%.  Their man is leading the league in Assists and Points.  That should cement his place on the All NBA Team.  Do you realize that they changed the rules to try to stop Trae??

The bottom line is that the media rejects Trae and we (his fans) try to find reasons to justify their prejudice of him.   It's not justified.  It's just hate. 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

 

[AHF]

36 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

This is just it though.  Because Trae is not a National Star, I believe that our fanbase becomes too statistical in judging him. 

If I told you that a player finished 26, 10, and 3, Played 73 games, lead the league in assists and his team made the playoffs....   Then it's a no brainer that he's an all nba player of some calibre.   Because there are NO OTHER 26, 10 and 3 players in the league.  None. 

You basically just described Russell Westbrook in OKC and I never liked him there.  I don't like players like Westbrook, AI, etc. who take a million shots to score their points.  

I am pretty consistent in my view on this.  It isn't one standard for Hawks and another for non-Hawks.  Ja Morant is another player whose scoring I really devalue due to his low TS%.  And I'll just note for the record once again that Morant finished with a lower TS% than Trae this year just like he has every season in his career.  Morant is a poor man's Trae.

[Diesel]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

Morant is a poor man's Trae.

But Morant can dunk!!!

JK...

Seriously.. I don't hold it against you for being a stickler to TS%.  Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying.   However, when it comes to voting for ALL NBA.. I don't think anybody is looking at TS%.  Last year while Trae was 3rd team ALL NBA, Morant was 2nd team.  Trae trumped him in every way. 

I can't get so legalistic that I miss the big picture.   The big picture is that Trae is a gifted superstar player of Historic Measure.  That Westbrook that you mention was an MVP.   That AI that you mentioned was an MVP and made several ALL NBA teams.   Trae has put up Historic numbers and has barely made 1 ALL NBA Team. 

I'm not fishing for a reason to validate the media's hate of Trae. 

 

 

[AHF]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

However, when it comes to voting for ALL NBA.. I don't think anybody is looking at TS%. 

Part of the problem is that every voter may be using different criteria.  Some may use the Shakes criteria and look only to counting stats per game.  Some may use advanced metrics.  Some may just go with narratives about which players are most popular or play the "right way", etc.  I bet there are some voters who do look at scoring efficiency but fully agree that most do not.  As you point out, there is no logic at all behind putting Morant ahead of Trae last year.

[JayBirdHawk]

29 minutes ago, AHF said:

.....every voter IS using different criteria there is no logic at all to any of this.............

I concur 

[Diesel]

After looking it over again... I think that there is 

A PUBLIC CAMPAIGN AGAINST TRAE YOUNG....

Trae was ranked 12th in Guards in the East for Allstar voting. 

Trae was named most overrated by players. 

Can you name 12 guards in the East that are better than Trae?

Any NBA Overrated List that doesn't start with Gobert is not real. 

 

5th in the fan vote.   6th in the media vote.. but 12th in the player votes?

CONSPIRACY...

[Final_quest]

Watching the Celtics last night, it was a stark contrast in how they cover a star struggling in the playoffs.  Tatum is 1-14 at one point and has had quite a few really bad games so far in the playoffs.  The Celtics have carried Tatum and won in spite of him.  But what you hear is how inspiring he is, and how he impacts the game in other ways.  Trae NEVER gets that kind of talk.

Trae's 2nd year in the NBA he averages 29.6 ppg on 52% eFG% with 9 assists.  They said he was a selfish player and stat padder on a bad team.  It's beyond annoying.

[Packfill]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:46 AM, Diesel said:

Trae put up 26.2, 10.2, and 3.0.   And led the league in total assists.  His team made the playoffs.   Beat Miami in the play in.  Faced a top seed and did not crumble.  He played through changing coaches and gave you 73 games. 

• 11th in the league in ppg. 
• 2nd in the league in apg 

Just for grins...

• Jokic is 18th in the league in ppg and 3rd in the league in apg. 
• Harden is Not in the top 20 in PPG and 1st in apg
• Embiid is 1st in the league in PPG and #49 in the league in apg.
• **SGA is 5th in the league in PPG and 30th in the league in apg.
• **Luka is 2nd in the league in ppg and 6th in the league in apg
• Steph is not top 20 in ppg and not top 20 in apg
• D Mitchell is 7th in the league in ppg and not in the top 20 in apg. 
• **D Lillard is 3rd in the league in ppg and 10th in the top 20  in apg
• D Fox is 14th  in the league in ppg and not in the top 20 in  apg

** - Team did not make the playoffs. 

I put all the ALl NBA teams in red.   As you look at the rankings, none of these All NBA team  Guards with the exception of Luka matchup favorably against Trae.   Lillard, SGA, and Luka didn't even make the playoffs.  The league puts out these things that say that Trae is Overrated right around the end of the season so that he does not get voted on for things like this. 

At the end of the day, this is just a popularity contest.   Steph is one of my favorite players but he is not top 20 in points or assists...   But he's second team ALL NBA guard.  His team didn't even do that well.   SGA had a good year for him.. but his team didn't make the play in..  Overall Trae is better.    He's just the flavor of the month because he got his scoring up.   Him and DFox needs to fight over MIP... but is he really more worthy?

 

 

 

Steph "is not in the top 20 in PPG" is misleading as he averaged over 29 points per game during the regular season.  That is of course more than Trae.  

Also not really fair to just look at points and assists for Jokic and Embiid.

I also think most NBA general managers would, based on the information they have today, trade Trae  for SGA if given the opportunity (and if they had SGA, would not trade him for Trae). That is my opinion.  To me OKC was surprisingly good given that they had no bigs and are so young/inexperienced as a team.

[Packfill]

49 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Watching the Celtics last night, it was a stark contrast in how they cover a star struggling in the playoffs.  Tatum is 1-14 at one point and has had quite a few really bad games so far in the playoffs.  The Celtics have carried Tatum and won in spite of him.  But what you hear is how inspiring he is, and how he impacts the game in other ways.  Trae NEVER gets that kind of talk.

Trae's 2nd year in the NBA he averages 29.6 ppg on 52% eFG% with 9 assists.  They said he was a selfish player and stat padder on a bad team.  It's beyond annoying.

I do not consider myself a Trae hater but I would trade him in a nanosecond for Tatum (I think every GM in the league would as well).  I do not think you can say they have won in spite of him on any objective or subjective basis.  Tatum does impact the game at so many levels. 

He did pull a Trae last night by busting out in the 4th Q.  

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Packfill said:

Steph "is not in the top 20 in PPG" is misleading as he averaged over 29 points per game during the regular season.  That is of course more than Trae.  

Also not really fair to just look at points and assists for Jokic and Embiid.

I also think most NBA general managers would, based on the information they have today, trade Trae  for SGA if given the opportunity (and if they had SGA, would not trade him for Trae). That is my opinion.  To me OKC was surprisingly good given that they had no bigs and are so young/inexperienced as a team.

You're right.   I was using Basketball reference for my ranking and for some reason Steph was left off of the scoring list?

But as far as SGA...

He hasn't had the seasons to lead me to believe that what he is doing is sustainable.   He's playing on a team with no other scorers, so it's easy for him to dominate the scoring.   Whereas Trae has shown that he can score with or without others who can score beside him..  Then there's the playmaking. 

I would not trade Trae for SGA.   

I don't translate team or player doing better than expected to them being better than established good player or team.   That's like claiming that Sacramento was the best team in the West just because nobody thought that they could be this good.   Sure, they are good, but there are better teams. 

 

 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Packfill said:

I do not consider myself a Trae hater but I would trade him in a nanosecond for Tatum (I think every GM in the league would as well).  I do not think you can say they have won in spite of him on any objective or subjective basis.  Tatum does impact the game at so many levels. 

He did pull a Trae last night by busting out in the 4th Q.  

I don't think that trade or equivalence in skill is the point.   The point is Trae doesn't get the love from the media that a player like Tatum does.   Instead, he receives the lack of benefit.  It's like media members who don't recognize Draymond for his defense because they don't like Draymond.  With Trae it's always a negative spin.  He's a media villain.. for no reason. 

 

 

 

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I don't think that trade or equivalence in skill is the point.   The point is Trae doesn't get the love from the media that a player like Tatum does.   Instead, he receives the lack of benefit.  It's like media members who don't recognize Draymond for his defense because they don't like Draymond.  With Trae it's always a negative spin.  He's a media villain.. for no reason. 

 

 

 

That's more my point.  Even when Tatum plays bad, they fawn over him. 

When they should be excited about Trae, they give him props and then say buyer beware.  

***He is top 5 in points and assists since he entered the league.  He should get more credit.  

Edited May 12, 2023 by Final_quest

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

That's more my point.  Even when Tatum plays bad, they fawn over him. 

When they should be excited about Trae, they give him props and then say buyer beware.  

***He is top 5 in points and assists since he entered the league.  He should get more credit.  

No doubt.   As he continues, I don't know how they will continue to downplay his excellence at Scoring and Assists.  Especially as the team goes farther.  When we win a chip.. what will they say then?  Probably try to give the credit to DJ or whoever is the recipient of the sweet passes that Trae gives.