Are we really considering Trading JT?

[Guest]

I was looking over Askthegm and I thought I'd bring this to

everyones attention...

"Q - "Why is it such a big deal that you have a smaller-than-

average backcourt? Why is everyone saying Dan Dickau can?t

start with Jason Terry when the other option is Jacque Vaughn

who isn?t any taller than Dan?" -- kurle@attbi.com

A - Because traditionally, you want the most size you can get....

but let's see how it all plays out by the end of training camp. We

are exploring a number of trade options also which could change

the look of our team to a degree....but time will tell on that also.

Thanks for having interest."

That says alot right here.How come there is no talk of JT resigning

a contract other than JT?I think diesel is right with this one.IF you

don't think Dickau is a legit threat to JT being on the team you are

fooling yourself.

"which could change the look of our team to a degree...."

There is more to this than means the eye.You got to ask yourself,who

would be legit on looking for a PG?What about Miami?Do you really think

they are going to start Anthony Carter at PG?A sign and trade JT for

Eddie Jones?

Dan Dickau

Eddie Jones

Dermarr Johnson

SAR

Theo Ratliff

Eddie Jones can also handle the ball.

Heat have:

Jason Terry

Jim Jackson

Caron Butler

Brian Grant

Alonzo Mourning

Does Pat want Jason Terry like he did Tim Hardaway?

[Diesel]

When we drafted DD, one columnist said (I think it was DA) that he will have a starting role by the end of training camp? I took that to mean that he would be our starting PG. even though it's not reliable info, I do believe that Babcock is fielding offers on JT and that if Dickyboy shows that he can handle the job then JT may be traded for More talent.

A SNT for EJ won't work. A SNT wouldn't take effect til JT's contract was up so we'd have to come up with more cash.. HOWEVER, we might use JT to get rid of Hendu. The 2 salaries add up to about 9.0+ million.

JT + Hendu for Jones?

JT + Hendu for Van Horn?

JT + Hendu for Mash?

JT + Hendu for Ray Allen?

Yes Ray Allen. Milwaukee is going to clean house. All that will probably be left is Mason/TT and maybe Big dog.. Cassell is gone. Allen may be gone too. Being that they couldn't get back Scott Williams, getting Hendu would be decent to have a rebounder off the bench.

DD/Allen/DJ/SAR/Theo... Damn.

JT + Hendu for Lewis (SNT).. I think it's too late for that. Plus, i don't want him that bad.

JT + hendu for Antwain Jamison? I keep hearing that AJ is not in the future of the Warriors. Since they have not made the deal for Armstrong yet (Fortson for Armstrong) you have to think something's up. Wouldn't they kill for JT right now. I mean a future of:

JT, JRich, Dunleavy, Murphy, and a C.... Not bad.

However, all I can say is wait til Nov.

Aug is an extremely long month.

[Guest]

I would hope it would not be for Van Horne.KVH is aweful.That

would give our two main scorers neither are going to get the

job done when it counts the most.It sets us up with continued

failure.

I don't like Eddie Jones age,but he is more clutch than Van Horne

could ever be.

Does the lineup look sorta like their old lineup to you?

JT=Tim Hardaway

JJ/Lenard?Difference here

Butler=Mash?You think they could be the same type of player?

Grant/PJ Brown?makes sense

Zo/ZO

Sometimes a old coach never changes his habbits.....Lenny

seems to try to build the old Hawk type of team in Toronto?

Phil of course has the same plans as always....Rudy T still

has those 3pt shooters with Mobley/Nachbar/Rice/Griffin?

Old habbits are hard to kill.

[JTFan31]

And I tell you why? In reality Dickau didnt look so great in summer league, especially for the experience that he has. He had 4 years of college ball and he really didnt torch those guys. IMO Bullock looked just as good with less minutes. Comparing what JT did in the summer league when we was entering the NBA, he was torching night and night out B. Davis and Dre Miller, just torching them left and right. BY the way JT was running the point in that summer league play.

JT has stated everywhere and anywhere, that he wants to be here, he loves the city and he wants to be a Hawk. Do you know what that means? With the talent that JT has he is NOT going to let no rookie PG come in and take his job especially one that he knows he can out play every minute. He will light up Dickau in training camp. Dickau can't touch Terry.

I wont be surprise if Dickau gets traded after they see Terry torching Dickau in training camp.

By own insider: I have a friend in Boston. He is in school up there and he is a big Celtic fan. He went to about 3 games of the Hawks games to check out Dickau, DJ & Dion for me. We spoke on the phone this weekend about it. He didn't have time to talk with me but he finally did. He told me that in his opinion Dickau does not impress him one bit, he did say that he had some nice dishes, but other than that he didnt impress him at all. I asked him if JT was a better PG? he said in his words "Please Mike are you serious, I have seen JT play and NO way in the world can this guy touch JT !!" exactly what he said. I still remember those words and thats why I kind of used it a bit on the top paragraphs. He also stated that Dickau was doing this against career CBAers. Coaches and managements will know for sure once training camp starts. JT is the heart and soul of this team and captain and he is a rising star in this league and has now become the 3rd best pg in the East because of Dre's departure, hehe. You go head JT do your thing, show that rookie who is bosshog in Atlanta.

[Blunt91]

Why are people trying to judge Dan "The Man" Dickau from the summerleague games? This isn't a good evalution of him as a player. Jason Terry is a scorer not a true pointguard. No he isn't as fast as JT or the scorer JT is but he is already better as a "Pure" point than JT. If a scenario came up that Milwaukee would give up Ray Allen for JT & Hendu we would be stupid not to jump on it.I don't know about Eddie Jones but I would definetly send JT packing for Ray Allen who is only about 27years old.

[Diesel]

Summer League is definitely not an adequate forum to evaluate a player's skill and readiness for the NBA. It's just not. Too many guys that are not apart of the team in summer league. The exhibition season will be a much better barometer because in exhibitionseason coaches get to see how DD has picked up the plays and how he interacts with SAR/DJ/Theo/JT and all the rest.

Let's separate reality from WISHING Here:

In reply to:

---

JT has stated everywhere and anywhere, that he wants to be here, he loves the city and he wants to be a Hawk. Do you know what that means? With the talent that JT has he is NOT going to let no rookie PG come in and take his job especially one that he knows he can out play every minute. He will light up Dickau in training camp. Dickau can't touch Terry.

---

This is Wishing. The question is not who is the better scorer. The or who loves the city the most. JT loved playing for Lenny too... Until Lenny Left. JT loved playing with JJ too... Until JJ left. JT loved playing with Deke Too... until Deke Left. What is to say that JT's feeling about Atlanta won't change when he's gone?

Anyway, the point is not who's the better scorer. The point is can DD run the offense better. IF so, then it's a good possibility that a trade can happen.

If you want to talk about lighting it up... What squad is better:

JT/DJ/CC/SAR/Theo

vs.

DD/Ray Allen/DJ/SAR/Theo.

The true answer is we don't know because we don't know if DD can run the offense. However, if DD can run the offense, the second team is better by a mile. Therefore, in essence, it's not really about how good JT is.. But it's about how weak we are at SF/SG spot... and who we can get to replace it.

[ATLien_]

The only one of those deals I would do Diesel is for Ray Allen. I don't want any of those other players because they are to old or they suck like van horn.

Ray Allen is one of the most underated players in the NBA and I would gladly take him for JT.

I will say this though, if we trade JT, I do believe we will regret the day we ever did it. Even if we get Allen. I really see JT developing into the best PG out of his draft class. Thats just my opinion and you can say what you want, but I think he will be the best. If he doesn't best them he will at least be equal to them.

[JTFan31]

I'm not only saying that JT will light up Dickau in points, but just about everything else. JT is a better penetrator, defender, plays the passing lanes better, has the mid range game that Dickau lacks. I do admit it Dickau really had some nice dishes but so did Terry last year when he was playing point. Oh wait one more thing when Reef is doubled team and tripled team in the clutch in the 4th when we desparately need a bucket, Who is gonna be there for that winning shot? Dickau, I dont think so. This is where JT excels, JT can take over a game all by himself but he decides to play the PG role, and he does it damn good too.

And the comparison that you gave Diesel with Ray Allen in the lineup you are just imagining and praying for that to happen and it wont. I can say the same thing which team is better:

JT/DJ/CC/Reef/Theo

VS

DD/Kobe/DJ/Reef/Theo

Well duh of course the 2nd unit is better, but the bad news is that Kobe is not a Hawk and neither is Ray Allen. So lets analyze it like this Diesel, which team is better:

Lets do it with what we have now.

JT/Dion/DJ/Reef/Theo

vs

DD/Dion/DJ/Reef/Theo

Of course the first team is much better, much more fire power with an experience player running the point. The first team can make the playoff and second team will be a year away possibly more.

My point is that we want to win now and not tomorrow and also like I have said thousands of times JT is an allstar in the making and can possibly very easily be the best PG of that draft class. As far as Dickau goes, IMO he is just a decent NBA PG at best.

[Guest]

Why is Ray Allen so much better than JT? JT may become a Iverson with a concience. Unstopable but not needing to shoot 30 times a game. The key to being a point guard is knowing when and where to give up the ball. JT is not a greedy me first guy, he just knows he is the best 4th qtr option. I didnt hear anybody saying anything about Bibby shooting it instead of setting his team up. What did Bibby average for assist during the year. JT WILL BE A TOP PG IN THE NBA. I just hope its here and not somewhere else.

[BlackHawkDown]

Why would we trade a rare talent like JT. As far as I am concerned JT and SAR are here to stay. But Babs is a fool he will trade both keep Lon and have DD starting. We will suck and Babs will be happy because he will never be fired no matter what. Kasten Pete Lon must Go AOL must go.

Sell the team

Why on earth dont we have Eldgin Baylor and Doc Rivers running our team.

[Traceman]

How hard is it to live in the lottery for a decade and finally assemble a talented roster? The Clips have been pathetic for so long, they ended up getting high lottery picks for nearly a decade. In fact, they picked no lower than number 4 in the 4 years between 98-99 and 01-02. How hard can it be to assemble talent when you are always picking from the best college players?

Top 4 picks in '98 - Olowokandi, Bibby, LaFrentz, Jamison. Could have had Carter too! All good to very good players.

Top 4 picks in '99 - Brand, Francis, Davis, Odom. All superstar caliber players. How hard was it to pick from those guys?

Top 4 picks in '00 - Martin, Swift, Miles, Fizer. Drop off after 3 but the Clips had the 3rd pick.

Top 4 picks in '01 - Brown, Chandler, Gasol, Curry. Could have had J Rich or Battier as well. All guys with superstar potential.

You could take the WORST guy in the top 4 from those 4 years and STILL have 4 talented players. Even Baylor couldn't screw that up. In fairness to Elgin, he has the worst owner in professional sports as a boss so its not all his fault but saying that he is this great GM is a bunch of BS. Compare the number of times the Clips have made the playoffs with the number of times the Hawks have made the playoffs since both Babs and Baylor have been in place and Babs has CLEARLY done a better job.

[RLHawk]

You are missng the point. We are not gong to just give JT away for nothing in return. So comparing JT to no JT with the same team maes no sense. Noone on this site would dare say we are better off without JT. But lets loo at a couple things that could lead you to believe if we could trade JT/Hendu for Allen that it could be planned for. ths assumes that we believe babcoc s planning the future of this team.

1) Why did we work DJ at exclusively the 3 in summer league? Why did he wor manly on defense when there are areas of his offense that need some work? Why did we never run the offense through him? Why did we force him to being the 2nd/3rd option?

An answer could be...we are not bringng in a SF as a trade. Pete s not looking for a sF. He is looking for a SG. he is also not looking for a really good defensive SG like Eddie Johnson or Spreewell, so he will need some help out of the other swingman position (kind of like Ira did last year). It could be Ray Allen is his target. cOuld a JT+Hendu get him? I don't know.

2) Lets look at the cap for this year and 2005. If we bring in a guy that cost us 9M (as referenced by Babcock) and all we give up is extra players (Hendu/CC/Toni) then we will have the same cap number we have now this year, but we will increase significantly each of the next 2 years.

Lets look at an example...say we trade toni/CC (everyone would like to rid of these two contracts, right) for a player making 10M (salary slightly lower than Toni + CC. This year our cap number would remain basically the same. We trade 10M for 10M back. just now we are better because we trade depth for starters.

Now lets look at the roster in 2005 (2 seasons from now). our starters are JT/DJ/New Guy/SAR/Theo with backups of Nazr/Hendu/DD under contract. JT will have had an extension of say 7M+ (assume on the low side) and dJ will be starting his first season of his extension of 7M+ (assume he keeps coming on) JT-7m, DJ-7M, New guy-10M, SAR-14m, Theo-11M = 49M for starters. Nazr-6.2M, Hendu-8.5M, DD-1M = 16M for reserves or ~65M for 8 of 12 players (luxary tax land big time).

Or we could make a trade of JT/Hendu for Ray Allen. This gets rid of a big contract = a potential big contract. The cap number is the same for this year, but look at the same math with this lineup in 2005. DD-1m, RA-11M, DJ-7M, SAR-14m, Theo-11M = 44M for starters. Nazr-6.2M, CC-3.3M = 9.5M for reserves or ~53.5M for 7 of 12 players (just below luxary land).

That is a difference of 12M in the season. That will get you quite a few reserves probably without going into luxary tax land.

3) Lets read a book on chanpionship teams now. Remember, we do not want to be a playoff team, but a championship team. I believe Pete thinks JT will be an all-star PG in the future. He is convinced of it, unfortunately, rarely does an all star PG lead you to the championship. It usually takes a serviceable PG and all star other players. Lets look at some examples of that.

Lakers (shaq/kobe) + Fischer (definitely not all star quality)

Bulls (MJ/Pippen) + few roll player PGs

Houston (Dream/Drexler) + ???

There are a few championship teams with all star PG (Old Lakers with Magic (more like a point-forward), Detroit) but not nearly as many as those that have an all star but fail to make it.

Maybe pete believes that an all-star SG/PF/C combo with a good PG/SF is better than an all-star PG/PF/C with good swing men. He may believe that the piece all great teams hae is a super star SG and JT will never be that.

summary: I for one would rather have DD/RA/DJ/SAR/Theo for a long time than have JT/Eddie Jones/DJ/SAR/Theo (or others) for only 2 years.

[Guest]

Interesting post. However I really have to disagree with you about the need for an all-star point guard on a championship team...I'm nto saying that it's a must, but I think yo'ure selling the position short. While I can't argue with the fact that many of the recent champions have not had a great pg, fact of the matter is that those teams (9 of the last 11 anyhow) had Phil Jackson, Tex Winter, probably the best player in the league at the time, and the Triangle. The latter of which is a defined offense that does not require a true pg, just good ball handlers/ passers in the 1-3 slot. I think it's a little presumptious to say that a quality pg isn't needed to win...I mean, if you back back prior to the triangle and MJ's run, you get what you mentioned - the pistons which were pg led, the lakers which were pg led...etc.

[Diesel]

I'm not saying that these are deals that we should do, I'm saying that these are players who are likely to be more available than us saying...

"JT for Miles"

or

"JT for Odom".

The game changes day by day. A few days ago, Odom was available. Now, he's not.

As far as JT being the best in his draft class. I have serious doubts.

The obvious choice is Miller, however, I believe that Miller will be in decline now that he's a clipper. Not because they are bad, but because they are so stacked that he won't have to do as much as he did in Cleveland.

BUT... There are 2 other losses.

JT vs. Davis. Davis is much stronger than JT. Much better ball handler and decision maker.

JT vs. Francis. Francis is a do all kind of PG with Scoring being his main thing. But he gets 6 rebounds and 6 assists. JT doesn't come close to that kind of all around ability.

[Diesel]

A scoring PG?

If we concede too much of the offense to the PG position, we will go nowhere. Right now, JT is responsible for about 30% of our PPG. IF that remains true we are in trouble. It's better to have players that score and a PG that distribute but can score when he needs to. Look at the failing of Seattle. They had some really good role players surrounding Kemp and GP when they went to the finals. They were Goobled up against the Bulls because Phil allowed Payton to be the scoring emphasis for his team then in the 4th, he turned the dogs on Payton. NOW, JT is not Payton nor is he the distributor that Payton is, but Payton could not get his boys back involved into the flow of the offense after they had watched him score for most of the game. The same thing happened with the early Lakers. Except Shaq would do all the scoring and all those three pt Shooters would get cold... Then when crunch time came and they doubled up on Shaq, there was no one who could create.

The same would happen with us. We are just a two man team.. If another team stops one of our 2 men, we are worthless. But with the scoring emphasis away from the Point, we have a better chance to combat that... Like Boston.

[Traceman]

That term gets thrown around so much I just wonder what it means. I think that any PG who can score gets unfairly labeled as a "scoring PG." Is it such a bad thing to have your PG be a capable scorer? Gary Payton was a pure PG until he devloped a J, now he's a scoring PG. What kind of PG is Steve Francis? Marbury? Van Exel? Baron Davis? Bibby? Jason Kidd is the standard by which all so called "pure" PGs are measured but if he had a J, he'd probably get lableled as a scoring PG as well.

As far as DD goes, if he produces HALF of what JT produced last year (when he played PG for the last half of the season), I'll be VERY happy. If DD can give us 10 ppg/3.5 apg and limit his turnovers, he'll be doing GREAT. If he can match JT's rookie numbers of 8.1 ppg, 4.3 apg, I'll be happy with that too. I just don't think its realistic to expect him to come in here and put up huge numbers off the bat.

Look at Tony Parker. Parker was supposed to be so great last year and yet look at a comparison of his rookie stats versus JT's rookie stats:

TP - 29 mpg, 42%fg, 32% 3pfg, 68% ft, 9.2 ppg, 2.6 rbg, 4.3 apg, 1.16 spg

JT - 23 mpg, 42% fg, 29% 3pfg, 81% ft, 8.1 ppg, 2.0 rbg, 4.3 apg, 1.11 spg

Their rookie season stats are VERY similar yet JT was labeled a semi-bust as a rookie while Parker was a first team all rookie. In addition, most consider him a so-called pure PG. That's amazing to me, particularly when Parker had FAR more options to pass the ball to and yet JT averaged an equal number of apg in SIX fewer mpg! Six minutes is a LONG time.

If DD comes in and puts up better numbers than Parker as a rookie, I will be very surprised. However, I think it's entirely possible that he could equal those numbers this year. I think the chance of him coming in and being anywhere close to as good as JT will be at PG THIS YEAR is nonexistent.

[Guest]

Diesel, while not totally disagreeing with you, I think you're a little off on our reliance to JT...he averaged 19.3 ppg of our team total 94...equals 20.5 percent of the teams' ppg. Combined with Reef, that's 43.1% of the team's ppg...not really a bad number.

In response to Traceman, I think that to earn the label of a "pure" pg, a couple of things have to be taken into account...assists are certainly one of them, but you have to look at how the player gets those assists and to what extent he makes his teammates better with his passes in general (cause if they dribble, he doesn't get the asst., but perhaps he put them in a fantastic position). I'm not attempting to scribe all the qualities that go into making a pure pg, but the biggest ones are thinknig pass first, but I can hit a J enough to keep everyone else honest and enough so that I can get mine too...

[Traceman]

First of all JT only scores about 20% of our total ppg not 30%. But that's not really the point.

Many teams have had success with PGs who score the bulk of their points. Look at NJ this year. Kidd, Van Horn and Martin all scored around 14.8 ppg during the regular season but during the playoffs, Kidd looked to score more and he led his team to the finals while averaging right at 20 ppg in the playoffs. Meanwhile, Meanwhile Martin and Van Horn stayed around their season averages. Didn't Isiah led the Pistons in scoring during their back to back title seasons? If not, he was no lower than 2nd (just like JT is). Same goes for Magic in LA. It doesn't matter so much who scores the points as much as it matters that everyone knows and performs their roles.

As far as GP goes, JORDAN is the reason they didn't win the title just as he is for many other players. GP and Co. were good enough to get to the Finals so their formula obviously worked, they just weren't good enough to overcome the greatest player in the history of the game. Is that so bad?

[Guest]

I agree!Using Gary Payton is a poor example.IF you tell me we

could be as good as that Seattle team I'll start getting really

happy right now!Payton/Hawkins/Detlef S/Kemp/Johnson was

one of the best starting lineups in the 90's in my opinion.

I have to agree about Parker...Maybe we are overrating him

just alittle bit.Is 8PPG/4APG anything to brag about?Sure you

can talk about age,but that doesn't mean he is superstar in

the making.Too many fans these days see all youth as future

superstars!IT gets on my nerves!

[Guest]

Why are you guys trying to compare Dan Dickau and JT right now? That is ridiculous. DD has not even played a regular season game yet, Terry has played since '99. In addition, I did see DD play against the Bucks earlier this month on ESPN. I even taped the game. Personally, he played like a champ. He was absolutely abusing any guards who were trying to contain him. He passes the ball with creativity yet with a fundamental sound touch. He has an awesome jumper which DOES show mid range game too. If I were in the Hawks management I would trade JT because he has flat out said that he wants to play the 2. And since his stock is good, the Hawks can get some trade value out of him, maybe Eddie Jones, Wally Sczerbiak, etc. In any case Dan Dickau has much potential to succeed as a player in the NBA, the question is will he get the chance to show what he really is made of?