What is a PURE PG?

[Guest]

In reply to:

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would rather have JT than Bibby (though it's close and their games are somewhat similar), but Bibby's attitude in the fourth was exactly what Sac. lacked...in that

regards, I think the combo of JT and SAR is very comparable to bibby and CWebb...very similar. Sac. just has more talent on the rest of the team than we

currently do. If anything, I think that the Hawks should look at Sac's lineup and see the similarities/ way that we could

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If Sactown offered Bibby for JT, I'd be all over it. Do you know what the difference was between Sac this yr and Sac 2 yr ago.

First off, Sactown 2 yrs ago got Swept in the 2nd round of the playoffs by the Lakers. The difference wasn't experience. The difference was that Sac this yr had Bibby. When Webber pulled his disappearing act (like he normally does) there was a leader there who was able to hit the big shot and take over the game. And you're telling me that you wouldn't want that guy.

That guy was the same guy who Beat Terry out for the starting job in UA. IN fact, JT needs to send a portion of his check to Bibby for had Bibby never left UA, Terry would have been another 2nd round flop in the NBA.

[Guest Walter]

Diesel cited as his argument for why JT isn't a "pure Pg" that he didn't make up a large enough percent of his team's assists and made up too large of a percent of his team's points.

In reply to:

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"PG______________%PPG____________%APG

Kidd_____________15%_____________41%

Payton___________23%_____________38%

B.Davis___________19%_____________40%

Miller_____________17%_____________47%

Terry_____________20%_____________27%"

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Then...

In reply to:

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"BTW, for those of you who say that in the second half, he played more at PG than in the first half of the season.....

PPG% - 21.3%

APG% - 30.7%"

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However, aside from arguments such as JT had ONLY ONE double digit scorer to pass too or score in lue of him, that the team had more injuries than any other NBA team, that the term "pure Pg" is vague, inflammatory (meaning less important to the team winning than being say extremely good), and to be one, especially so early in ones career, is uncustumary (i.e. Payton), that the players Diesel compares JT to are the best in the NBA at their position regardless of their deserving the "pure Pg" label or not (see Dolfan's "Who has tried to compare him to those guys? [re: Diesel]" post), etc., chillzatl's (cut up) argument reads as follows...

In reply to:

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"(JT's) APG didn't just jump up all of a sudden at the mid-point of the season. He slowly and gradually brought them up. In the last month of the season it was near 8 apg...Re-do your calculation over the last month of the season and lets see how those numbers look...7-8 APG is far beyond the "simple assist" realm that you've mentioned before.

Also you gloss over your own numbers here. You say that there wasn't much of a rise in assist in the 2nd half % wise. Well there was more of a rise there than in offense, which you incorrectly pointed out. 1.3% compared to 3.7%. He was looking to pass the ball more. If you look at his numbers in the last month when he was pulling near 8apg he certainly looks more like a PG. Who cares if he's a "pure pg" or not. That's nothing but magazine hype for guys who are first rate passers but lack some scoring ability."

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So the gauntlet has been thrown.

However, I will spare Diesel the work of looking into JT's % of Pts and Asts for the Hawks team in the last two months of the season if he will live by his own numbers, not "gloss over them" anymore, and accept the conclusion they portray.

JT's %age of pts and asts (since March 17th) respectively.

36.7% of the team's assists and 20.35% of the team's points.

JT has managed to nearly equal GP's % of his team's assists (38%) while maintaining his ability (if not necessity given he has only one double digit scorer to pass to and the most injured team in the NBA) to score more of his teams points percentage-wise than the Pg elite of Kidd, Davis, and Miller.

More impressive may be the fact that JT managed to steadily increase his percentage of the team's APG from 27% for the season (much of it as a 2 guard) and 30.7% for the second half of the season (much of the earlier part of it while (re)adjusting to the Pg posititon) to 36.7% for the last month of the season. That's an increase of 10% of the team's assists in less than a season! Additionally, his percentage of the team's assists for the season was MUCH lower considering the season included his month of averaging 36.7% of the team's assists.

Is Terry a "pure Pg"? The last month surely suggests he is but regardless he's putting up numbers comperable with the league's elite Pgs and players. Regardless, one who uses such inflammatory language such as "JT is not a 'pure Pg'" to further their argument that JT should be traded for conceivably something of value (but likely not equal value) so that DD can start is not making a rational argument at all but one based upon the attempt to sway emotions. What I see is an argument that not only fails to argue rationally but fails explain the definition, criteria (outside of comparisons to the NBA's top tier, elite players and Pgs), and of and the importance of a "pure Pg" and to meet any objective standard of proof to demonstrate JT being NOT a "pure Pg".

In fact, the evidence suggests that JT may be more of a "pure Pg" than Gary Payton (in that he scores 3% less of his team's PPG while only handing out 1.3% fewer of the team's APG) and arriving at being as good a Pg as him regardless of labels.

"Pure Pg" or not, JT put up a month of mimicing one statistically and for a good while has been playing comperably to the NBA's elite at the position. Top that with his unquestioned team leadership, character, and unquestioned desire to be a Hawk for his career and you can't ask for a better candidate for someone we should not trade.

W

[Guest]

D, I'm not arguing that SAR has been a great addition to this team in many ways and is the off court leader. He has gotten through to players where others, both players and coaches could not. Those things cannot be underestimated and in defending/ pointing out JT's leadership on the floor, I was in no way trying to sell JT short. I was merely making the point that JT has a leadership role on this team as well and it is something that should be taken into account. He's not afraid of the rock in the 4th.

While I'm not saying that SAR has the disappering capacity of Webber late in games, due to double or triple teams or whatever you want to cite, he's had trouble getting his own shot/ shot off in crunch time and JT has stepped up on many occasions. The Yin and the Yang if you will...overguard one and the other makes you pay. Every team needs that. JT does bring excitment to the floor, that's the point I was trying to make. One thing that never shows in stats is chemistry, and I think that a large part of this team's makeup does revolve around JT (and SAR, not excepting him here, just not highlighting him here); any trade involving JT has to take that into account and procure us someone who can step up in the same sort of situations and that can create their own shot.

As for Bibby and JT...the pro game is not the college one. We all know that. I'm not disagreeing that Bibby's departure helped JT a lot at Arizona, and I think that Bibby does have more "floor vision" than JT, but JT's better in some other catagories that, when taken into account, make them very comparable players. Bibby was the missing link in Sactown; being a slightly better ball handler and pg in general (but no necessarily player), he fit the bill for what that team needed. But I think the dynamic between the two tandems, Bibby and CWebb/ JT and SAR, is very similar.

[Diesel]

P TP %P A TA %A

3 83 4% 6 22 27%

11 95 12% 5 26 19%

29 96 30% 4 27 15%

25 91 27% 1 16 6%

GS 32 121 26% 9 26 35%

Den 31 105 30% 8 25 32%

Pho 11 104 11% 8 18 44%

9 68 13% 6 13 46%

22 102 22% 11 34 32%

23 112 21% 13 24 54%

NJ (L) 17 102 17% 9 26 35%

NJ (W) 13 103 13% 1 22 5%

Tor (L) 16 83 19% 7 17 41%

Mia (L) 23 80 29% 6 13 46%

SAC (L) 20 91 22% 9 22 41%

Mil 19 100 19% 6 21 29%

19.00 96.00 20% 6.81 22.00 32%

I've looked at his March. It shows that in march, his Assist wre better. He was running the point. His averages are shown above.

After going to the dieselputer... This is what we need from JT if we are to be a Winning team:

As a team we need to average about 98 ppg.

JT needs to score about 17% of our points per game.

As a team, we need to average about 26 apg.

JT needs to provide about 35% of our apg.

In other words, what we need from JT is about 17 ppg, 7 apg.

BUT... We must score 98 ppg, we must average 26 apg.

[Diesel]

There are no excuses for a Pure PG. A PG get people the ball and make them look better. Andre Miller didn't have ANYONE To pass to. NO 20 ppg scorers on Clevelands squad. Still he led the NBA in Assists. Pure PG. Still he got the ball to whoever. IN LAC, I doubt that his numbers will be so high but he will make them better.

With SAR on the team, JT's job of passing and getting assists is made easy. Maybe I'm too inclined to believe what I see when I watch them play. Offense.... Stagnant. SAR getting the ball in the wrong position. Sure there are assists but If I see SAR in the post and I throw it to him, What have I done that a monkey or a JV couldn't do?

The problem is that when I watch... I see a floor full of one on one matchups but no real cohesiveness. We need to be insinc like the trios that rob blackjack tables in Las Vegas. Timing perfect. I don't see that. I see what I would see in a Pickup game.

... Terry comes across the line. He stops...Is there anybody open?... He passes it in. The ball comes back to him. He dribbles a little more. He stops... Is there anybody open? He passes and sets up for his shot.

However, what I expect is....

Terry brings the ball up. Terry calls the play. Play is executed. Terry makes the pass. Assist.

Can you tell the difference.

IN the first case (what I see) is Terry waiting for something to happen. IN the second case is Terry making something happen. If you don't get that... Pull out those old Isiah Thomas tapes... From the bad boys years. That's PGing at a high level.

[Traceman]

Saying that Bibby was MORE responsible for SAC's success than the team's maturation was is not necessarily true either. When Bibby played PG for VAN, he had MORE talent around him than JT did for most of last year and the Grizz were arguably the worst team in the NBA for his entire tenure there. Look at the comparison:

Big Country vs Nazr - slight edge Nazr

Harrington vs SAR - SAR

SAR vs Ira - SAR

Dickerson vs DJ - Dickerson

Bibby vs JT - Diesel says Bibby

Therefore, VAN should have been better with Bibby than we were last year at 3 out 5 positions. If that was the case, why did we win TEN more games with JT as our PG than they did with Bibby as their PG? JT only had SAR as a reliable scorer when Bibby had SAR AND Dickerson. If we could get a healthy Dickerson, I think we would be a playoff team.

By the way, Jason Williams put up numbers that were VERY similar (14.8 ppg, 8.1 apg) to what Bibby put up when he was in VAN. Does that mean that Williams is as good as Bibby, no, but it does indicate that the talent around Bibby was more responsible for his success than he was for their success. They were a WC Finals team with or without Bibby. Bibby was almost enough to push them over the top.

[chillzatl]

Walter, you pointed out JT's %'s for the last month. While I think that alone shows that this guy has what it takes to be a gary payton level/style PG. It also shows that his team got better around him. Guys learned where to be and when to be there and that allowed JT to find them more easily. Credit for JT's assists don't just go to JT.

THis also spills over to what Diesel was saying about JT dumping the ball in to Reef to get an assist or going in and out with it looking for someone who was open. As opposed to bringing the ball up, setting something up and executing. A HUGE part of the difference between the two is the skill of the players around him. Early on JT didn't have a team capable of executing. Early on when some here were flaming the team/coach for not running plays. I often pointed out that our team just wasn't experienced enough to execute those plays regularly. As the season wore on the guys learned each other, improved and did a MUCH better job of it. I also point out again the many many times I saw JT hit Reef/Nazr/DJ/Hendu/Hanno with a BEAUTIFUL pass only to have them drop the ball, dribble it off their foot, look confused or charge into someone on the other team. As the team got better and he got better we saw a lot less of that.

JT CAN be a top 5 PG in this league. He's not there yet but I wouldn't hesitate to put him top 10 already. He's better overall than Bibby, Tinsley and parker. He's up there with Nash, Marbury, and Davis as far as overall ability goes.

[Guest]

First of all,I wouldn't trade JT for Kermit the frog(Bibby).

JT had to carry this team in the 4th.You say he should get

more assist because of Reef.Shareef is NOT Tim Duncan,Shareef

is not Kevin Garnett and Terry had a subpar supporting cast.C'mon

dude Hanno played all 82 games.

JT to couldn't get assist ESP in the 4th because everyone from Nazr

Mohammad to Shareef were freakin hiding in the 4th and JT had to

take the shots.

[Diesel]

Sorry but that's a sorry excuse.

Let's take a look at some PGs and Programs.

1. Andre Miller. He had a horrible cast around him. Highest PPG was Murray (a 43% shooter) scoring 16.6%. His starting C shot 42.5% from the field. Yet... Miller averaged 10.9 Assist PG.

2. The three worst teams in terms of FG%... Houston/Denver/Boston.

Houston's PG averaged 6.4 apg.

Denver's PG averaged 8.1 apg.

Boston's PG averaged 5.3 apg.

What this tells me is.... It doesn't matter how well your teammates shoot or not. You should be able to get them the ball or to create or something. JT has an allstar playing with him... Yet everytime we look at weather or not JT can execute offensive plays... There's always this excuse that the players around him aren't good enough. That's BS. Even NICK Van Exel on one of the worst teams in the NBA did very well when you talk about executing the offense.

[Guest]

Whatever..

When Hanno/Ira/Mohammad/Alan Henderson are main

parts of your team you have a supporting cast problem.

"JT has an allstar playing with him..."

Yeah a allstar that is gone in the 4th when you need him

the most.Is that the allstar you are talking about?

[Diesel]

PG______________%PPG____________%APG

Kidd_____________15%_____________41%

Payton___________23%_____________38%

B.Davis___________19%_____________40%

Miller_____________17%_____________47%

Terry_____________20%_____________27%

Bibby_____________13%_____________21%

NVE______________23%_____________37%

Marbury___________21%_____________36%

Cassell___________20%______________30%

Armstrong_________12%______________25%

Nash_____________17%______________35%

Tinsley____________10%______________35%

JWill_______________16%_____________37%

While JT is a poor man's cassell, for us to win, his numbers should be more like Payton/Nash... Higher A%.

[Traceman]

If JT had roughly 20% of our PPG and 37% of our apg from March 17 on, using your logic, doesn't that put him in the same company as most of your so-called "pure PGs?" In addition, even after March 17, JT continued to play SIGNIFICANT minutes at SG which in theory would take away from his playmaking opportunities and add to his scoring opportunuities, thus further skewing the numbers. Who knows, if JT had played PG exclusively as almost every other PG on the list did, using your formula, he might have been one of the top 2 or 3 pure PGs in the NBA!

[Playoffs03]

those numbers don't mean a whole lot

i mean, look at JWill (memphis) 16% 37%, according to THESE numbers, he is more of a PURE PG than JT 20% 27%. but would u rather have JWill or JT running the point?

a pass first shoot second pg doesn't necessary equal to PURE PG, a PURE PG should be an on court leader who do whatever it takes to get the offense running. the cavs would have been better last season if andre has shot more and passed less. of course, he can continue to do what he was doing in clippers coz he has much more scorer around him.

basically my point is, last season, the hawks leading scorer is shareef, and then our second scoring option is our PG, JT, he didn't pass as much becoz we didn't have enough scorer around. would u rather want JT taking 10 long range shots a night or Ira taking 10 long range shots? it is very unfair to say that JT is not a PURE PG just becoz his number shows that his APG were high enough.

he has only played pg for half a season, give him some time, he is still young.

[JTFan31]

Diesel........weaseldom meant on the court JT takes the leadership role. He said only on the court off the court he does a good job also, but Reef does a better job off the court.

[JTFan31]

OMG please Diesel makes some sense man, Are you freaking serious. Terry being another 2nd round flop, what kind of BS is that man. If JT would of fallen to the 2nd round he would of been one of the best steals in NBA draft's history.

Bibby making big shots and taking leadership in the playoffs. Ok you are right Bibby was a rock in the playoffs, but you know what JT has done that same thing during the season, hitting big shots all the time (thats a routine for him), and JT definitely takes the leadership role in the Hawks. Who is always taking over in the fourth when Reef is blanketed left and right. Another thing Bibby had Webber and Peja to pass too, JT only had Reef and yet JT avg more assists as a half the season PG. Now you tell me who is the better PG? Another thing JT avg's 6 more ppg than Bibby. JT is clutch and I have no doubt in my mind that when we make the playoffs this year JT will be a monster in the playoffs, and he will be coming out of everyone's lips in the basketball world.

IMO JT is the better player, PG and leader than Bibby.

[Diesel]

Had Bibby not left Arizona. Terry would have been a BU at PG during his senior season.

Without that opportunity to Shine, he would have been a 2nd rounder if he was drafted at All.

Now, as a Second rounder, he would have come to a team in worst shape than what we got because he didn't have that opportunity to learn as a starter.

But even if that was not so much of a factor... When we got Terry he was NOT NBA ready. His first season was horrid. He could barely bring the ball up the court. I distinctly remember teams being able to trap him at Will.

Had a team picked up JT in the second round... With NO guaranteed contract, they would not have taken the time to work with him or find out what kind of scorer he would be... Remember, he came out as a PG... Not a Sg.

Many better college players (than Terry as a 2nd rounder) have come out and not made the cut.

A few that come to mind:

Conzo Martin, King Rice, Calabria, Ward Turner....etc

[JTFan31]

So basically what you are saying that if Bibby would of stayed in school, Terry would of been a 2nd round draftee? so he probably be playing in the CBA, over seas or NBDL, is this what you are basically trying to say, Diesel. Because if it is then is absurd. By the way does guys you mentioned sucked. So JT led his conference in almost every category because Bibby left? Well damn then Bibby must be a hog then on the court. Last time I saw, I saw JT destroying Bibby left and right when Hawks played Kings.

[Guest]

Think about it for a minute...IF Bibby stays then JT is the backup

and when he goes to the draft he comes in as a backup...look at

even Dan Dickau,he was a overachiever and put up numbers on a

team as a starter and still was drafted 29th...Think fo Terry being

drafted as a backup and you have a 2nd round pick.

But I'd really like to see what Terry could do as the Kings starting

PG.The offense runs through Webber and Vlade so JT wouldn't

have to worry about assist...I think he would take advange of

the situation really nicely.....

[Diesel]

U would know that I am right.

Had Bibby not Left, JT would have remained a BU. Those guys I mentioned all sucked on the pro level but they were starters in college.

OK... Let's put it this way.

JT would have stood as much of a chance as MILES SIMON. Remember him. He was a BU at Arizona too. In fact, I think he later became a Starter... Wait, let me think....

Really, I cannot think of too many undersized BU PGs that were first round picks. The ones that were picked in the Second round escape me as well.

So. here's your homework... Before you do it.. Do you acknowledge that Had Bibby stayed at Zona, JT would have remained a BU?

Is so,

Your assignment is to find one BU PG in college that made it to the 1st round.

[Guest]

Was Jacque Vaughn a backup????