What is a PURE PG?

[Diesel]

Just looking at Trace's question, I thought of a neat way to examine PGs in the league and the numbers will tell you which PGs are pure and which are not.

PG______________%PPG____________%APG

Kidd_____________15%_____________41%

Payton___________23%_____________38%

B.Davis___________19%_____________40%

Miller_____________17%_____________47%

Terry_____________20%_____________27%

Make whatever excuse you feel. The bottom line is that JT is not close to a Pure PG. Look at Kidd and Miller's numbers. They show that the Pure PG is more involved with APG than PPG. GP is who I feel JT should pattern his game after if he wants to make it in the NBA... However, JT's assists numbers are mighty low. He's really still a SG.

[Diesel]

BTW, for those of you who say that in the second half, he played more at PG than in the first half of the season.....

PPG% - 21.3%

APG% - 30.7%

Not much of a rise in assist. However a definite rise in offense. Again, he has the numbers of a SG.

[SWOLEHAWK]

Show me those numbers with JT playing the point for a full season with a healthy team....or just a team healthier than last year.

[Admin]

Only a fool would compare JT the PG to any of those guys. He isnt in the same league as a pure PG as any of them and you didnt need to do research to know that.

However, compare him with Marbury, Bibby, Cassell, Strickland, Stoudamire, Jason Williams.......and then show us those numbers. All of them have proven to be successful PGs and are perfectly fine running a team and so is JT.

[KB21]

There are too many variables that go into an assist that you can't base a point guard's ability on the assists he gets. If the point puts the pass in perfect position for the player to score, and the player misses the shot. No assist. If the player stands there and bounces the ball more than 2 times, no assist.

You can't categorize a point guard's job as a player who is just a passer either.

The main job and the main attribute of a pure point guard is the ability to make those around him better. Whether that is setting the offense up and making great, fundamental passes like John Stockton or if it is being the main scoring threat and taking the pressure off those around him like Gary Payton.

Which of these PGs would you rather have:

PG 1:

13.5 ppg

4.9 apg

2.2 spg

1.8 topg

3.4 rpg

49.4% FG %

20.6% 3P %

PG 2:

19.3 ppg

5.7 apg

3.5 rpg

1.8 spg

2.3 topg

43.0% FG %

38.7 3P %

PG 1 is Gary Payton in his 3rd year. PG 2 is Jason Terry in his third year.

[chillzatl]

His APG didn't just jump up all of a sudden at the mid-point of the season. He slowly and gradually brought them up. In the last month of the season it was near 8 apg. Your "system" only calculates the totals. It doesn't take into account the real world improvement that took place. Re-do your calculation over the last month of the season and lets see how those numbers look. He didn't/hasn't become a overnight master of the pg spot. But the numbers clearly show he evolved and improved at the position by the week. 7-8 APG is far beyond the "simple assist" realm that you've mentioned before.

Also you gloss over your own numbers here. You say that there wasn't much of a rise in assist in the 2nd half % wise. Well there was more of a rise there than in offense, which you incorrectly pointed out. 1.3% compared to 3.7%. He was looking to pass the ball more. If you look at his numbers in the last month when he was pulling near 8apg he certainly looks more like a PG. Who cares if he's a "pure pg" or not. That's nothing but magazine hype for guys who are first rate passers but lack some scoring ability.

[JTFan31]

Basically the impression I get from Diesel is that he wants to trade JT to start Dickau, Am I right? Lets say we do that ok Diesel. Oh damn we miss the playoffs again another year wasted, and things aint getting better neither. This will be Diesel in 2 years id we do trade JT to start Dickau

"Ok guys I was wrong, Dickau was a bust, but I mean after all he was the 29thpick of the draft, what do you expect from a 29th pick, did you really expect stardom"," I sure which we had JT back here in Atlanta"

While in the meanwhile JT is kicking in his new squad, and becoming an allstar. Chucks Diesel is that a bummer. Knowing Diesel he will start saying another bad move by Babs, but in reality if Diesel was the Hawks GM, he would of traded JT already, probably for Spree.

[Diesel]

You misread.

The discussion is Pure PG.

There were some who felt that JT can "run" the offense like a Pure PG. I am of the opinion that JT is more of a SG playing at the 1 position that a PG. I put up the numbers of some pure PGS so you can see the difference.

I will be happy to put up the numbers of others later:

Marbury, Bibby, Cassell, and those others listed above.

However, It's not about Dickau... He may just be a BU... It's about exactly what is JT.

Also, Later, I might look at JT's last month too.

But the question...

Can JT run the offense (get others the ball). Compared to PUre PGs like Miller and Kidd the answer is NO. Compared to PGs who he should emulate (GP and Davis) the answer is still NO.

I think he has to get his apg% up to about 35% of the teams Apg.

[Guest]

JT can get the job done just as much or Sam Cassell or

Steve Nash and those type of guys.Not that Jason Kidd

has got to the finals now everyone is on the pur PG kick

again.

JT will be fine at PG.he is gunna put up numbers anyway.And

if about 15 games into the season we feel JT can run the point

then look for a trade.But we haven't even given him a shot

FULL SEASON.

[Diesel]

Is that you are only looking at one half of the equation.....

Tell me, if I were to say we ought to consider trading JT...

What do you think about?

Do you only think about DD playing the POINT??

Is that all you see.

Does your mind flash to:

DD/Glover/DJ/SAR/Theo??

Obviously, your minute thinking is not alone.

However let me introduce the other side of the equation.

WE WOULD GET SOMETHING BACK!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not talking about half a season of Manning or Rider.

I'm not talking about a possible lottery pick.

When I say we get something back, I'm talking about a 2 or 3 that is WORTHY of us making the trade in the first place.

Again, I would only entertain trading JT if in the outcome, we have a better team.

That means that I will not trade JT for Mike Miller.

I will not trade JT For Mike Dunleavy Jr.

I will not trade JT for Jason Richardson.

I definitely will not trade him for OLD MAN Spreewell.

However, I would trade JT in a trade that:

1. Helps us cut the fat of some of these unwanted Contracts.

2. Bring us an allstar caliber 2/3.

That's the other side of the coin.

So what does that mean....

I might consider JT/CC for Lewis.

I would consider JT/Hendu/CC for Davis/Bonzi.

I would consider JT/Hendu for Matrix Outlaw.

I would consider JT/Hendu for Jones.

I would consider JT/Hendu for Ray Allen.

Just brainstorming... But the bottomline is that IF in 2 yrs we didn't make the playoffs...

I wouldn't think that it was because of Dickau. I would have to blame coaching. Because with SAR/Theo/ and whoever we brought in to replace JT.... We should have enough offense to win something. No one man can take a team to the playoffs and no one man can cause a team not to go either.... EXCEPT the Coach.

[JTFan31]

Oh yea Bonzi, Lewis and Jones are really allstar material right? Not. Those guys have games that they slack off, also who would be our leader, definitely not any of them, and Reef is not really a leader himself. None of those 3 guys and not even Ray Allen are leaders or have any heart the way JT has, JT is a winner and he comes to play night in and night out. Second of all I wouldnt give JT/hendu for neither Allen, Jones, Matrix (because outlaw is an old fart already). Third of all I certianly wont give JT/hendu/cc for Davis and Bonzi. Bonzi has no heart and he is a slacker, definitely not an allstar caliber player and Davis, well Davis is old and cant hit free throws.

Question for you Diesel: (and for anyone else who wants to answer it.

Would you trade JT/CC for Miles/Harold Jamison?

[Guest]

Hell no.

[Guest]

If we trade JT these are the guys I'd like it to be for:

Elton Brand19/11 player

Lamar Odom IF he didn't have the problems he does

Michael Finley?I might have to consider it.....Dallas wouldn't

The real list of possibilites is limited....There are other guys but

none of realyl know JT's value in a trade.IT depends on how

the GM's look at him.

[BlackHawkDown]

Why is everyone so obsesses about this pure point gaurd crap. Other than NJ and SAC no team with a pure point did anything. Miller didn't win a game last year, probably because the Cavs were garbage. Magic, Isaih and maybe Kenny Smith are the only Pure Points that lead their teams to a championship. 9 of the last 12 champs ran the Triangle which doesn't really require a PG at all. This Pure PG thing is just another Fad like Europlayers. The best thing to do is have a team that can dominate not worry about purity at any position other than Center.

[Diesel]

First....

Why do you say SAR is not really a Leader?

Because he's not always parked in front of a MIC??

Please.

Leadership is not what you say... It's do people follow you..

That being the standard, SAR is the leader and has been since he got here.

Ex.

Glover wouldn't work out with JT when JT would spend extra reps in the gym...

SAR gets Glover and Dj to work out with him all summer.

Ex.

DJ didn't do a wonderful job of gaining weight his first yr here.

SAR puts DJ with his personal Chef and works out with DJ and DJ comes in this yr 12-15 pounds heavier.

Ex.

Offseason used to be a time for Hendu to work on his record business. Theo to sit out with his strain calf. CC to travel the globe with his wife. JT to work out alone. Glover to play his playstation 2. DJ to go to Summerleagues in LA and look good.

Well, SAR has called for voluntary mandatory practice sessions and every HAWK player and wannabe shows up.

AGAIN, What makes you think that SAR is not the Leader of the Hawks?? Is it because he's not always parked in front of a Microphone??

Leaders don't need C's on their uniforms and they don't need to constently tell people that they are the leader. They are the leader because people follow them.

Sadly, it has become Envogue for many hear to say that SAR is not the leader... However when you examine the facts, SAR has shown more leadership since he has been a Hawk than JT could in 12 yrs.

Secondly.

Would I trade JT/CC for Jamison/Miles.... NO.

I don't see the greatness in Miles. He's a good dunker. He's young but I don't see much more than that. Sorta like Harold Miner a few yrs ago. Until Miles develop a midrange shot, then he's a waste for us.

Interesting is what will Cleveland do with JJones? I would love to have him. He and Miles have the same game but I believe that JJ is a little better scorer. I wonder if we can trade Email/1st for JJ??

[Diesel]

Nash, Bibby, Kidd all did well last yr.

Snow helped Philly go all the way 2 yrs ago.

[Traceman]

than ANY PG in the NBA! Put JT on either of those teams and they would be at least as good if not better than they are now.

Kidd is not only the best PG in the NBA, he's one of the best players. He is good enough by himself to make almost any team a playoff contender.

[Guest Walter]

...in the last month of the season and have his stats (whole season, half season, and last month of the season, I assume) compared against the Marbury's and other Pgs (see post in this thread asking for them if you want specific names) in the league (other than the Jason Kidds of the league).

While I don't hold out much hope that these statistics will be very informative either way as to whether JT is or isn't a "pure Pg" or that JT's status as a "pure Pg" is that important, I assume that this information would be important to analyze if you are to have any credible argument based solely upon statistics.

Otherwise, I and other can only construe your refusal as an admition of JT's "pure Pg-ness".

W

[Guest]

SAR has his leadership qualities, don't get me wrong, but in my opinion, when on the court and during games, JT is the one that provides the fire (and I shudder to use the analogy, but much like bibby did with Sac. last year, esp. with Webber and the "just get me the ball I'll make it" shot).

I would rather have JT than Bibby (though it's close and their games are somewhat similar), but Bibby's attitude in the fourth was exactly what Sac. lacked...in that regards, I think the combo of JT and SAR is very comparable to bibby and CWebb...very similar. Sac. just has more talent on the rest of the team than we currently do. If anything, I think that the Hawks should look at Sac's lineup and see the similarities/ way that we could improve.

As for the JJ for Dion/1st trade. very interesting. I think I'd bite on that one.

[Guest]

So you say, JT is the one that gets the players all fired up and that makes him more a leader than SAR who works with players to improve their game, their attitude, and this organization...

Hmm....

By your standards, ML CARR must have been one helluva leader. I mean the way he would wave the big towel must have been the reason why the Celtics would rally during Rally time.

My poor friend,

The things that SAR does and have done is more beneficial to the organization than the being able to fire up the team. I look to the progression of DJ and the building of overall team chemistry as being far more important than someone who uses words as a means to try to motivate.

You're looking past the General who is leading the armies and you are giving the BUGAL player all the credit.