Reef VS. KG....

[Diesel]

OK, since you said KG and Webber, let's start with KG.

http://www.nba.com/games/20020105/MINATL/boxscore.html

KG: 22points, 14 rebs, 8 assists 10 of 18 shooting.

Reef: 20 points, 7 rebs, 6 assists, 8 of 21 shooting.

Again, we only have 1 game to put forward with these two playing. YOu said that Reef folds to KG? Where?? 20, 7, and 6 is almost better than what KG claims makes him worthy of being paid 21 million dollars a yr?

Also, 20, 7, and 6 is not bad by anyone's standards for a PF.

So much for Folding???

[Guest]

Do you watch any games?I did and when they went one on one

Reef was clearly out matched.Again you try your best to put

Reef in the same class as these guys,but if Reef was as good

as them we would win.We all know Duncan/KG has fairly subpar

supporting casts but they win games inthe west and we lose

games in the east.As I said Diesel go throw these compares around

the net and watch how much you get clowned.

And as you see below KG got the best of Reef.But more importanly

KG has bigger impacts on games.

[Diesel]

I saw one of the Minn games, I think it was one where Reef didn't play. However, Are you saying the Numbers LIE? Are you saying that 20, 7, and 6 are numbers that suggest that he folded to KG?

Please.

You have been on SAR's back all yr in many post you talk about how he folds to KG and Webber. Is this folding? What do you want?? Does he have to go out and score 50 every time?? Unlike KG, our offense isn't built around SAR yet. But you would be a fool to continue arguing that SAR is not top 10 in the league and the TOP PF in the East.

Your choice for Best PF in the East played KG too.

http://www.nba.com/games/20020315/INDMIN/boxscore.html

Oneal: 15 points, 7 rebs, and 4 assists.

Again, that's OK... BUt how does it compare to 20, 7, and 6?

[Guest]

Unlike KG, our offense isn't built around SAR yet."

That's why he was one of two guys that averaged

double figures is it?What do you mean...yet...didn't

you claim Big Dog will be our first option?

Shaq

Duncan

Kobe

Iverson

Paul Pierce

Webber

Kidd

Payton

Garnett

Carter

Dirk

"But you would be a fool to continue arguing that SAR is not

top 10 in the league and the TOP PF in the East."

Again post this around the net and you get clowned easy.

Who on this list is Shareef better than?Hell the guy just

cracked his first allstar(as a reserve)and he is a top

10 player?lol

"I saw one of the Minn games, I think it was one where Reef didn't play. "

Exactually...I saw the game and when the two when one on one you

could tell who the better player was.Of course KG being 3 inches taller

was a big part of that.

How does the top PF not grab 10 rebounds?How does the top PF

not play defense?How does a top 10 player miss the playoffs

in the weak east?Top 10 players find ways to WIN GAMES.Guess

what....Reef has yet to do that.Top 10 players WIN.

Are you really stupid enough to believe he is top 10 player?Who

the hell would believe this other than about 3 people on this

board?Other that scoring...Reef is GREAT at nothing...his defense

is subpar,his passing isn't there yet,his rebounding isn't all that

great considering we have very few rebounders on the team.

Reef brings toughness(atleast in my opinion)and good all round

OFFENSIVE scoring game.But he lacks the defense AND isn't a

top rebounder either and his passing isn't great either.

As for folding,quit avoilding the point that Reef dissapears in the

4th period so YES he does fold in the 4th period and it is even

worse since we don't win.

KG does basically everything well while Shareef is supbar in defense

/passing.

Get over it...only you and maybe two other people on the board believe

Reef is a top 10 players.Top 10 players win.The top PF in the conference

should atleast crack double figures in rebounding.

Oh and look....the Pacers won that game while we droped both games

to Minnesota....

You really need to watch the games alot more.You can see the difference

in talent levels...or atleast most people can.

[thecampster]

he means a top 10 power forward...not top ten player...geeshhh.

and SAR is a top 10 power forward. Arguably but not definately the best PF in the east.

How does he not get 10 boards...easy...no center to help ever. It's him against 2 on most boards. Being the main or 2nd option on offense keeps the rebound numbers down. Playing on teams with bad exterior defenses keep rebounds down. Made jumpers means no rebound. Did you see how ridiculously high Deke's rebound numbers were when they played with Mookie's atlanta. He was always a quality rebounder, but with bad jump shots flying all over the place, defensive rebound numbers flourish. Deke went up from 11.5 rebounds a game in his first 3 seasons in Atlanta to 14.1 the last 2 years. why? did he get better overnight...no!!!..better perimeter defense.

Now look at the Hawks perimeter D last year or better yet while SAR was in Vancouver. My guess is that with Ratliff commanding more attention, less low post double teams and DJ at the two and Terry moved to the 1 providing better perimeter D, He should go up to about 11 boards a game....or maybe I'm wrong.

But since when was 9 rebounds a game bad for a PF...that's pretty darn good isn't it. He's rated 18th in the league in Rebounds/game. 16th among forwards. 18th among forwards for assists/game (Most are SF on the list). 11th among forwards in Points. 11th in Assists. 21st in blocks.

He does have the 4th worst turnover number, but the 3 worse than him are Karl Malone, Tim Duncan, Antoine Walker, and the 2 with a couple turnovers less are Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. That's pretty darn good company to be in. Now remember these numbers are for all forwards both power and Small and includes tweener Centers and Guards like vince Carter and Jermaine Oneal.

So to recap.

among forwards and tweeners

11th in points

16th in rebounds

18th in assists

11th in steals

21st in blocks

against the entire league

20th in points (95.4 percentile - or better than 95.4 % of NBA players)

18th in rebounds (95.9 percentile)

67th in assists (84.9)(as a power forward this is crazy)

36th in steals (91.9)(once again nuts for a PF)

46th in blocks (89.6)

This is out of 444 players who got on the floor in the NBA last year.

and we've eliminated the bad handles turnover argument unless you want to drop Duncan, Malone and Garnett too.

So how is he not a top 10 PF or maybe even all around Forward?

[Guest]

Did you not see my lis above?I had him as a top 10 PF but

he isn;t even close to being a top 10 player.

9RPG isn't impressive for a guy that is on a bad rebounding

team.Our team played less defense the year Mutombo was

traded but he was averging 14RPG that year.

"Being the main or 2nd option on offense keeps the rebound

numbers down"

That didn't keep O'Neal/Webber/KG/Duncan rebounds down.

"y guess is that with Ratliff commanding more attention, less

low post double teams and DJ at the two and Terry moved to

the 1 providing better perimeter D, He should go up to about

11 boards a game....or maybe I'm wrong."

Well Theo is a worse rebounder than Nazr is.Nazr averages 8RPG

in 28MPG while Theo averages 8.5RPG in like 37MPG.Theo doesn't

help us in the rebounding department.

"But since when was 9 rebounds a game bad for a PF...that's pretty

darn good isn't it."

It's not overpowering.As I said,besides scoring Reef isn't great at anything.

And guys like O'Neal can play PF or center....That gives alot of extra

value when a PF is 6'11 and can play center equally aswell.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

"Being the main or 2nd option on offense keeps the rebound

numbers down"

That didn't keep O'Neal/Webber/KG/Duncan rebounds down.

---

Wow, so you are saying that Webber, KG, and Duncan are second options on offense?

About these rebounds, SAR has NO help. I mean, Nazr is a good rebounder but he only plays 26 mpg. That means that for the most part, SAR is out there all alone battling for Boards. You call him undersized, so as an undersized PF, he's battling against Pf and Cs for boards and he does very very well thank you.

[Guest]

Actually you need to read it again....

"Being the main or 2nd option"

"Being the main"

You can watch the games and see what a guy does or

doesn't have the talent to do.Reef doesn't have wait

it takes to be a 25/11/4 player.He's good,but he simply

isn't THAT talented.

You keep coming up with excuses for everthing....Who helps

KG rebound.,...Gary Trent?Wally World?

My opinion is not changing and it shouldn't change.Reef is a good

PF,but he isn't the best in the east(a close 2nd)and he isn't a top

10 player in the NBA.

Most people say Walker is the better player and PF because he is

triple double threat.

[thecampster]

Let's try this again. He never said/meant top ten player in the NBA....he said/meant top 10 Power Forward.

Neither am I contending he's a top ten player in the league. But he might be close to a top ten Forward not just power forward. We're not the ones comparing him wrong, you are.

You're comparing him to 4/5 players. Reef is a 3/4. Duncan/KG...4/5's. But 9 boards for a 3/4 is exceptional.

In the 5 main statiscal categories (reb, pts, st, bl and assist), he ranks

18th, 20th, 36th, 46th and 67th.

Now realizing there are 29 teams out there (a total of 145 starting position players) and that 2 of these categories are almost exclusive to guards (steals/assists) and 1 to Centers (blocks) you start to marvel at the complete player. In rebounds and points he is 18 - 20th. in Steals a category mostly for guards of which there are 58 starting guards in the NBA he's 36th. Blocks for centers, of which there are 29 starters, he ranks 46...so out of the 116 starters left he's 17th. IN assists with once again 58 starting guards, he's 67th or about 9th out of the 87 players left...if you have a kernal of basketball sense realize his importance.

No, he isn't top 10 all around in the NBA, but he is top 25. I challenge you to find 25 better all around players. Rank the top 25 NBA'ers you can think of and I'll pick my impression of the worst five from that group to compare him to. Till then quick ripping on SAR.

[Guest]

There is a difference....O'neal/TD/KG are versitile(sp?)while

Shareef is closer to a tweener.Those three guys can guard

different positions.But if you put Reef at SF he is going to

give up more than he gets for sure.

I never said isn't a top 25 player.I'd rank him around 19th.BUT

considering what we gave up for him and the fact that he is

getting 12 million he should be alittle better.

67 46 36.....nothing really great.

Diesel surely is pushing him toward being a top 10 player but

saying that he could get us Tmac(laughable)so how do you

know Diesel isn't saying Reef is a top 10 player?

[Diesel]

Some say that Toni Kukoc is versatile. Some say that he's a tweener. What exactly is the difference? You don't know because if you were happy with SAR you'd call him versatile like the rest. Versatile means that SAR can play the SF or the PF and not be bad at either one. To you that's tweener? Ha. SAR has been an ALLSTAR PF and would easily be an allstar Sf. But to you that's tweener?

IN our beloved sport of Basketball, a tweener at SF, PF is a guy too slow to play Sf and Too small to play PF. Unfortunately for your weak argument, Reef is an ALLSTAR PF, Best in the East.... AND over his career of playing SF/PF, he has maintained an average of 20ppg/9 rpg. IN other words, you're wrong. He's just as versatile as KG or Duncan.

[Admin]

While I wouldnt take Reef over either of them because Garnett and Duncan can both play the 5, they arent much better in my book than Reef is. To me they are all 3 great players and there is a huge difference between being versatile and being a tweener.

[Guest]

LIke I said,Reef is too slow on defense at SF but undersized at

PF.Reef wasn't a allstar at either position out west.He is the

2nd best PF in the east at best and the east has a huge lack

of big men.

Reef at SF is a big part of the reason that Grizz team gave up

110PPG.

"he has maintained an average of 20ppg/9 rpg"

Well how much does it really matter in the west when you are

giving up more than you are getting?Do you understand the game

at all?He gave up more than he got.Not to mention he doesn't

step up his game when needed.

Kukoc is strictly a SF.There is nothing Power in his game.

"He's just as versatile as KG or Duncan."

How?they are all team defensive players and Reef is not.A couple

of people are being pure out biased.

Versatile means that SAR can play the SF or the PF and not be bad at either one. "

Reef is a fairly bad SF considering he will give up more than he gets

at the position.How good are you really when you are giving up more

than you are getting??

You are biased.

[Diesel]

Reef wasn't an allstar out west...

#1 because Vancouver was a very small Market. No coverage at all for Reef. #2, KG, Duncan, Webber, Malone. all rested in bigger markets and were worthy as well. However, ask any expert and they will tell you that SAR was deserving of Allstar nominations.

Secondly, Who is better than SAR? ONeal? Please. IF we would have traded SAR for Oneal straight up last yr, Oneal would probably be a 10 ppg PF. He could not have played against the CONSTANT double team that Reef did. IN Indiana, Reef would have averaged close to 30. His offense combined with Miller and Rose to take the pressure off of him! Damn. YOu should be laughed at for insisting that JT and Ira are comparable to Miller and Rose.

:lol

ANywho. Watch what happens with SAR and THE BIG DOG! They will become one of the best SF/PF tandems in the history of the game.

[Guest]

"#1 because Vancouver was a very small Market. No

coverage at all for Reef. #2, KG, Duncan, Webber,

Malone. all rested in bigger markets and were worthy

as well. However, ask any expert and they will tell you

that SAR was deserving of Allstar nominations."

Besides,Reef playted SF in Vancouver.....TD/Webber/

Malone don't play that position.

Sounds like a excuse to me.Everyone knows his defense

is the worst in the west at SF.110PPG gaven up as you

said.....That tells the story and I was warned by many

Vancouver fans about his defense and lack of impact

when it counted the most.

ANywho. Watch what happens with SAR and THE BIG DOG!

They will become one of the best SF/PF tandems in the history

of the game."

lol you have problems dude.

You need to be honest with yourself about Reef's impact.IF we

hadn't moved JT back to PG we wouldn't have won even 25 games

this year.We would have been worse than we were last year.

Hell alot of people rejected the idea of SAR/pick for Ray Allen.Those

at clutchcity suggested we aren't giving up enough.

Maybe you can email Chad Ford and get him to get some "inside"info.lol

[thecampster]

If SAR was playing Small Forward exclusively in Vancouver, who played the Power Forward and Center?

I highly doubt you're blaming Vancouver's defensive problems solely on SAR.

But to counter your ridiculous claim of 110 points per game...

Here are there team stats

00-01 season Griz 91.7 OPP 97.5

99-00 season Griz 93.9 Opp 99.5

Now, the startin lineup for both squads.

C - Big Country

PF - Othella Harrington

SF - SAR

SG - Dickerson

PG - Bibby

Now there's a defensive stallwort of a Team. Shaq turns, fakes...ooooooohhhhhhhh rejected by Big Country. I don't think so. Malone goes middle...Harrington cuts him off...Please. Payton drives the lane...stripped by Bibby...Laughable. Kobe shoots again....short..I think Dickerson got a piece of that...NOT. You're blaming this squad giving up 99 a game on Shareef...you've got to be kidding me.

Now I'm sure Diesel has a trade worked out in his brain somewhere for Harrington (joke dude, don't give Babs any ideas, we all know he reads this board for inspiration) but would you trot that lineup out to stop Orlando....me neither.

In short Hotlanta, I keep throwing numbers and you keep throwing insults. Why not put a little thought into it before you claim things like SAR is the source of all the bad defense ever played in Vancouver.

SAR is a stud. A top 25 NBA'er. An Eastern Conference allstar and you'll be the first to ride his jock when he's throwing down on Jermaine O'neal in the second round of the playoffs. Present facts with numbers to back them up and quit throwing out ridiculous numbers like 110 pts a game.

[Guest]

Present facts with numbers to back them up and quit throwing

out ridiculous numbers like 110 pts a game."

That was Diesels claim!I should have looked myself!lol he overdone

Van stats to try and prove his theory correct on why Van was

worse than us while Reef was there.Unfreakin believeable.I should

have looked myself!

Harrington/Big Hick were the center and pf for Vancouver and don't

forget Grant Long.

" Why not put a little thought into it before you claim things like SAR is

the source of all the bad defense ever played in Vancouver."

I had a pretty good source from Van fans that I talked to when the

trade was made last year.They warned about Shareef's lack of clutch

and defense(although I think it is closer to average at PF)

Truth hurt does it?If we hadn't moved JT back to PG we would have

been worse than Memphis this year....Go figure.

[thecampster]

Personally, Vancouver was horrible. Fact that SAR showed up to play night in and night out speaks volumes for him.

I hate player hatin. I really do. We could sit and pick apart anyone really. Hell, we could diss Kobe for the time Demarr shut him down but that'd be insane.

Fact is that Reef is an all around player.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Being that you are unfamiliar with the way that the Allstar game works

---

They don't always have 2 PFs, 2 SFs in the allstar game. What normally happens is that that they have forwards.

In 2001, here's the west squad:

Kobe Bryant

Lakers G 6-7 22 Passed up final shot?

Kobe was not spectacular until the final minute, when he hit three big shots, including one with big Dikembe in his face. Alas, with Mutombo there again and a few ticks remaining, he passed to Duncan. Kobe ended with team-highs of 19 points, seven assists. Grade: A-

Vlade Divac

Kings C 7-1 33 Made most of short minutes

Divac was probably just happy to be here, but in his nine minutes he hit 4 of 6 shots for eight points and made some nice plays on defense. He was schooled by Marbury's hidden ball trick, but got revenge with a steal and slam. A solid nine minutes. Grade: B

Tim Duncan

Spurs F 7-0 24 Only double-double of game

Duncan had 12 points by halftime, and seemed on his way to another MVP award with his team up big. But Duncan hit only one shot after the break, and had the potential winner blocked by the considerably shorter Carter. An A through three quarters, but ...

Grade: B

Michael Finley

Mavericks G 6-7 28 We know Cuban was smiling

Finley had a bad shooting game, missing 10 of 15 shots, but did get 12 points and five assists in 19 minutes. Call him a ball hog, but his team was up big, so who cared? Was 1 of 8 after halftime. Grade: B-

Kevin Garnett

T-Wolves F 6-11 24 Did a few tricks, always smiling

Garnett's numbers weren't the story, though they were fine (14 points, 7 of 12 FG). He was always looking for either the alley-oop or the alley-oop pass, and a few of them worked out. His dunk off a Kobe backboard pass drew raves. Grade: B+

Jason Kidd

Suns G 6-4 28 Beaten by Iverson in fourth

Kidd's numbers don't show it, but his defense down the stretch (as if Iverson can be stopped) hurt. Kidd hit three threes, had 11 points and five steals, but also five turnovers. He also drained a halfcourt shot. Grade: B

Karl Malone

Jazz F 6-9 37 Let the young guys run

Do we give Karl an incomplete score? Nah, we're not that nice. Malone only played four minutes, likely at his request since he never cares for this event, and missed both his shots for a big zero. But we'd rather see KG or Rasheed anyway. Grade: C

A. McDyess

Nuggets F 6-9 26 Nearly another double-double

Scoreless with only two boards at the break, McDyess had a nice second half, including a special rebound, follow and hammer dunk as the third quarter ended. Finished with eight points, eight boards and proved he belonged here. Grade: B+

Gary Payton

Sonics G 6-4 32 Not the normal GP numbers

Payton missed all five shots he attempted, which is bad, but he did contribute five assists, four boards and a pair of steals. Last year was his All-Star game (at home in Oakland), and he was happy to let others do the work tonight. Grade: C

David Robinson

Spurs C 7-1 35 Productive in small role

Robinson didn't do anything wrong, he just wasn't on the court enough to change the game's outcome. Got 10 minutes of time in his 10th All-Star game, with eight points and four rebounds. Grade: B-

Rasheed Wallace

Trail Blazers F 6-11 26 Awful, but no technicals!

Wallace, who got a big cheer from the crowd since he played here once upon a time, missed six of seven shots in his gracious 21 minutes, adding four rebounds. He even tried a three. Should've stuck to the matchups in the paint. Grade: C

Chris Webber

Kings F 6-10 27 Aggressive game, solid results

Webber had 14 points and nine rebounds, the final one just before the buzzer (though his shot was late). Nice moment came when he bricked a 22-footer but Duncan grabbed the board and Webber tried to tell all it was a pass. Former Bullet still loved here. Grade: B

Webber, KG, Malone, Mcdyess, Duncan were your fowards. Now in that year, SAR was better than Malone and McDyess... However, who gets more coverage... Vancouver or Utah? Vancouver or Denver? Small Market. That is why Vancouver is no longer in existence today. Small market.

[Guest]

How come Malone goes to the playoffs and Reef don't?Denver

is a big market?This team won 10 games a few years ago.Dice

is better than Shareef IF HEALTHY.He is more atheletic/better

rebounder/better defender/shot blocker while they are even

scorers and Reef probably is a better passer is a better ft

shooter.

WHile you make a decent arguement here,Reef wasn't better

than Malone then.You are overrating him again.

It is all coming down to were you rate Shareef and some on

this board are rating him too high.I am a Hawk fan,but I am

not a homer.I realize how players aren't the greatest and

none of them are top 15 players.I really don't hate Shareef

because he is a good person.You are just overrating him.

If Malone was 26 years old and putting up the numbers he

did 3 years ago I would have took him over Shareef.Because

he was the better player then but he was still old even 3 years

ago.Hell it's questionable by some of Shareef is better than

Malone now.Although,I'd give Shareef the slight edge.