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The Welfare mentality of some H. Fans

Diesel

By Diesel
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Diesel Grand Master

Diesel

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When people say...

Let's trade Al for a pick and an ending contract.

When people say....

Let's trade Al for Nene...

Then I think it's pretty obvious that there are some here who would trade Al just to make room for the others...

Just look up Logjam on Hawksquawk and see how many people talk about moving Al as a means to clear up the "logjam"...

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chillzatl Newbie

chillzatl

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I've seen the nene proposals. Heck, I think you were one of the first to throw out Nene and Watson for Al. which oddly enough, meets the need. Which is what trading him is all about.

I don't recall anyone here proposing that we trade him for a pick and an ending contract. I'm pretty sure that if anyone did, it was based on us being forced into an SnT so that we don't lose out completely.

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Nicholasp27 Newbie

Nicholasp27

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al for nene isn't to just 'make room for others'

it is based on the fact that our biggest needs are true defensive pg and defensive big...if we can get either of those in a trade for al, then great...we can try the draft for the other one

al for miller + pick would be best case

we'd draft defensive big first, go for either a future pg or another defensive big with the 2nd one; bpa in 2nd round

then we'd go after nene/pryz in the offseason

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Diesel Grand Master

Diesel

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The fact that he tore his ACL and missed all of this season... Is a good start.

Let me remind you of something. Theo.

We traded for Theo.. He was suppose to play for us by the end of the season. The end of the season because 1 season and a half...

Look at Boozer now.

Look at the career of Penny and GHill..

When you take damaged Goods, that what you get is damaged goods...

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Lascar78 Newbie

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Whatever man, are you forgetting that Al played only 44 games in 01-02. You're forgetting that Al missed 16 games last year. Any player can have injuries. Nene's injuries are much more typical of freak injuries rather than chronic ones. Habitual tendinitis is a nagging problem that goes away, and I would be at least as concerned about Al's knees than I would about Nene. It is not normal for him to look like he's running around on a 50 year old's knees out there at age 26 or however old he is. It's like Webber, he'll just slow down more and more and jump less and less high.

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TheNorthCydeRises Grand Master

TheNorthCydeRises

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Quote:

Quote:

Teams in last place need to make changes so they won't be in last place any more.

This is a welfare mind set. We need to make changes just to do something. Nevermind that we have been highly competitive against everyone we have played with the exception of the first Washington game and the Phoenix, Miami games.

I mean really.. from night to night, I can truly say that the Hawks can win. There's no team that we have played that I have said during the game in some point, there is no way we can beat this team. That's a lot of progress from last yr and the year before.

But the Welfare mind says... Start over again.

"Teams in last place need to make changes so they won't be in last place any more."

- Exodus... welfare minded.

Diesel obviously doesn't understand the concept of welfare.

People on welfare get into that situation in the first place for a variety of circumstances. Nobody likes to be on welfare, but some don't see any other way to get out of the system. Sure, you can work your way off of welfare, but will you find a good enough paying job to get you off of it. And in the meantime, who will watch your kids? That's why a lot of the people on welfare, just give up and keep things status quo. They may try a little to get out of the system. But in the end, they don't want to put forth the effort and the time to get out, and just settle for what they can get. Those are just some of the issues involving welfare.

So in actuality, YOU'RE the one with the welfare mentality. You're the one that want us to stick with Al, evne though we've won 10 games out of 36. Exodus made a great point when he stated that.

People that want to get off of welfare tend to do extreme things in order to make their situation better. If we do keep Al, that's keeping things the same.

People on welfare don't constantly "start over", they constantly keep things the same. In fact, people on welfare get comfortable with where they are, even if it means that they're barely making it through life.

Keeping Al means that the Hawks aren't willing to take any more chances, and are content with being where they are now.
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TheNorthCydeRises Grand Master

TheNorthCydeRises

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As a Cincinnati Bengals fan, I watched that organization get out of the "welfare" state, when they brought in Marvin Lewis.

2002 Bengals:

- finished 2 - 14 and essentially hit rock bottom.

Summer of 2003:

- Bengals go outside of the organization, and hire Marvin Lewis. The Bengals owner, Mike Brown, had a tradition of hiring guys that either played for his father, Paul Brown, or coached with the Bengals as an assistant at some point in the past. Mikey was loyal to a fault.

- Also that summer, Lewis tries to convince star linebacker Takeo Spikes to stay on the team. Takeo, tired of the losing, decides that he's not waiting to see if Marvin can change things, and goes to Buffalo.

Fall of 2003:

- star RB Corey Dillon pulls a hamstring early in the season, giving Rudi Johnson a chance to start. He makes the most of his chance. Dillon comes back at midseason and retains his starting job. But Rudi, because he ran so well in Corey's absence, still gets about 10 - 12 carries a game. This doesn't sit well with Corey.

End of 2003 season:

- Dillon pretty much expresses his desire to be traded. Bengals trade him to the Patriots for a 2nd round pick, which turns out to be safety Madieu Williams out of Maryland.

- Bengals finish 8 - 8, posting their first non-losing season in 13 years.

2004 season:

- Jon Kitna, the winner of the NFL Comeback Player of the Year award, and who also tossed 26 TDs and 15 INTs, was benched at the start of the season, in favor of 2nd year QB, and #1 pick Carson Palmer. Palmer struggles through 1/2 of the year, casting doubt on why the Bengals didn't just stick with Kitna. Palmer shows flashes of greatness by season's end, and gives people a glimpse of what to expect out of him in the future.

- Rudi Johnson, who took over for Dillon, breaks the team single-season rushing mark held by Dillon.

- Bengals finish 8 - 8 for the 2nd year in a row.

2005 NFL Draft:

- Bengals take 2 Georgia defensive standouts in the first 2 rounds. DE David Pollack and LB Odell Thurman. They will become the cornerstones of the Bengals defense in the future.

2005 season:

- Bengals cut decent, but disappointing and oft-injured WR, Peter Warrick before the start of the season, because he couldn't get healthy. T.J. Houshmanzedah and Chris Henry become the #2 and #3 receivers. Combined, they would catch 109 balls for over 1,300 yards.

- Rudi Johnson, once again, rushes for over 1,400 yards, the first Bengal to ever do that.

- While Pollack got all of the preseason accolades, it was Odell Thurman that looks like the future defensive star, finishing 3rd in the Defensive ROY. 109 tackles, 5 INTs, and 5 forced fumbles.

- Carson Palmer blossoms into a top 3 QB in the league, throwing for 32 TDs, 12 INTs, and over 3,800 yards

- Bengals go 11 - 5 and make the playoffs for the first time since 1990.

I state all of this, Hawk fans, to illustrate how a team can cut or get rid of TALENTED players for a bad to mediocre team, and get even BETTER players either via the draft, or via free agency.

Sometimes, you have to let those good players go, in order to play guys with potentially more talent.

Let me ask you guys this, that are for Al staying a Hawk.

If there were a 50/50 chance that either Marvin or Smoove could become even better than Al by the start of the 2007 season, would you take those odds?

What about 40/60?

30/70?

even 25/75?

While I compare Al to Wally Szczerbiak in the fact that both guys are good offensive players that play lousy defense. Another good comparison to Al, is a guy like Jalen Rose.

If you switch to football, you can also compare Al to a guy like Jon Kitna. Kitna has always been a good enough QB to survive in this league. He was the last QB to lead the Seahawks to the playoffs ( trivia for you guys ).

But Kitna's "kryptonite" has always been his arm strength. He's a "throw to a spot" QB, not a "throw the ball on a rope straight to the receiver" QB.

In the playoff game this year, Carson's only pass was a 66 yard bomb to Chris Henry that was right on target. Kitna could NEVER throw a pass like that.

And that's the major case against keeping Al here, and suppressing guys like Smoove and Marvin. Athletically, they're both superior to Al. Smoove is the better defender, while Marvin may have better overall tools.

Al is undoubtely better than both Smooth and Marvin right now. But would keeping Al, be like the Bengals keeping Kitna at QB . . when you have "potential" in Carson Palmer on the bench?

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joannes3000 Newbie

joannes3000

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Let me ask you guys this, that are for Al staying a Hawk.

But would keeping Al, be like the Bengals keeping Kitna at QB . . when you have "potential" in Carson Palmer on the bench?

Sort of. It's not so much comparing what Al brings to the table versus what Kitna brought to the table, but more of how ready Marvin and Smoove are to produce Palmer-like results.

I don't think either of them are ready at this point, with less than 2 years experience between them, to step in right now and make us forget about Al.

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AHF Grand Master

AHF

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Quote:

- Rudi Johnson, who took over for Dillon, breaks the team single-season rushing mark held by Dillon.

On a side note, what do you think are the odds that Chris Perry takes over for Rudi in the next 2-3 years. He looked very good this year when he played.

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Diesel Grand Master

Diesel

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People on welfare get into that situation in the first place for a variety of circumstances. Nobody likes to be on welfare, but some don't see any other way to get out of the system.

It's sad to be in this situation. Welfare that is...

But let's look at the Hawks franchise. We traded Away all of star level players so that we can have capspace and make a bigger impact in the draft lottery. Realistically, you can't say that because the league doesn't like it's teams giving up.

Then we drafted Chillz/Smoove.

We traded JT for ending contracts.

Then we drafted Marvin.

The Belkin mess tells us exactly what Gameplan we were running. I don't know if you closed your eyes and put your hand over your face or what... but here is the aligation from the "good Owners".

Quote:

"The bitter battle within the Hawks' ownership group continued Saturday, with one owner suggesting that Steve Belkin's opposition to the pending Joe Johnson trade reflects
Belkin's desire to operate the franchise "on the cheap."

Michael Gearon Sr., a member of the nine-man ownership group and a former Hawks president and general manager, said Belkin has clashed with his partners over how much to spend on the player payroll."

Now.

We spent the money to get JJ. We have finished the demolition. Now it's time for building.

However, what I consider the Welfare mentality of Hawksquawk is those who suggest us going back to the cheap Hawks of trading away Talent for Picks or talent for nothing.. IN the process making us Lowly and uncompetitive again... It doesn't make sense to do that when you don't have to.

We have the money to re-sign Al. We have the money and the time to find a GOOD trade for Al. What we don't have is a team that can match JJ's efforts without a second scorer.

The trades that have been discussed for the last 2 months here have been the equivalent of a welfare mother going back to have another baby so that she can get more money...

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Nicholasp27 Newbie

Nicholasp27

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again, you aren't listening to us

we don't wanna trade al to save money

we wanna trade al because we don't believe in spending 9+mil/year on a piece that doesn't fit and we don't believe we can contend with

we don't think al is part of the solution

you do

that is where the difference in opinion lies...not with some fabricated 'welfare mentality'

you wanna keep the status quo and hope that the players evolve and start winning...that's more welfare mentality...hope things get better without working to fix the fundamental problems

we want to trade al and keep working on building a contender

you can disagree on keeping al or not, but there is no 'welfare mentality' on our end

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