Players Wingspan are in

[Guest Walter]

[Guest Walter]

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No I am not. I think both Marvin and JS look like SF/PF's at this point and that their position hasn't been determined yet. It's hard for me to play a guy out of position when I don't know what his position is. It is very possible that either or both of these players will turn out to be a great PF no matter how often you want to ignore the fact that teir games are not developed enough to assign definitive position yet.

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Only 1 Pf produced in the top ten that was listed at 6'9" or shorter AND 240 or less. That was Antwan Jamison at #9. In short, to be a "great Pf" in this league height and/or size does matter. Regardless, neither of them have ever GD shown a desire to play Pf! By now potential "great Pfs" have at least shown they WANT to play Pf. What a f-ing crock. It's one thing to think it possible. Hell, everything is possible. It's another to bank your team's rebuilding future on it, forcing players out of position to accomodate one player's possibility and to date not demonstrated "greatness" anywhere much less Pf.

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Even you list Shelden as a PF when he is lighter, smaller, and has a smaller reach than Smoove, yet you can't possibly imagine smoove at the PF.

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Shelden's played the post his whole life, has (robotic) post skills but post skills none-the-less, is bigger and a hell of alot stronger than Smoove (see bench) and he WANTS TO PLAY THE POST.

Smoove doesn't even imagine his self as a Pf, how on earth can you?

Also, I don't think Shelden can play the C even part time which is why I don't really want to draft him. I think our top players' natural positions are:

Lue:PG

JJ:SG

Salim:SG

Chill: SF

Smoove:SF/PF

Marvin:SF/PF

Zaza:PF/C

and I think all these guys will be playing at their natural positions except for Salim who will have to play at the point.

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I fail to see how you don't think he's sorry when you want to "accomodate his sorry ass". Sounds like some PR backtracking to go back to your previous stance that you love Marvin but he has to go ASAP.

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I'm pissed about our team situation. We have people forcing everybody out of position to accomodate MW. Had we drafted a franchise Pg in last year's draft we could draft ANY OF THE TOP 8 players (save maybe Foye) in this draft and filled a need. As it stands we are reaching and begging that we get a lesser player because of our forward glut. I explained why I'm pissed and phrased it the way I did but you CHOOSE not to hear it. That's YOUR problem.

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yes he (MW) does (have superstar potential.[/yes]

name the superstars drafted similar that did worse yet who still became superstars, preferably at similar position.

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Of course he wasn't (better than JS).

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[/indent]

Where is your brain? He's NEVER EVER IN ALL HIS LIFE BEEN AS GOOD AS JS. NEVER. Wasn't even in the same conversation as JS coming out of HS. He backed out because he wasn't a lock 1st rder. Not in HS, not comparing relative rookie NBA seasons (he was 25% less productive), not comparing last season at the same age (25% less productive) was he as good as JS.

"Of course" you have to play that down, but if MW has superstar potential (in any real sense), JS has mega-superstar potential.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Great summary Lascar. Save that one and repost it everytime this argument comes up.

And I can agree that it would be hard to bypass drafting the another SF's such as Bargnani.

And actually that is where drafting Marvin will kill us.

Hopefully Aldridge will fall to us.

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Now that was funny as sh!t.

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Great post Lascar...drafting MW is killing us this draft.

W

[AHF]

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I'm pissed about the notion that one future average starting player (and that's what he will be)

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Can you give 2-3 examples of "average" small forwards in the league so I can better understand what you mean by this projection?

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[Guest Walter]

starting Pf.

W

[AHF]

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starting Pf.

W

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I would like to see 2-3 examples of average SFs if you would be gracious enough to come up with them. As you have pointed out many times, Marvin Williams isn't a PF.

[DJlaysitup]

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...As you have pointed out many times, Marvin Williams isn't a PF.

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Marvin Williams isn't a PF and JS doesn't want to be a PF and there's the rub.

[Guest Walter]

I mean come on people. Yes, more experienced but if before the draft you knew Ryan Gomes was going to have a more productive season than MW would any of you still insist upon MW's so called "up-side". Per 48 19.92 TENDEX in 22.6 MPG to MW per 48 16.66 TENDEX in 24.7 MPG (MPG only shown to reflect their equal opportunities). That's what? Around 20% more productive than MW?!? Come on people. That's a marginal 2nd rd pick, good college player, marginal pro prospect.

The 2-3 average starting Sfs that I suspect MW will resemble (not in style but production); Luol Deng, Al Harrington, Matt Harpring area of production.

W

[Guest Walter]

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...As you have pointed out many times, Marvin Williams isn't a PF.

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Marvin Williams isn't a PF and JS doesn't want to be a PF and there's the rub.

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Nobody would believe JS was (more) a Pf were it not for the presence of MW. KB called JS a SHOOTING GUARD until MW was drafted and JJ was signed.

Hell, if all you have to do to jump two positions is get other (even lesser) players that play your position can we not get another Sf and play MW at center?

W

[DJlaysitup]

The misses on Gomes were amazing. He's a 6'7" PF so everybody said "Oh My!"...didn't matter that he played very well in the paint in the Big East and had real low post skills and strength.

Now I'm not saying we should have taken Gomes at the 2 spot - but he would have helped us alot more than the "steal of the draft" - Salim.

[AHF]

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I mean come on people. Yes, more experienced but if before the draft you knew Ryan Gomes was going to have a more productive season than MW would any of you still insist upon MW's so called "up-side". Per 48 19.92 TENDEX in 22.6 MPG to MW per 48 16.66 TENDEX in 24.7 MPG (MPG only shown to reflect their equal opportunities). That's what? Around 20% more productive than MW?!? Come on people. That's a marginal 2nd rd pick, good college player, marginal pro prospect.

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Travis Knight had better numbers by most measures than Kobe Bryant their rookie year, so I don't think that is a real definitive way to measure upside.

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The 2-3 average starting Sfs that I suspect MW will resemble (not in style but production); Luol Deng, Al Harrington, Matt Harpring area of production.

W

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Thanks.

[KB21]

Shelden isn't a center prospect only in Walter's stupid, short sighted, small minded, antiquated thought process when it comes to basketball.

[AHF]

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Shelden isn't a center prospect only in Walter's stupid, short sighted, small minded, antiquated thought process when it comes to basketball.

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I am not convinced he can be a starting center in the NBA. I suspect he is a pure PF who is strong enough to play some minutes at center each game.

[troubleman]

I have never thought of Shelden as a center. I feel that he can come in and play next to Zaza and give the Hawks the interior defensive presence they lack. I wouldn't take him over Aldridge, but I will take him over guys like O'Bryant and Simmons.

[Final_quest]

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Travis Knight had better numbers by most measures than Kobe Bryant their rookie year, so I don't think that is a real definitive way to measure upside.

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I don't often weigh in on the Marvin debate because it's been done enough, but at this point, I'm not expecting him to turn into anything more than a Matt Harpring. The difference is I have a fan's hope that he will become something more. The fact that we have a couple superstars that had marginal rookie years, doesn't impress me.

You can find a Kobe, Tmac, and Garnett to give hope, but let's face it, most players who don't produce in their first year usually don't become all-stars.

[codyatl]

I wonder if people said the same thing about Sir Charles when he came out? I have made this point before. Lets not bet against Williams just because of his height. He was a stud at Duke, period. He is big and strong and isn't rebounding more about strenght and positioning than height? Also, think about how many times we saw players post up al and score at will because they already had 1 foot in the paint. That will not happen with williams becasue of his strength. I would love to have access to their bench and squat numbers. I think he will be a great fit for the hawks. I would worry a bit about obryant. i mena he didn't dominate in college like williams even against lesser talent. so much for height alone huh.

[Lascar78]

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Great summary Lascar. Save that one and repost it everytime this argument comes up.

And I can agree that it would be hard to bypass drafting the another SF's such as Bargnani.

And actually that is where drafting Marvin will kill us.

Hopefully Aldridge will fall to us.

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Now that was funny as sh!t.

Summary

Great post Lascar...drafting MW is killing us this draft.

W

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Just because your head is miles up your own ass doesn't mean we all have to do the same. Perhaps I can simplify for you like I do for Diesel sometimes. Here are three entirely separate statements that you for some reason seem to think are one and the same:

STATEMENT A (THE PAST), which most of us here agree with: if we could do it again today, knowing what we know, we would take Paul, and we are aware that the decision to draft Marvin MIGHT hurt us in the long run.

STATEMENT B (THE PRESENT), which most of us here don't agree with at all: Marvin and Smith's positions are already determined, and they will both be small forwards. Because I somehow know that they will both be pure SF's, they can not start together, and we MUST trade one NOW while the trade value is high.

STATEMENT C (THE FUTURE), which most of us don't agree with: I think Smith was better as a highschooler, and at the same age, Smith was better as a 2nd year player than Marvin as a rookie. Therefore, Smith will always be better. So if we trade someone, trade Marvin.

What you will find is that many rational people like myself believe that:

A) We didn't know how good Paul would be. Knowing that now, we would draft Paul

B) Smith and Marvin both appear to be SF/PF's. With Al in the post, they were both relegated to the perimeter, but they are too young and too raw to determine their position. Neither has the full game of either position, and both have some tools and the body for both positions. Smith-Marvin in either order could become a devastating tandem in the NBA, so there is no reason to trade them now because one possibility is that they'll both be SF's.

C) Josh came in raw, looked bad in the first half season, but after the trades he and Chill were given a green light and plenty of opportunity and they played well. Marvin has been brought along slowly, and was not as good as Smith in year 1, as expected. However he is already more skilled than Smith and easily has the potential to be better. Only time will tell who will in fact be better

There is no contradiction here

[AHF]

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You can find a Kobe, Tmac, and Garnett to give hope, but let's face it, most players who don't produce in their first year usually don't become all-stars.

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The list goes on with guys like Jermaine ONeal and Dirk Nowtizki and extends to even less explosive guys like Rashard Lewis and Al Harrington.

My point is that with people who are that young coming into the NBA is that you need to give them several years before you can really assess their ceiling.

[Lascar78]

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Shelden isn't a center prospect only in Walter's stupid, short sighted, small minded, antiquated thought process when it comes to basketball.

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I personally don't think Shelden can really be a center in the NBA, except in the sense that Boris is.

I think if we draft him he will play the vast majority of his minutes at the PF. He will probably get some centers to give Zaza breathers, but I don't know how much I'm liking our odds during those spells. I mean I actually saw Al or Smith play some center last year and they did ok, but I still don't like the idea of them getting many minutes there...

[Lascar78]

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You can find a Kobe, Tmac, and Garnett to give hope, but let's face it, most players who don't produce in their first year usually don't become all-stars.

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I don't think that's a fair statement at all. I think that there are two kind of players coming in: players expected to be ready right away (relatively speaking), and known projects. Kobe, Tmac, Dirk ... were all known projects, and so was Marvin. When a known project doesn't do too much, it doesn't really tell you too much either way, it's just what was expected because going in you knew that he was too young, didn't have enough NBA ready skills, his body wasn't ready, had to get used to a new kind of game ... or all of the above.

I was disappointed by Marvin's start, very encouraged by his progression, and especially the fire he started to show. Overall, I got what I expected in year 1.

I really don't see how you could look at it and think that he won't be that good.