Things I'm looking for in Summer League play.

[Diesel]

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Shelden, on the other hand, came in with 4 years of college under his belt, and has matured his game respectively. Is he a complete player already? No, of course not. But his game is far more complete than Marvin's would have been (seeing as Marvin never even started in college ball). As such, I expect Shelden to put up numbers similar to what Bogut put up this year (12/8). Am I expecting more from Shelden? Yes.

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Shelden has played 4 years at Duke. IN the same system, seeing basically the same opponents year by year.

Marvin played 1 year at UNC. Marvin played 1 year (26 mpg over 80 games) in the NBA.

I won't immediately talk about how many games Marvin played against Pro competition vs. what he would have faced in 3 years of college. Because that's a point that should be easy to understand... i.e. THE NBA plays more games per season than College.

However, what astounds me is that you forsake Marvin's UNC career... and basically his first year as a pro... but EXPECT greater things from a guy who's never played pro ball?

We should have just placed Marvin in the NBADL if there was no benefit to playing him 26 mpg against Pros!!!

[TexasPete]

Marvin was a very young HS senior...he turned 18 a month after he graduated from HS. Many good HS players in all sports get left back at some point so they are an older senior. Marvin went to college even though he was a top 10 pick because he was a YOUNG senior.

The way I see it he could have been in HS the year he was at UNC...that is typical. Marvin just turned 20.

He is going to be unbelievable within a couple of years as he gets some experience and physically matures. I would be very careful to avoid criticizing MW at this point because it will look very foolish later. Picking a different player to rag would be a good idea if one is concerned with personal credibility. Marvin will show enough this year that ignorant fans will jump off his back in a hurry.

I find it highly humorous that some people want Adonal Foyle and think poorly of Marvin Williams. Makes sense to me.

[VarsitySlacker]

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Shelden, on the other hand, came in with 4 years of college under his belt, and has matured his game respectively. Is he a complete player already? No, of course not. But his game is far more complete than Marvin's would have been (seeing as Marvin never even started in college ball). As such, I expect Shelden to put up numbers similar to what Bogut put up this year (12/8). Am I expecting more from Shelden? Yes.

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Shelden has played 4 years at Duke. IN the same system, seeing basically the same opponents year by year.

Marvin played 1 year at UNC. Marvin played 1 year (26 mpg over 80 games) in the NBA.

I won't immediately talk about how many games Marvin played against Pro competition vs. what he would have faced in 3 years of college. Because that's a point that should be easy to understand... i.e. THE NBA plays more games per season than College.

However, what astounds me is that you forsake Marvin's UNC career... and basically his first year as a pro... but EXPECT greater things from a guy who's never played pro ball?

We should have just placed Marvin in the NBADL if there was no benefit to playing him 26 mpg against Pros!!!

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It's really not that hard to understand. For the sake of example: You have the option of drafting one of two players: Shane Battier or Tracy McGrady (at the age that they were drafted), because they're the ones that I've been using to make my point the whole time.

Who performs better in the first year? Battier

Who performs better in the second year? Likely Battier, but it's growing closer to a push

Who performs better in the third year? Probably McGrady, because he's matured physically and mentally to the point that Battier was at initially, with superior talent to allow better performance.

So, following my analogy, we have Marvin in his second year and Shelden in his first. Shelden off the bat has more experience for him. Not necessarily NBA experience, but I think the differential in the 3 years of college ball probably makes up for the number of minutes that Marvin played this past year (yes, I know, NBA competition...Shut up) Therefore, you can expect Shelden to be more matured as a player and not be overmatched as much, because he's been playing against at least high quality teams in the ACC for four years, whereas Marvin played high school ball two years ago and then played against the same ACC teams for one year, and then worked his way into the rotation in the NBA for one year. Shelden has consistently faced a slightly lower bracket of players and dominated, and will be ready for the next level. If you'd prefer I use a baseball analogy, a AAA superstar is going to most likely be more prepared initially for pro ball than someone who makes the jump from class A. Not to say that the class A player is a bust when he doesn't take off running, but he'll take more time to find his comfort zone.

Edit: And enough on jumping on Diesel for the Foyle comment. He didn't say "Hey, let's go out and get Foyle for our team!!!" He said, "It would be worth taking on Foyle's albatross contract and him as a servicable player if we were able to gather a collection of players that would be contibutional to our team. I believe Ellis and a 1st is what he asked? I wouldn't do it, but it makes a lot more sense than what a lot of people are asking. Ellis and a 1st is not going to be a net package for Al. Not when the Golden State fans are convinced that Al and Smoove will be the asking price for just Ellis.

[Diesel]

That's a fools analogy.

Let's pick a closer one to our situation.

Battier and Melo after his first year in the NBA.

Like Marvin, Melo played one year of college ball and came out (after winning the NCAA championship).

Like Marvin, Melo was not a first pick overall.

Like Marvin, Melo is a Sf.

Why not use Mello!!

Apply your same questions now?

Back to the point.

1 year of college ball in a good program and one year of NBA play (consistent) means something.

Furthermore destruction of your weak analogy, Tmac didn't play much his rookie year?

Marvin averaged about 26 mpg.

Who do you wanna use next? Juanny? Diop?

[VarsitySlacker]

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That's a fools analogy.

Let's pick a closer one to our situation.

Battier and Melo after his first year in the NBA.

Like Marvin, Melo played one year of college ball and came out (after winning the NCAA championship).

Like Marvin, Melo was not a first pick overall.

Like Marvin, Melo is a Sf.

Why not use Mello!!

Apply your same questions now?

Back to the point.

1 year of college ball in a good program and one year of NBA play (consistent) means something.

Furthermore destruction of your weak analogy, Tmac didn't play much his rookie year?

Marvin averaged about 26 mpg.

Who do you wanna use next? Juanny? Diop?

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We used the players that I chose for my "weak analogy" because they are of comparable skill levels.

Marvin - Was a solid player in college in his limited experience in college, and projects (supposedly) to being a superstar in the NBA. He came in as a project. Nobody expected him to be a savior to the team this year. At least, nobody with realistic expectations. The reason I didn't use Anthony is because he was a superstar in college, and came in directly ready to be a superstar in the NBA. This was expected of him.

Shelden - Was a solid player throughout college, and projects to IMMEDIATELY being a solid player in the NBA, and being a constant solid player throughout his career, much like Battier. Nobody (with realistic expectations) expects Shelden to be the next coming of Shaq. Rather, he is expected to continue his college numbers at a slightly lower pace - 15-8 would be a good projection

You seem to have the tendency, I've noticed, to turn every argument you make into an anti-Marvin argument. This was originally why people expect more from Shelden than they do from Marvin, which I feel I explained rather well. You then took my explanation and construed it into a way you could compare Marvin to Anthony, something in which I had no intention of doing.

If Marvin and Anthony were in the same draft, would I take Anthony? From a talent standpoint, yes. From a coaching standpoint, not at all. Melo is a headcase, and I want no more part of him than I do of Rider again. But that's beside the point.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Actually from a talent standpoint Marvin is more talented than Anthony. From an experience stadpoint, Marvin Williams didn't get nearly the amount of playing time that Melo got his first year. But in the time he got, he improved his production in just about all categories every month.

Why can we be patient for Marvin you ask Diesel? Because the man isn't even old enough to buy a beer! Sure we don't want it to take as long as it took Jermaine O'neal to develop but you at least have to give him 2-3 years.

[AHF]

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Furthermore destruction of your weak analogy, Tmac didn't play much his rookie year?

Marvin averaged about 26 mpg.

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T-Mac averaged a little over 18 mpg. How big a difference is that for purposes of your argument.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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T-Mac averaged a little over 18 mpg. How big a difference is that for purposes of your argument.

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Bottomline is that he just can't stand Marvin Williams. He's willing to give anyone else on this team a chance except Marvin. Nevermind the fact that the kid can't even buy a drink, in Diesel's eyes he's a wasted pick because he didn't put up Carmelo Anthony numbers his rookie year.

No need pointing out the fact that players like Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant didn't even put up big numbers until their 3rd to 4th year in the league. Nevermind pointing out the fact that players like Lebron and Carmelo are an exception to the rule and pointing out how many minutes per game they were given and were the centerpiece of their respective teams. Marvin is still a failure.

[gsuteke]

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T-Mac averaged a little over 18 mpg. How big a difference is that for purposes of your argument.

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Bottomline is that he just can't stand Marvin Williams. He's willing to give anyone else on this team a chance except Marvin. Nevermind the fact that the kid can't even buy a drink, in Diesel's eyes he's a wasted pick because he didn't put up Carmelo Anthony numbers his rookie year.

No need pointing out the fact that players like Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant didn't even put up big numbers until their 3rd to 4th year in the league. Nevermind pointing out the fact that players like Lebron and Carmelo are an exception to the rule and pointing out how many minutes per game they were given and were the centerpiece of their respective teams. Marvin is still a failure.

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start a poll.

[Diesel]

No, I don't care weather or not he can buy a beer??

Lebron James was getting triple doubles before he could buy a beer.

Age means nothing in basketball is the point... NOT that Marvin is not Lebron. (I'd be happy to point out others even Smoove if you'd like).

Also, nor was my not wanting Marvin having anything to do with his first year.

I thought and think that Marvin was a waste on Draft night when we looked at very good PGs then duplicated our Sf position.

Busboy, I'm not asking you to believe anything, just wait. There will come a reckoning when either Smoove or Marvin will have to go. At that time, I want to see if what we have recouped (total) is better than if we had Deron or Chris Paul as our PG all this time.

My feelings about Marvin as a player has been highly misunderstood. I think Marvin is good. I just don't think he will ever be better than the two PGs that we turned down to get him. Nor do I think he will ever be better than Smoove.

[Diesel]

First off.

My statement was very simple.

The only construing done in this whole thread was you making believe that somehow Marvin is on the same level with Tmac.

Come back into reality.

All I said is that if you truly believe that Marvin is or "projects" into "Superstar" basketball player, then why are you comparing oranges to apples by comparing him to a player who:

1. Played No college ball.

2. IS a SG and not a Sf.

3. Had very little playing time his first year out.

My using Melo was simply to use somebody who was supposedly on the same level and get away from your "fool's analogy". I took your analogy as you weakly trying to find a case that would fit your argument. If you truly believed in Marvin's superstardom, then you wouldn't have had so much trouble with me using Melo. However, Melo is not the point.

THE POINT STILL IS

It makes no sense to have expectations of Shelden who has never played a pro game and have no expectations of Marvin who has played one season as a pro.

The fact that you try to justify having expectations of Shelden with lower expectations of Marvin is funny to me.

Like I said before.. if being on the court in the NBA playing against the best everynight had no benefit to Marvin, then maybe we should have put him in the NBADL for the next 3 years so that he can catch up with Shelden and other 4 year seniors coming into the game.

You say that I'm bashing Marvin. How am I bashing Marvin when all I want is for him to have the same expectation placed on him as is placed on an INCOMING ROOKIE?

Varsity, I think you need to look at the situation harder, Consider my last statement, and reconsider exactly WHO is bashing Marvin.

[VarsitySlacker]

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First off.

My statement was very simple.

The only construing done in this whole thread was you making believe that somehow Marvin is on the same level with Tmac.

Come back into reality.

All I said is that if you truly believe that Marvin is or "projects" into "Superstar" basketball player, then why are you comparing oranges to apples by comparing him to a player who:

1. Played No college ball.

2. IS a SG and not a Sf.

3. Had very little playing time his first year out.

My using Melo was simply to use somebody who was supposedly on the same level and get away from your "fool's analogy". I took your analogy as you weakly trying to find a case that would fit your argument. If you truly believed in Marvin's superstardom, then you wouldn't have had so much trouble with me using Melo. However, Melo is not the point.

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I am not try to compare two clones of a player. I said that in the first post. I'm trying to compare vaguely similar situations: A player who is IMMEDIATELY ready to contribute in Battier/Shelden, and one who is NOT immediately to contribute in McGrady/Marvin. Where he got his experience and how much he got of it is irrelevant, only that neither one had the quantity of experience that would make them immediate stars

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THE POINT STILL IS

It makes no sense to have expectations of Shelden who has never played a pro game and have no expectations of Marvin who has played one season as a pro.

The fact that you try to justify having expectations of Shelden with lower expectations of Marvin is funny to me.

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Well, which part makes no sense? The "Marvin is a project who was not supposed to be a star immediately" part, or the "Shelden is a solid role player who is ready to step in and contribute immediately?"

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Like I said before.. if being on the court in the NBA playing against the best everynight had no benefit to Marvin, then maybe we should have put him in the NBADL for the next 3 years so that he can catch up with Shelden and other 4 year seniors coming into the game.

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Where did I say that it did not benefit him? You could certainly see Marvin' improvement from the beginning of the year to the end. However, the greatest leap in his ability isn't going to happen in his first year. It's going to happen in his second or third, where he gets consistent, meaningful playing time. 26 MPG isn't exactly a lot of playing time in itself. It's barely half the game for a team that is not good

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You say that I'm bashing Marvin. How am I bashing Marvin when all I want is for him to have the same expectation placed on him as is placed on an INCOMING ROOKIE?

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That part is not the "bash Marvin" part. The "bash Marvin" part is where you took Carmelo Anthony out of nowhere to illustrate how Marvin failed as a rookie.

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Varsity, I think you need to look at the situation harder, Consider my last statement, and reconsider exactly WHO is bashing Marvin.

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Wait, what? I'm bashing Marvin? Oh, okay, my point is null and void. You win, Diesel.

Oh, wait. That was pure bullshit. If by "bash" you mean "expecting him to start slow and then pick up his game exponentially," then yeah, I'm bashing Marvin. But you might want to check Webster's on your idea of what the word means.

Also, for the record, I didn't want to draft Marvin. I wanted Paul the same as you, and I wanted to trade the 2 pick for 5 and 12 as was supposedly on the table. However, I also understand that, while passing on Paul was not a good move for the franchise, if Marvin develops as he is expected too, then hope is not lost. (Though, really, how many pure SFs become true stars? Marion and Grant Hill are the only two I can think of off the top of my head)

On that note, I didn't want Shelden. I wanted Foye. However, BK's logic in picking Shelden is that he was ready to step up and contribute immediately. I remember hearing quotes about him being a "role player from the start." Which is to say, if he is unable to do this, it was a poor move by BK. I'm not asking to be at his full potential at the beginning of his career, that would be asinine. However, I am expecting strong numbers along the lines of Bogut's from last year, because that's at the stage of development that he is at.

And yes, Diesel, I am every bit as stubborn as you.

[Traceman]

Marvin is my favorite Haek but that is crazy. Melo should have been an All Star as a 3rd year player and he averaged over 20 ppg in his rookie year after only one year of college. Melo would EASILY have been the #1 overall pick in last year's draft.

[Diesel]

Starting from the bottom

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On that note, I didn't want Shelden. I wanted Foye. However, BK's logic in picking Shelden is that he was ready to step up and contribute immediately. I remember hearing quotes about him being a "role player from the start." Which is to say, if he is unable to do this, it was a poor move by BK. I'm not asking to be at his full potential at the beginning of his career, that would be asinine. However, I am expecting strong numbers along the lines of Bogut's from last year, because that's at the stage of development that he is at.

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BK specifically said about Foyle and Rondo and Williams that we brought them in and took a look at them and just didn't want them as much as we wanted a big. Period.

I don't think he made his pick based on Shelden being more ready to play OVER Shelden being the right position. Roy was just as ready to contribute as Shelden.. He didn't even get a look. BK made it clear that:

1. He liked Shelden.

2. He felt that Shelden would address our need for a defensive big.

Anything after those two points is somewhat moot.

2nd,

I do feel that you are "bashing" or better yet babying Marvin along if you believe that Marvin's 2 years of experience 1 in NCAA and the other in the Pros playing consistent minutes doesn't prepare him better than an incoming rookie. To sit there and say that you expect and incoming rookie to perform better than Marvin tells me that you don't think much of Marvin.

3rd

When did 25 mpg stop being good minutes for a rookie?? All these guys who you guys like to pull out of your --- got 1/2 of that when they were rookies. Now all the sudden Varsity proclaims 25 mpg to not be enough???

Really? That's more than half the game you know?

[VarsitySlacker]

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BK specifically said about Foyle and Rondo and Williams that we brought them in and took a look at them and just didn't want them as much as we wanted a big. Period.

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Okay. This is really irrelevant to what I was saying (though I understood why you put it in), I was just making it clear where I stood on the current state of affairs. I understand exactly why BK chose Shelden, and I understand his thought process. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I think signing Speedy offset my disagreement.

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I don't think he made his pick based on Shelden being more ready to play OVER Shelden being the right position. Roy was just as ready to contribute as Shelden.. He didn't even get a look. BK made it clear that:

1. He liked Shelden.

2. He felt that Shelden would address our need for a defensive big.

Anything after those two points is somewhat moot.

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I think most people (Not necessarily Squawkers and Hawks fans, but most people) would have crucified BK for picking Roy while we have JJ. Foye being a combo guard is one thing, but Roy (while he has some PG skills) is no more of a PG that Salim is IMO, and we know how that disaster.

As for your 1-2 punch, I think you need to amend it to say would "immediately" address our need for a defensive big. Because he's drafted enough projects (Marvin) to have to add another (Take Saer Sene, for example), and would rather have someone that could come in and take the pressure off Zaza in the post.

Also, because it just came to mind...Whatever happened to the #5 for #8 and Luther Head trade? Because I would have had no qualms at all with taking Shelden at 8, especially after adding Head to the team.

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2nd,

I do feel that you are "bashing" or better yet babying Marvin along if you believe that Marvin's 2 years of experience 1 in NCAA and the other in the Pros playing consistent minutes doesn't prepare him better than an incoming rookie. To sit there and say that you expect and incoming rookie to perform better than Marvin tells me that you don't think much of Marvin.

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Ask Marvin if he's better than the player he was last year. Ask Marvin if he thinks that he's capped out his potential.

For that matter, ask anyone on the Hawks if he's even starting to plateau.

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3rd

When did 25 mpg stop being good minutes for a rookie?? All these guys who you guys like to pull out of your --- got 1/2 of that when they were rookies. Now all the sudden Varsity proclaims 25 mpg to not be enough???

Really? That's more than half the game you know?

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1) 25 minutes is BARELY half the game. Just for the record.

2) Tracy McGrady, the ONLY guy who I "pulled out of my ass," got 18 mpg his rookie year. That's well over half of what Marvin got. And as accordingly (also accounting for his year of college ball), Marvin had better numbers his rookie year. In contrast, Carmelo Anthony, who you "pulled out of your ass" pulled around 40 mpg if I'm not mistaken. I'd say my comparison was closer in regards to rookie year.

3) My point, which you apparantly missed because you focused on me saying that 26 mpg is not a lot of minutes in itself, is that you are saying that Marvin playing in half of every game in the NBA for one season is the equivalent of Shelden playing (I don't know this for a fact, but am assuming) most of every game for three seasons at Duke. While I don't know the numbers exactly, I'm sure they don't add up.

[Diesel]

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Also, because it just came to mind...Whatever happened to the #5 for #8 and Luther Head trade? Because I would have had no qualms at all with taking Shelden at 8, especially after adding Head to the team.

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It was doubtful that Shelden would have made it to #8. I think BK believed that Boston would have taken Shelden and to be honest about the matter, why not. Especially if Jefferson or Shelden could have been used to get AI? I think you have to go with what BK says about his knowledge of what the other teams would have done.

Let's say we would have followed that lead. That meant that we would have picked Roy #5... What happens when Shelden goes to Boston? Would we have been taking Swift? That would have sucked to come away from the draft with Swift and whoever else Houston could have dug up out of the draft... Probably Simmons.