Things I'm looking for in Summer League play.

[Diesel]

Age vs. NBA experience .... What's more important??

GSUTEKE You get the big

I mean, what's there to defend here? You should have expectations of Marvin dominating summer league. He's probably our most experienced player. However, what do we here??

Marvin's so young?

That's BS...

That's BS...

He's the most experienced player on our summer league team.

MY point is if you want to place expectations on anybody on our SL team, then Marvin should be in the middle of that list.

F---ing Hypocrite!

[Diesel]

Thank you EDS...

This is exactly what i'm saying.

Marvin doesn't get another year of free passes does he?

I understand that we should have some expectations of Shelden... However, Shelden hasn't spent the last year playing pros. Marvin has. While Shelden may be older, Marvin has more experience. Marvin knows the system better. There are too many guys here at HS who are willing to give MW a pass for the next 4 years. reminds me of Chicago fans with Chandler.

I don't put much value in SL play, however, if you're going to expect something from any of our players... HELL, it must be Marvin. He's the only guy going to SL that has been a starter.

[gsuteke]

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Why is it that Sheldon has to prove himself from day 1...

and Marvin has been in the league for a whole year and still has nothing to prove?

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I'll try one time and one time only to explain to you how many of the rest of us view you.

Diesel you are if not the most, one of the most shrewd individuals on this board. I have only been here for a year so I can only speak for the last 12 or so months.

Diesel it's not that you can't see the position other people are coming from on certain subjects, you simply refuse to consider them. Marvin Williams is the perfect example.

Diesel if for just a minute you take off your "Marvin pooped in my cornflakes" colored glasses you will see exactly what happened in this thread.

KayBee posts the things he wants to see on the SL squad. one of the five points was about how Sheldon would be used offensively. another directly addressed Marvin Willaims asking to see him come out aggressive. The theme of Marvin and his aggressiveness was followed up on. The conversation while critical of Marvin was also constructive. there were a total of 13 posts and then along comes someone with an agenda.

reference the above post. where the hell did that come from?

Congratulations. you just hijacked another good thread with your Anti-Marvin propoganda.

Diesel lately you have become viewed less for your contributions to the site. you simply have become an antagonist. if you are OK with that then good for you.

take the information and put it in your back pocket if you'd like. or then again you can continue the same behavior by mocking me and any of us on here that have something positive to say about Marvin Williams or anything Hawks for that matter.

if you don't believe me start a poll. you'll be shocked.

[Diesel]

Rationalize about what? My perceived feelings about Marvin?

Certainly not about what I have talked about.

I only asked why is it that Marvin is being held to one set of expectations (which is basically none) and Our first year Shelden is being held to a different set of expectations.

It didn't really arise from what KB may have said or not said but from statements like this:

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if Shelden doesn't dominate like a man playing against boys in the summer league then i will be very dissapointed.

he should push everyone around, even those taller than him. his basketball IQ should allow him to play even against players 4 inches taller than him.

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I wouldn't have a problem with this statement if there was also an attached statement about an expectation or two for Marvin!

Moreover, when I ask about Marvin why Marvin hasn't recieved any expectations, this is what I get...

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becaue he's 3 years older than Marvin. Diesel I think i speak on behalf of the majority of us when i say

Just Shaaaaduuup!

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Notice... This is not an expectation for a player you expect to be a star. This is more or less ANOTHER EXCUSE.

Let me tell you something. Next year, Shelden will still be 3 years older than Marvin. Will you still be making the same old lame excuse for Marvin then??

If you are truly a fan of Marvin, you should expect that he (being our most experienced player in SL) should come in and dominate that level of competition.

But that's not what you're saying TEKE. You're saying that Marvin has every right to be just as bad as he was last year because "He's still so young.."..

Give me a break.

Marvin has 1 year of NBA experience in his pocket. That accounts for more than 3 years of college experience. Marvin didn't spend his time in the DL. He played.

OK...

Let me rationalize with you now.

Since you keep up your Marvin is so young excuse.. how about this:

Martell Webster is younger than Marvin. Martell Webster was drafted AFTER Marvin. He didn't play in College like Marvin did. He didn't get much run in the NBA last year Like Marvin Did.

Can you GSUTEKE expect that Marvin will play better than Martell Webster has in Summer League...

Here's his statline...

Let me know.

I'll be waiting on your excuse!

[TROUBLEMAN69]

Diesel, if Marvin does not play better than Webster I will be disappointed. Like you I have higher expectations for Marvin than Shelden, because I feel it is more difficult for a rookie (regardless of college classification). I also feel that summer league ball is geared towards wing players, because they are the ones with the ball in their hands.

[gsuteke]

Diesel i'll give you the last word. i'm just trying to help out.

i respect your opinion.

[AHF]

I want to see Marvin do well in the summer league but he doesn't have to do better than Webster per se or do better than Skita's numbers, etc. I just want to see him flourish and then carry that over to the regular season. The regular season is what matters which is why if Webster kicks butt in the summer league and then sits on the bench for another year who really cares?

My expectations for Shelden and Marvin in the summer league are to be standouts and to take that into the regular season. I won't be upset if Shelden's numbers aren't better than someone else's heads up.

[Diesel]

I don't like to use SL for the basis of judging anyplayer.

My whole point in the matter is that if you're going to use it as your basis.. then certainly, you should expect more of Marvin and Salim than you do of Shelden and Solom simply because Marvin and Salim have NBA experience.

When I asked why was there no expectations on Marvin Also.. I got a whole lot of excuses about Why no expectations should be put on Marvin.

I rationalized using the excuse makers logic that Marvin should perform better than Martell Webster. The truth is that I don't neccessarily believe that because SL games tend to favor aggressive players. I've never known a non-aggressive player to dominate a SL game because there are too many guys trying to make the team for it to be a good team game.

So my prediction is that Salim will probably be the SL MVP for the Hawks.

However, I hope that Marvin does something.

[VarsitySlacker]

The way I'm viewing this, at least.

We drafted Marvin with the knowledge he was going to be a project. We knew he was going to be good, but we didn't know when he would fully flourish. Take, for example (and I am NOT comparing these guys) Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady. Both came into the league one year younger than Marvin, and both showed flashes of potential in their first few years, but it took them a while to show it. That is why we're hoping for a steady progression from Marvin rather than for him to jump out immediately and be a star. While it does occasionally happen for younger players, it's not the common case.

Shelden, on the other hand, was drafted as "a safe pick." This is what ESPN, rotoworld, nbadraft.net, and every other draft coverage has called it. Shelden is not a project, he's a guy who is supposed to come in and contribute every night IMMEDIATELY. If he can't come in and contribute every night, then all prior assessments of him were flawed.

And one year of pro ball CERTAINLY does not account for three years of college ball. I don't know where you got that opinion. The maturation of a player is yet to come, as is a good portion of their strength.

[Diesel]

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And one year of pro ball CERTAINLY does not account for three years of college ball. I don't know where you got that opinion. The maturation of a player is yet to come, as is a good portion of their strength.

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Seeing that this seems to address me, let me respond.

Do you believe that if we were to take Gerald Green or Martell Webster to anybody's college program and let them play that they would be no better than the average sophomore coming back?

How about Smoove. Coming into last season, do you think Smoove would have progressed equally had he played 1 year at IU as he did 1 year as a Hawk?

If Somebody is consistently playing THE BEST IN THE WORLD, you don't expect them to be 1, 2, or 3 times better than Somebody who plays against other college programs?

If what I am saying is not true.. How do you explain what happened to Andrew Bogut this year?

Bogut was the #1 pick overall. He dominated College ball. He would put up 20/12... I forgot what he averaged but it was good.

He goes pro and is barely putting up 10/8?

What happened?

Moreover, if we stuck him back at Utah right now, do you expect him to be the same player he was before or would he be more dominate?

[AHF]

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And one year of pro ball CERTAINLY does not account for three years of college ball. I don't know where you got that opinion. The maturation of a player is yet to come, as is a good portion of their strength.

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Seeing that this seems to address me, let me respond.

Do you believe that if we were to take Gerald Green or Martell Webster to anybody's college program and let them play that they would be no better than the average sophomore coming back?

How about Smoove. Coming into last season, do you think Smoove would have progressed equally had he played 1 year at IU as he did 1 year as a Hawk?

If Somebody is consistently playing THE BEST IN THE WORLD, you don't expect them to be 1, 2, or 3 times better than Somebody who plays against other college programs?

If what I am saying is not true.. How do you explain what happened to Andrew Bogut this year?

Bogut was the #1 pick overall. He dominated College ball. He would put up 20/12... I forgot what he averaged but it was good.

He goes pro and is barely putting up 10/8?

What happened?

Moreover, if we stuck him back at Utah right now, do you expect him to be the same player he was before or would he be more dominate?

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The question on this is whether Adam Morrison will be better this year than he would have been had he gone pro directly out of HS and then played one year in the league (probably on the bench like Webster). To put it another way, will Webster be better this year or would he be better his first year in the NBA after 3 years in college?

I will take the 3 years of college every time over 1 year in the NBA.

I will take 1 year in the NBA over 1 year in college almost every time because of limits on practices, games, coaches, etc.

[Diesel]

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I will take the 3 years of college every time over 1 year in the NBA.

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This statement is made with the assumption that the player who came straight to the NBA didn't play consistent minutes.

However, that's not the case with Marvin. He averaged 26 minutes per game and he played in just about every game.

Would he have benefited more playing 3 more years at UNC?

I really don't think so.

Back to JSmoove.

JSmoove played 1 year with the hawks coming into last season. I feel that if you compare him to himself after three years at IU, that he was better this year.

In some cases, college does absolutely nothing to prepare you for the pro game.

However, if you take a player, surround him with pros and let him play consistent minutes.. then that player will probably progress more than if he was in college for 3 yrs.

[mrhonline]

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We drafted Marvin with the knowledge he was going to be a project.

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The thing is, Marvin contributed more than what a "project" would have. 11/5 off the bench after the All-Star break are good numbers for any age.

Still, his rookie season numbers are very consistent with other players at his age. They compare favorably with:

Chris Bosh, Trevor Ariza, Josh Smith, Martell Webster, Josh Smith, Loul Deng, Kevin Garnett, Cliff Robinson, Eddie Griffin, and Eddy Curry all took time to adjust to the NBA at age 19.

Why would Marvin be any different?

[AHF]

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I will take the 3 years of college every time over 1 year in the NBA.

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This statement is made with the assumption that the player who came straight to the NBA didn't play consistent minutes.

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No I will take 3 years of minutes in college over 1 year of minutes in the NBA.

I will take Tim Duncan after 4 years of college over Tim Duncan who left after his freshman year at Wake and then played 26 mpg for the Spurs.

I think you and I just differ on the value of 1 year in the NBA against 3 years in college.

[Diesel]

That's a good example.. however, the only thing that really makes it good is that we don't know how Tim Duncan would have turned out if he had left after his freshman year?

Click here.

If you look over his stats, the argument can be made that Duncan peaked in his sophomore year.

So it's very hard to know what he would have done with only one year of college.

Moreover, the ratio of underclassmen to four year players in the nba I would believe is startling.

I just happen to think that if you play with the best, you will get better. Period.

[DJlaysitup]

I think you also have to look at the particular situation a player is thrust into. I think you have to look at it somewhat "case by case".

Nobody can argue that putting in time at WF in a very competitve ACC really hurt Duncan. Then (and maybe most importantly) - he goes to a team with a great mentor in the Admiral and isn't forced to be the only big.

Had he gone to a cr@ppy NBA team with a bunch of selfish 3-jackers after his 1st or 2nd year of college things might not have worked out nearly as well.

[AHF]

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That's a good example.. however, the only thing that really makes it good is that we don't know how Tim Duncan would have turned out if he had left after his freshman year?

Click here.

If you look over his stats, the argument can be made that Duncan peaked in his sophomore year.

So it's very hard to know what he would have done with only one year of college.

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I agree. It is speculation there and on anyone's part whether Smoove was better last year than he would have been his rookie year after 3 seasons at Indiana.

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Moreover, the ratio of underclassmen to four year players in the nba I would believe is startling.

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I don't know how that is relevant. 20 years ago the ratio was startlingly in the other direction. The ratio is a function of economics not whether players are better after a year in the NBA than after an additional 3 years in college.

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I just happen to think that if you play with the best, you will get better. Period.

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I don't disagree with that at all. I think a year in the NBA is better for development than a year in college. However, give someone 3 years in college and I think they will develop more than with 1 year in the NBA.

In other words, if I had to take 5 players straight out of high school and you took 5 clones of those players and we were going to have a game against eachother. The question is do I want:

(1) 19 year old players Lebron James, Tracy McGrady, Marvin Williams, Jermaine ONeal & Shaquile ONeal who have all played 1 year in the NBA and none in college;

or

(2) 21 year old players Lebron James, Tracy McGrady, Marvin Williams, Jermaine ONeal & Shaquile ONeal who have all played 3 years in college and none in the NBA

I am going to go with the 21 year olds who have the college experience.

That is speculative but that is my speculation.

[VarsitySlacker]

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We drafted Marvin with the knowledge he was going to be a project.

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The thing is, Marvin contributed more than what a "project" would have. 11/5 off the bench after the All-Star break are good numbers for any age.

Still, his rookie season numbers are very consistent with other players at his age. They compare favorably with:

Chris Bosh, Trevor Ariza, Josh Smith, Martell Webster, Josh Smith, Loul Deng, Kevin Garnett, Cliff Robinson, Eddie Griffin, and Eddy Curry all took time to adjust to the NBA at age 19.

Why would Marvin be any different?

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I'm not sure if this was intended to rebuke me, but I agree entirely. By drafting Marvin, we (realistically) didn't expect for him to come in and dominate the league. I, for one, was expecting 8 PPG and 4 RPG off the bench. He certainly gave more than I expected, and I was quite pleased with him.

However, under the basis of "he came in as a project," I'm expecting much more than that, obviously. At the end of his contract, if he's not averaging 18 PPG and 6 RPG at the least, then I'm going to be very disappointed.

Shelden, on the other hand, came in with 4 years of college under his belt, and has matured his game respectively. Is he a complete player already? No, of course not. But his game is far more complete than Marvin's would have been (seeing as Marvin never even started in college ball). As such, I expect Shelden to put up numbers similar to what Bogut put up this year (12/8). Am I expecting more from Shelden? Yes. However, I don't expect him career numbers to jump up much higher than 14/10. In that sense, he is comparable to Shane Battier. He came in as a quality player, and continued a quality player. Not a star, but a quality player.

I'd elaborate on the 3 years of college versus 1 year of NBA, but it seems that everyone else has already made my point for me.

[mrhonline]

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I'm not sure if this was intended to rebuke me

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It wasn't. I was mostly talking to myself.

[gsuteke]

some people refuse to be helped.