ESPN Top PGs in Basketball History

[Diesel]

Click here

I don't know how this will work out... so I will copy what's current.

1. Magic

2. Oscar Robertson

3. John Stockton

4. Isiah Thomas

5. Bob Cousy

6. Walt Fraizer

7. Jason Kidd

8. Steve Nash

9. Tiny Archibald

10. Gary Payton

11. Lenny Wilkens

12. Chauncey Billups

How do you rank em!

[Guest]

Chauncey Billups? Please, ESPN should be ashamed of themselves. I have it going:

1. Stock

2. Oscar

3. Magic

Then its just too cloudy, I would have to think about it for a while. I know Billups wouldn't make my top 20 though. Hell, I would easily put Mookie above Billups, Mookie may very well have been in the top 5 of defensive PGs.

[skankin_richard]

I have it as:

Oscar

Magic

Stockton

Cooz

Thomas

Kidd

Payton

and I don't feel like doing anymore...

p.s.

where's the love for pistol pete? he was the man, and he was way better than billups.

[Bulldog]

anyone think Tim Hardaway is always overlooked for these things..? for his career over 13 years (including some lean years to finish he averaged 17.7 ppg, 8.2 apg, 3.3rpg, 1.65 spg and was a great team leader. He had 22 assists in a game once...

[chillzatl]

the only reason stockton isn't and WILL NOT be #1 on the list is because it the masses are allowed to vote and they will vote for what TV has told them to vote for, ie..magic. Not that magic wasn't a great PG. But Stockton was the best ever, period.

[AHF]

I would never pick Stockton over Magic or Oscar if I was starting a team and selecting my PG. In fact, I don't know that I would take Stockton over Isiah Thomas or Bob Cousy either. He is a prototype pass-first point guard and has unlimited basketball IQ (seen best in his steal numbers, IMO) but he was never a dominant player. If this poll is supposed to measure the best players that played PG (which is how I read it) I put Stockton in a toss-up for the 3-5 spots.

[Johnnybravo4]

I am suprised that they didn't put Chris Paul in the list.

[Guest]

Quote:

---

the only reason stockton isn't and WILL NOT be #1 on the list is because it the masses are allowed to vote and they will vote for what TV has told them to vote for, ie..magic. Not that magic wasn't a great PG. But Stockton was the best ever, period.

---

It is sad but true. Stockton is definitely a better point guard than anyone out there. I don't think scoring has to do at all with playing point, it is all about having a high BBall IQ. He always set up his teammates which is what you want. He never scored more than 34 in a game, but that was by design. He was also one of the most efficient shooters ever, I think he has like the 3rd or 4th highest FG% of all PGs (the ones with higher FG% played in a time where teams regularly shot 50%).

Of course the general public is going to go with the flashy Magic which I think is pathetic. Magic only rebounded and blocked shots better than Stock and I think those have no merit in talking about point guards. Better player? Sure. But not a better point guard.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Magic only rebounded and blocked shots better than Stock and I think those have no merit in talking about point guards. Better player? Sure. But not a better point guard.

---

I guess it depends on how you define the question. I read this as being "who are the best players who played the PG position?" If it is about who is the best metaphysical PG you first have to debate what really makes a PG.

Based on your notes in the prior post, I would assume that if a John Stockton clone came out who was 10% less of a passer/playmaker than the original but who was more athletic and averaged 36 PPG (on 60% FG%), 22 RPG and 8 BPG that you would consider the original Stockton to be a better PG than that clone verions since scoring, rebounding and blocking shots doesn't have anything to do with a discussion of who is the better point guard. I would consider the cloned Stockton to be the better PG because I would rather have him playing PG on my team than the original because he would be a better player at the PG position.

[Guest]

Quote:

---

I guess it depends on how you define the question. I read this as being "who are the best players who played the PG position?" If it is about who is the best metaphysical PG you first have to debate what really makes a PG.

---

Well ESPN said, "They came up with a list of the top 10 point guards of all-time, ranked by ESPN experts." Which was the basis for the whole poll. But then they also said "How do you rank the top point guards to ever play in the NBA?"

I chose to base mine off the first. And as for your hypothetical example, I never said shooting wasn't part of being a PG, if someone scored 36 while shooting 60% and was 10% less passer, then I would have to think about it. The rebounding and blocks certainly don't matter for me. And yes, we would have to talk about what makes a PG for my criteria and whatnot, that isn't a metaphysical question though...

[chillzatl]

that mentality only solidifies my point. Stockton was as dominant at his position as ANYONE who ever played the game. He didn't do it with flash though, which is why you and the masses would vote for other players first.

The notion that a guy who averaged 13ppg and 10.5apg for his career, on over 50% shooting and 38% 3pt shooting, while postin ga 3.75:1 assist to turnover ration wasn't dominant is idiotic.

He and magic are shoulder to shoulder in the "best PG ever" race. The only reason I give it to Stockton is because of the teams. Magic ALWAYS had more to work with than Stockton and Magic quite in his prime. We simply don't know how his career stats would have fared had he played 17-18 years, as stockton did.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Stockton was as dominant at his position as ANYONE who ever played the game.

---

No he wasn't. He made that team run very smoothly and efficiently. However, dominant players take games over and Stockton rarely did that on either end of the floor.

Quote:

---

The notion that a guy who averaged 13ppg and 10.5apg for his career, on over 50% shooting and 38% 3pt shooting, while postin ga 3.75:1 assist to turnover ration wasn't dominant is idiotic.

---

If you can't take over a game you aren't dominant overall. If he could take over a game with his high % shooting or his amazing passing I would be with you but I just never saw that. The Jazz were always a good but not great playoff team precisely because they didn't have someone like Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, etc. who could dominate a game.

Stockton didn't play with as much talent as Magic but he did play with the greatest PF in NBA history and with some other quality players like Hornacek. That is better than what Hakeem was working with for nearly all of his career.

* * * *

The simple way to run this poll is to look at guys who played the PG position and rank them in order of how good of players they are. I'd rather have the 5 greatest players in NBA history at each position than the 5 guys who most exemplified the core skills of their position. If you ignore passing skills when assessing an NBA center or ignore perimeter shooting in a PF, etc. it becomes a little too arbitrary for me.

[Diesel]

At first, I thought Stockton.. but if I'm picking, I think Magic is the man.. Stockton would have not caught Magic if Magic's career hadn't been cut short. Moreover, Magic has the rings to show for his greatness. Moreover, head to head, Magic teams dominated (well, that point isn't that great).. Moreover, Magic could do more than just Pass.

[Guest]

Quote:

---

At first, I thought Stockton.. but if I'm picking, I think Magic is the man.. Stockton would have not caught Magic if Magic's career hadn't been cut short. Moreover, Magic has the rings to show for his greatness. Moreover, head to head, Magic teams dominated (well, that point isn't that great).. Moreover, Magic could do more than just Pass.

---

Magic would have slown down on his assist pace. PLUS, he never played a full season. There is no way he would have caught Stockton's assist record, it isn't even close.

Magic has the rings because his team was better. I HATE that argument. Put a center on the 94-98 Jazz and they would have fourpeated. Take away Kareem and Worthy and Magic is playing on lottery teams. That has nothing to do with players.

And as far as Magic dominating a game, people forget that when it was necessary, Stock did do that(playoffs, especially game 6 of western conference finals against the Rockets). Wasn't that much because he rarely did it, but Stock played within the game. Sometimes, Magic forced stuff. Stock not so much.

If we want to add defense to the Stock / Magic comparison, then this isn't even close. You think Al is bad at D? Magic was horrible, my grandma could drive by him. I think he was a matador in a previous life.

If you go with AHF and say Player, then yea sure its Magic. But if you go with Point Guard, then its got to be Stockton. Isn't a point guard supposed to shoot efficiently and set up everyone on the team? Along with great defense, Stock did that to a t.

[Sothron]

I think Mark Price is about ten times the point guard Billups could ever hope to be. Price's career was sadly cut down due to injuries. But when he was healthy he was IMO the best point guard in the NBA, even better than Stockton.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

At first, I thought Stockton.. but if I'm picking, I think Magic is the man.. Stockton would have not caught Magic if Magic's career hadn't been cut short. Moreover, Magic has the rings to show for his greatness. Moreover, head to head, Magic teams dominated (well, that point isn't that great).. Moreover, Magic could do more than just Pass.

---

Magic would have slown down on his assist pace. PLUS, he never played a full season. There is no way he would have caught Stockton's assist record, it isn't even close.

---

Agreed. Magic would not have caught Stockton even without getting AIDS and missing that time.

Quote:

---

Magic has the rings because his team was better. I HATE that argument. Put a center on the 94-98 Jazz and they would have fourpeated.

---

I disagree with the fourpeat prediction and Magic in the lottery but I agree on the team argument.

Quote:

---

And as far as Magic dominating a game, people forget that when it was necessary, Stock did do that(playoffs, especially game 6 of western conference finals against the Rockets). Wasn't that much because he rarely did it, but Stock played within the game. Sometimes, Magic forced stuff. Stock not so much.

---

This I disagree with. I don't think Stockton was capable of dominating anything other than a very rare game. He was not capable on dominating on a consistent basis, IMO. If he was, he should have done it when the Jazz were getting bounced early from the playoffs during the prime of his career:

1st round 1993

1st round 1995

2nd round 1999

Quote:

---

Isn't a point guard supposed to shoot efficiently and set up everyone on the team? Along with great defense, Stock did that to a t.

---

I definitely agree with that. If the criteria is set others up and shoot efficiently, Stockton is your guy.

[DrReality]

My sentimental favorite is Clyde Frazier because he went to SIU, not far from where I grew up. I remember listening to the NIT final game on the radio becasue it wasn't on TV.

The Celtics also had a string of pg's that were great. Not so much individual talent, but that they played within a system that made them great. They also happened to play with Bill Russel.