Cleveland Game....

[drzachary]

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and they aren't 2-1 by simply doing what JJ thinks is the right thing to do out there. I think you read too much into one guys comment, as is often the case around here. It's easy to take a random comment or two and make it fit whatever scenerio we think it should fit.

We're 3 games into a season where we're already down our 2nd best player, we're 2-1 and people are already pointing fingers. I don't think I can take 79 games of this....

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Hmm.. I think we have our second best player on the court right now, and he's tall, gangly and Eastern European! Seroiusly, I'm the new Treasurer of the Zaza Fan Club. Or maybe the conductor of the Pachulia Bandwagon Express. Choose your own metaphor.

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Yeah where are the "we need a center" bitchers and moaners now. Zaza is avg 18/8 and has outplayed Dalembert, Curry, and Dwight Howard. I wonder what the Irishman and the Senagaleze stiff are doing?

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Exactly. And if there's ANYTHING we know beyond a shadow of a doubt (besides that OJ did it) it's that averages based on three games are perfect predictors of future production.

[Johnnybravo4]

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and they aren't 2-1 by simply doing what JJ thinks is the right thing to do out there. I think you read too much into one guys comment, as is often the case around here. It's easy to take a random comment or two and make it fit whatever scenerio we think it should fit.

We're 3 games into a season where we're already down our 2nd best player, we're 2-1 and people are already pointing fingers. I don't think I can take 79 games of this....

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Hmm.. I think we have our second best player on the court right now, and he's tall, gangly and Eastern European! Seroiusly, I'm the new Treasurer of the Zaza Fan Club. Or maybe the conductor of the Pachulia Bandwagon Express. Choose your own metaphor.

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Yeah where are the "we need a center" bitchers and moaners now. Zaza is avg 18/8 and has outplayed Dalembert, Curry, and Dwight Howard. I wonder what the Irishman and the Senagaleze stiff are doing?

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Exactly. And if there's ANYTHING we know beyond a shadow of a doubt (besides that OJ did it) it's that averages based on three games are perfect predictors of future production.

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Yeah since I am sure that Zaza is going to all of a sudden collapse in to a 5ppg/5reb center and be benched for Lo Wright

[chillzatl]

and yah, he's definitely deserving of that title for now.

[Diesel]

Let me stat that a different way for you..

If I were to say the best twos in the game are:

Kobe, Lebron, Tmac, Vince, Wade, and JJ...

Does JJ fit or is JJ just the best player on a poor team?

What it may come down to is that there are definitely 2 tiers of 2 guards.

Maybe you have:

Kobe, Tmac, Lebron, Vince, and Wade on one level..

Then

JJ, Pierce, Allen, Arenas, and Halmilton on the next.

[GoDawgs21]

Ok show me one stat that puts current TMac and Vince in that catagory?? Are we looking at actually play or are we just eating what teh NBA and marketing people throw at you as force fed stars. I am willing to give you that there is an upper level of stars, but lets not put Vince and TMac up there. Two reasons:

First being health. This is an important factor. TMac missed almost a 1/3 of the season last year, and for someone his age it has to be bothersome that you have chronic problems already. Secondly, are you really going to put a guy up there that has admitted to tanking and taking games off????? Vince only plays for the money, bad last 2 years, but how much you wnat to bet he balls out this year because its a contract year.

Secondly, total game. Yes the list is a nice collection of scores. The stat I pointed out included rebs and asst. Wade, Lebron, and to some extent Kobe make their teams better by having an all around game. This is why JJ was rated higher as an overall player then TMac and Vince. With defense, steals, and asst one can be more important to their team. JJ every night not only shoulders the offensive load, but is always covering the opposing teams number one. Loook at the Philly game he had to chase AI everywhere and then come down to the other end and try and score. Thats what Lebron, Wade, and Kobe do. you cant tell me Vince plays a lic of D against anyone. Same for McGrady. Their sole job is shoot and shoot some more. JJ can score 31 on 19 shots meaning less wasted poss. TMac might get you the 30 but on 25 or more shots. Thats not being very efficent.

[Swatguy]

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Let me stat that a different way for you..

If I were to say the best twos in the game are:

Kobe, Lebron, Tmac, Vince, Wade, and JJ...

Does JJ fit or is JJ just the best player on a poor team?

What it may come down to is that there are definitely 2 tiers of 2 guards.

Maybe you have:

Kobe, Tmac, Lebron, Vince, and Wade on one level..

Then

JJ, Pierce, Allen, Arenas, and Halmilton on the next.

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You qualified your question as "a 2 eilte". For simplicity it is debatable. If the question is, "Is JJ an Elite player?". Well I say certainly. Name me what team in this NBA will JJ NOT Start.

The guy will Start without question for EVERY TEAM in the league.

That is Elite.

[DavidSomerset]

JJ man up on Lebron...JJ always plays solid defense, but outside of Kobe, Lebron has got to the be hardest guy in the league to cover man to man.

[AHF]

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Let me stat that a different way for you..

If I were to say the best twos in the game are:

Kobe, Lebron, Tmac, Vince, Wade, and JJ...

Does JJ fit or is JJ just the best player on a poor team?

What it may come down to is that there are definitely 2 tiers of 2 guards.

Maybe you have:

Kobe, Tmac, Lebron, Vince, and Wade on one level..

Then

JJ, Pierce, Allen, Arenas, and Halmilton on the next.

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You qualified your question as "a 2 eilte". For simplicity it is debatable. If the question is, "Is JJ an Elite player?". Well I say certainly. Name me what team in this NBA will JJ NOT Start.

The guy will Start without question for EVERY TEAM in the league.

That is Elite.

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I think a lot of the disagreement on this thread is really over the definition of the word "elite." In my book, you need to be one of the best 3-4 players at your position to be elite. I don't think JJ is there based on his performance in the NBA to date. However, if he keeps this up he will be.

My elite shooting guards are Wade, Lebron, and Kobe.

[TheDude]

Joe Cool to me is another Ray Allen. We have a young Ray Allen on our team. Sweeeeettt..

As far as this game goes, I predicted on the 5game spread that we'd lose this. Too much with this being an away game AND going against a playoff team with Lebron.

BUT if we did win, that tells us we're ahead of schedule.

[Guest]

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JJ man up on Lebron...JJ always plays solid defense, but outside of Kobe, Lebron has got to the be hardest guy in the league to cover man to man.

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I would rather see Smoove play against Lebron. That way JJ can focus on offense more and Smoove can get a real test man-to-man.

[Nicholasp27]

to me, a top 15 player (as jj is ranked) is ELITE

he may not be a superstar, but he's in a class with very few players...

[AHF]

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to me, a top 15 player (as jj is ranked) is ELITE

he may not be a superstar, but he's in a class with very few players...

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Like I said, I think some of the differences here are just semantics. I think everyone views JJ as a top 15 SG.

[Wretch]

I was calling for Woody's axe midway through last season - when our team appeared disoriented, confused, and out of control. I'm not a "ZOMG, fire woody because we lost the 1st game" bandwagon rider. Simply put, they looked the same on opening night.

Now...

It was clear to me that the team did much better when they got up and down the court. It would also make sense to me that we try to push the ball to take advantage of all this athleticism we have - as opposed to the stale halfcourt sets that would fail us if not for JJ taking control and making shots. What's more, I certainly don't see the team going to it's strengths in the half court (ex. - Smoove being able to hoist up long J's as he sees fit).

And yet...

We win and it's the players coming out and saying, "OMG, we're a pretty good running team. Let's do that." And if JJ isn't supposed to be establishing the identity of our team with statements like that, then shouldn't Woody be the one to come out and say it? Or better yet...should JJ be saying anything at all?

It would seem to me that Woody would have this team KNOWING what it's identity is right now; or at least know what they want to do as opposed to players trying to find it and columnists harping on it.

Who are we Woody?

[Peoriabird]

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Who are we Woody?

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Its pretty clear to me, they are a defensive oriented team who takes what is given to them on offense. If the pick and roll is working, they do it. If the other team has a slow footed center Zaza drives past him. If the opposing team has bad transition defense, we'll run them out of the gym. If the opposing team has a small 2 guard, then we'll post him up all game long. If the other team is solid on defense, then we just move the ball until there is an opening and crash the board if the shot is missed.

[chillzatl]

I didn't say you were bandwagoning. I'm pretty sure I remember you calling for his head consistantly last season. It's just par for the course around here.

They didn't just start pushing the ball because JJ decided to do that. If they didn't practice that, with this crew, they'd never win a game doing it. You read too many things into a comment by one player and your dislike of Woodson is the primary reason for that.

They aren't 2-1 simply because of one player. They wouldn't have two wins already if they didn't have a solid idea of what they need to do, as a team, to win games. At the same time, we still aren't a team of vets. They are going to "forget" what works best for them. Being the leader of this team, it's JJ's responsibility to limit that when and where he can. Doing so isn't a condemnation of the coach or the team, it's simply him being a leader.

[Diesel]

How about the fact that both guys have been the player that has carried the wait to carry their team to the playoffs...

What Tmac did for Orlando and what Vince did for Toronto...before the wheels came off, says a lot about their ability.

[Diesel]

Would it make it better for you if I had said:

"An Elite Starting SG"

That is to suggest that every elite SG should already be a starter for his team...

When I say elite, I'm talking about the top 5...

[GoDawgs21]

From CBSSportsline,

During his summer stint as a member of the U.S. national team, Dwyane Wade found himself subjected to plenty of good-natured teasing. He'd hear taunts about his rising popularity, his recent championship and even his Gatorade commercial.

You've seen it. The one with the big heads on children's bodies.

"I'm gonna be K.G."

Just stop right there, Dwyane Wade. You're not the best of the best -- yet. (Getty Images)

"I'm D-Wade."

A lot of kids want to be D-Wade these days. The Miami guard has become a very big fish, and the other fish don't let him forget about it. It has nothing to do with keeping him humble -- Wade has a firm grip on that -- but rather a sign of admiration and respect. It's what the old guard used to do to Michael Jordan. LeBron James might be the "King," but D-Wade is the "Ring." This is his moment.

There also was a time when Kobe Bryant could do no wrong. He owns as many championship rings as Wade has played seasons, but has endured a lifetime's worth of drama since he claimed his last one.

Those are the resumes of the two contenders for the final No. 1 spot in these positional rankings we've been bringing you all month. Kobe and D-Wade, forever linked in history as Shaquille O'Neal tag-team partners, can now also be the subject of a great water cooler debate. They're the best shooting guards to come along since Jordan, but forced to choose, who's better?

Right now, despite Wade's summer surge, it's still Bryant.

Hope these message boards are ready to be bombarded.

While Wade's dynamic style captured a title, he's still not as complete as Bryant, whose Lakers barely managed to make the playoffs. Although Wade's jumper is getting deadlier by the day, he still lacks consistency. Once he gets the perimeter stroke down, there really will be no way to guard him.

Bryant is already there, as he should be, given his tenure in the league. It's hard to believe, but Bryant will start his 11th season when things tip off in late October. The ride has been a wild one, drawing him as many detractors as fans, but no one can deny he's gifted.

Rankings comparison

2006 2005 Stock

1. K. Bryant 1 SAME

2. D. Wade 2 SAME

3. R. Allen 3 SAME

4. R. Hamilton 7

5. V. Carter 4

6. M. Redd 11

7. J. Johnson --

8. M. Ginobili 5

9. J. Richardson 10

10. L. Hughes 9

Complete 2005 rankings

If you want someone to take the final shot of a game, nine times out of 10, Bryant will be your choice. Wade has notched his share of vital game winners throughout his short career, relying on imperial one-on-one skills to get to where he wants to go, but he's not the master yet. Bryant has put in his dues, and although Wade is clearly on the fast track, the veteran still holds a slight edge.

Debate this all year if you must. It's definitely worthy, and probably the reason the league schedule-makers are banking on another Heat-Lakers matchup to draw in the Christmas Day crowd. The O'Neal-Bryant feud is done, but that doesn't mean Kobe and Wade can't be rivals.

1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers: He'll sport jersey No. 24 this season, a move he says signals the start of the second half of his career. Act II is undoubtedly his own now. He's a grown man, and the Lakers are his to build back up. The franchise's fate is in his control, and Lakers fans are right to be optimistic. Last season will be remembered for the 81-point night against Toronto, but the greatest development came during the playoffs, when Bryant bought into the team concept and proved his greatness by making the game easier for his mates. That shows you that he and Phil Jackson may finally be on the same page.

2. Dwyane Wade, Miami: It's scary to think that he still has significant upside, isn't it? It feels like Wade has taken over the world over the past 18 months or so, and the hype machine surrounding him is really only getting started. Signed through 2009, he'll have a great shot to pad that ring total with Shaq in tow and championship experience already in his back pocket.

Ray Allen, Sonics (Getty Images)

3. Ray Allen, Seattle: Lost in the disappointment of last year's Sonics season was how good Allen was. It came down to the final game, but he broke the record for 3-point makes, knocking down 269 at a 41-percent clip. Allen also averaged a career-best 25.1 points per game, keeping Seattle from being worse than it already was. He is the Clyde Drexler of his day, seemingly always in a contemporary's shadow despite being consistently great himself.

4. Richard Hamilton, Detroit: I'll buy into the theory that if he was on another squad where he had to shoulder more responsibility, Rip's rep would be larger than it is. Of course, he wouldn't have a ring to show for it, and that's really what matters. Hamilton is brilliant moving without the ball and coming off screens, and he's a standout defender.

Vince Carter, Nets (Getty Images)

5. Vince Carter, New Jersey: There's no doubt he's back. He stayed healthy in his first full season with the Nets and played with great energy throughout, averaging 24.2 points and 4.3 assists and tying his career best with 5.8 rebounds per game. He's still among the best in the league at taking over a game.

6. Michael Redd, Milwaukee: Redd gave Detroit fits in the playoffs, shooting 52 percent and averaging more than 27 per game. That legitimized him as a star. Had the Ohio native opted to return home to play for Cleveland, the Cavs might be a championship front-runner this season. Instead, he's being paid handsomely to take the Bucks to new heights. So far, he's off to a good start.

7. Joe Johnson, Atlanta: Given the division his acquisition caused in the Hawks front office, he couldn't afford to be a bust. Fortunately, he wasn't. Johnson needed time to adjust, but by season's end he was at ease with the go-to role and regularly putting up big nights. His versatility is his greatest asset, and his best days are ahead of him. Regardless of how good Boris Diaw has turned out to be for Phoenix, you can't argue with picking up Johnson now. He's worth every penny.

8. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio: Momentum from a magical year in which he won Olympic gold and an NBA title was tempered by injuries last season. He played at the FIBA World Championships this summer, so it's not like he took the entire offseason to rest, but all reports indicate he's healthier than he's been in some time. Ginobili's game is unique and dynamic, flopping aside.

9. Jason Richardson, Golden State: He hasn't gotten an All-Star sniff despite being a dominant scorer the last three seasons, averaging a career-best 23.2 last year. He hasn't been able to carry the Warriors to the playoffs and still struggles with his shot selection, no doubt in part to the unending frustration he has seen in the Bay Area.

10. Larry Hughes, Cleveland: Injuries derailed his start in Cleveland and have been a perennial obstacle of late. The experiment with LeBron hasn't really gotten off the ground yet, but it does sound promising, given the opportunity to get on the same page. Hughes is one of the NBA's top thieves and has the right attitude to be the perfect second option.

11. Gerald Wallace, Charlotte: In case you failed to notice, Wallace was among the league's breakout performers last year. He showed off an improved offensive game and was his usual self on the defensive end, making a difference with his athleticism and penchant for steals. With Adam Morrison on board, Wallace will switch from small forward to shooting guard but will still draw the tougher assignments on the wing.

12. Shane Battier, Houston: Jeff Van Gundy is going to let Battier run wild against opposing offensive threats, and that's going to make him one of the most valuable offseason acquisitions in the league. Battier bonded with Bruce Bowen at U.S. national team tryouts and seems poised to pick up the stopper torch. Battier isn't too shabby on the other end of the floor either.

13. Ben Gordon, Chicago: He's streaky and undersized, but can he destroy you when he gets it going. Having a defined role and increased experience should help him get off to a better start than he did while undergoing a sophomore slump, which lasted until he broke out around March.

14. Raja Bell, Phoenix: Kobe's best friend is carving out quite the niche for himself in the Valley of the Sun, transforming himself from productive sub to a valuable cog on a title contender. He has seized his opportunity by coming through in the clutch repeatedly.

15. Wally Szczerbiak, Boston: He seemed to fit in well after coming over from Minnesota, not that it translated into team success. He and Paul Pierce could form a productive wing combo, defensive proficiency notwithstanding. But Szczerbiak has to continue the positive momentum enjoyed last season following a few down years.

16. Cuttino Mobley, L.A. Clippers: Although he scored a bunch of points with Sacramento, he never really felt at home after being separated from buddy Steve Francis and Orlando in one of the worst moves made this decade (for Doug Christie). He looked like his old self with the L.A. Clippers last year, despite his scoring dipping to its lowest point since 1999. Mobley just made a difference, and does so wherever he plays.

17. Bonzi Wells, unaffiliated: That's a neat word -- unaffiliated. In this case, it doesn't mean no one wants him, but it does mean there's a lot of negotiating to be done. Wherever he goes, let's hope Wells can avoid off-court trouble and become a productive asset worthy of the contract he feels he deserves next season.

18. Jerry Stackhouse, Dallas: He's my early favorite for the Sixth Man Award, provided he keeps coming off the bench. Stack looked rejuvenated in the playoffs, taking big shots and relishing key minutes. If the Mavs make it back to the Finals, he'll be a big reason why.

19. Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia: He has a world of ability, but it hasn't appeared in more than flashes through his first two seasons. He has been a serviceable wing, but should be dominating games with his athleticism, particularly defensively. He needs to step it up.

20. Kevin Martin, Sacramento: Martin will be in the running for Most Improved Player, because he's about to blow up for the Kings. Freed from the shadow of Peja Stojakovic, he has an opportunity to become a huge scoring threat. Someone's come a long way from Zanesville, Ohio, and Western Carolina.

Also considered: Stephen Jackson, Indiana; Desmond Mason, New Orleans/Oklahoma City; Morris Peterson, Toronto; Eddie Jones, Memphis; DeShawn Stevenson, Washington; Brandon Roy, Portland; Michael Finley, San Antonio; Fred Jones, Toronto; Flip Murray, Detroit; J.R. Smith, Denver.

So I still think thats a little low, but I can live with it.

[Wretch]

I wasn't saying that he was condeming the coach with his comments. Not at all. What I'm saying is that Woody should be the one coming forward and talking about what kind of team we are and that our players should know that coming into the season.

I'm also not saying that they started pushing the ball because JJ said so. I'm saying he spoke for the team and said that after the win and during the course of they game, they collectively decided to push. The only thing that I insinuate here is that it doesn't SOUND like Woody's coaching is the reason why they have picked it up for a couple of games:

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"It wasn't designed or anything,"

Pachulia said after his 22-point, seven rebound performance. "Sometimes you have to help the leader, and Joe is clearly our first priority.

He had it going, and I just worked off of him and found a way to make plays."

Johnson made 12 of his 24 shots from the floor, finishing with a game-high 30 points and eight assists. While he realizes the need for the Hawks to be able to put games away playing possession basketball,

their identity crisis is something

he said he can solve right now

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"Our identity is running," he said.

"We can't walk the ball up the floor and play a half court game with teams.

We have a bunch of athletes on this team. If somebody scores on us, we have to snatch the ball off the boards and get up and down the floor with the quickness. ... We have to use what we've got."

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Of course, having a coach out there these guys are gonna be better organized on the court and by default, some of this is working. So I agree that they aren't playing like a pickup team and winning games. I also would like to clarify and say that I do not "dislike" Woodson and I don't think he's a terrible coach.

I simply do not think the players are buying into his system...or his system just ins't working. One or the other. We'll see if the winning continues, but from what I have seen in 2 games...our success is due to JJ and ZaZa bailing us out with exceptonal play. And as ZaZa said "it isn't designed or anything."

[Nicholasp27]

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When I say elite, I'm talking about the top 5...

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so who are your top 5?