Please stop defending Smoove so much!!

[hawkman]

But the thing is that 90% of the league is probably the same way. That's why there will always be room for guys like Brian Cardinal or Bruce Bowen in this league. I know there are times that J Smith doesn't seem interested, but maybe it's time that we stop looking at what the players on this team can't do and look at the positive things they bring to the table. The last time I checked, 15 and 7 is pretty good for a guy that could have easily been a bust in this league. I respect everyone's opinion on this subject but I have noticed that every season, one guy gets picked out as the reason this team is losing. It gets to the point that the player in question can do no right. Last season, Al could get 25 and 10 in a losing effort but the only thing that would get mentioned were more "Al plays no defense" or "Al=addition by subtraction" posts. I figured it would have taken more than a 3 game losing streak during a .500 season for it happen this season.

[GoDawgs21]

Hawky if all you do is look at the box score then this is a mute point. Yes 15 and 7 is nice. Notice in 51 minutes!!! Yes 15/7 and 25/10 from Al are nice, but its all about efficency, and total game. You say half the league takes off plays, which I fully believe(why I think our depth is crucial) but to take off a play in the last 2 minutes of a back and forth game ??????? Thats absurd.

Im not completely knocking on him I think he is a good player, but its these moments he spaces out amoung other things that a costing us. My point was you asked how you can say he plays like a rookie, and thats it. A rookie will amaze you one minute and baffle you the next. Thats what he is doing, and in a 3rd year player that has to set off some bells. It could be the coaches not developing him, it could be him. I dont know since im not there on a daily basis. But no 3rd year player should be making the stupid mistakes he does.

[hawkman]

No disrespect intended, but I did watch the actual game. Heck, I've watched every single Hawks game I possibly could since the early 90's. And Smith actually had 16pts, 13rebs, and 4blks in 51mins. That's not half bad for a mid/late 1st round pick. Remember Roshown Mcleowd(sp?)? I think that towards the end of that game, Smoove got caught up in the fact that the Hawks had a run going and took some ill advised threes in an attempt to "get it all back" in one play. If he hits 1 or 2 of those open threes he's the hero of the game and this discussion never takes place. Now I don't disagree with the fact that he needs to work on his shot selection and focus, it's just that I think that there are too many positives in his game to just focus on his shortcomings and single him out. The expectations placed upon him in the beginning were unrealisically high anyway, especially looking at this team's track record when it comes to player development.

[gutz]

We need to keep Smoove. He is still developing. Coming out of highschool completely raw he has definitely made progress no doubt. He just needs more time than players that went to college 2-4 yrs because he isn't on the same level as them mentally. Once we get Marvin back I think he will play better because his minutes will come down some. I just wish Speedy would get friggin healthy for once and then when Marvin comes back we will be ready to go to war with any team in the NBA. We have to win on the road wed. against Detroit who is very beatable. They are not that good. We also have very winnable games coming up against Toronto and Charlotte at home. If we can knock off Orlando or Washington on the road that would be huge. We need to stay at .500 or better until Marvin returns.

[GoDawgs21]

Hawk, for the last time look at my last two post, I am not even talking about him jacking up threes as my problem. Its a lack of hustle, or actually literally standing and watching a play in the final 2 minutes. Most of his shots were wide open looks, I may not be happy with that but I can live with it. When he has his man out on him he needs to drive and draw a foul.

Look at my point, there were a lot of reasons for that loss, missed FT, missed FG, etc etc. But there was one real easy thing that could have won it for us. NOT STANDING AROUND. One play he is diving on the floor, yes, but then the next he stnads there and watchs the ball literally roll at a snails pace back out to Tione. That is effort and having your head in the game. I dont care who you are in the final two minutes, if he just doesnt run by and stop and watch, but just stand there he gets the reb, and keeps 3 points off the board.

We arent saying he is a bad player, we are saying he plays like a rookie. Which 21 or not 3 years into the league you shouldnt be doing.

[Peoriabird]

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Smith actually had 16pts, 13rebs, and 4blks in 51mins. That's not half bad for a mid/late 1st round pick.

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Hawk, you really have to change the way you are analyzing NBA players. Looking at someone's stats and concluding that he is a certain type of player is the Steven A. Smith approach to declaring who is good and who is not.

I get into this discussion all of the time with people who proclaim that Kevin Garnnet is better than Duncan because his stat are better and that Duncan wins because he has a better supporting cast and my response is that Duncan can average 30 points per game easily. All he has to do is shoot more. But Duncan knows that it isn't about his stats, its about the little things that wins games. Josh Smith just doesn't seem to be picking up on those little things.

[Peoriabird]

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I am not going to completely trash or defend Smith, but I see why MW24 says he plays like a rookie. He does huge thins ala the put back that helped us get to OT, but there are little things that he doesnt do that makes him like a rookie. Im not trying to be mean but if you play basektball you notice them.

I literally threw my beer down on one possesion late in the game.

The Hawks were in a zone forcing outside shots. Its harder to rebound to begin with in a zone because you cant immediatly body someone up. Thats why you have to give extra effort. Employee 8 shot a ball from the corner in front of the bench. Josh ran out at him and past him, thats good. The bad part. As a shooter espically from that spot you are taught to follow your shot because 9/10 times it is short and comes right back to you. Josh kept running into the bench (not out of control, just lazyly) turned and watched. Walker did the same, he didnt even move, guess what the ball literally rolled out to him. With any effort Smooth could have taken 2 steps and got in front of him when the shot went up and had an easy reb.

The other play was a 4-2 fast break in the 3rd when we were down 1 and going for the led. Josh got the def. reb and tried to go coast to coast. Lue and JJ were on the wings running with him. He has to give that up, more times then not he passes the def leaves and they toss him an alley oop. Instead he dribbles right into JWilliams and he stole it, wated 4-2 break. Woody just stared him down saying you have two PG's on the break give it up.

Next was the defensive end. On a crucial late 4th quarter possession Lue got switched with JJ on Wade. Wade began to back him down on the baseline. Lue played great d with that height advantage. In that spot you have to shut off the baseline. You let him go baseline and there is no help. it was clear as to this happened before a double team from up top was supposed to come. Lue made Wade go to the middle and Josh just watched he didnt come down at all. Woody called a TO immediatlly and reamed Smoove. You cant just be a spectator.

For all those against Shell, there was a perfect example of his defensive knowledge. One foul he picked up was on an iddentical play. he was almost at the elbow and smith was in the middle of the paint. Wade was posting up JJ, Josh just stood there. Shell crashed all the way down, literally knocking Josh out of the way. he was trying to cover up Josh's mistake and he got called for a cheap foul.

Yes you look at the box score and see 16 and 13 but that was in 51 minutes. 0-5 from 3. Im sorry but I can handle 1 or 2 three's, but 0-5 ????? I dont care if your open drive and make the d play you.

I love Smooth and it pains me badly to say this. But I can at least see a glimps of what Bilas was saying draft night. I think its to a far less extent then stated that night. but it seems Smoove is like a rookie mentally checking out of some plays. yes he does amazing stuff, but in the NBA you have to be in every play you cant take time to be not 100%. Little things like above make a world of differences. Thats why he plays likea rookie, he makes one great play then a bonehead one. i think a lot of this has to be the HS factor. You see guys like Chill and Shell always being in the right place at the right time, that isnt luck. Its good basketball sense that the learned from guys like Coach K and Montgomery. Josh is still mentally playing like a rookie at times whcih concerns me in year 3.

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Awesome post! But I won't be so quick to blame the coaches especially Woodson because like you said, Shelden & Chldress get it. In my opinion, Marvin gets it. Of course you will respond by saying that those guys went to college and my response will be that labron didn't go to college

[hawkman]

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Smith actually had 16pts, 13rebs, and 4blks in 51mins. That's not half bad for a mid/late 1st round pick.

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Hawk, you really have to change the way you are analyzing NBA players. Looking at someone's stats and concluding that he is a certain type of player is the Steven A. Smith approach to declaring who is good and who is not.

I get into this discussion all of the time with people who proclaim that Kevin Garnnet is better than Duncan because his stat are better and that Duncan wins because he has a better supporting cast and my response is that Duncan can average 30 points per game easily. All he has to do is shoot more. But Duncan knows that it isn't about his stats, its about the little things that wins games. Josh Smith just doesn't seem to be picking up on those little things.

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Once again, I did/do watch the game(s). We're just not seeing the same game/player.I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I just don't get what all the fuss is about. I'll admit Smoove has his occasional lapses, but nothing that I could point to and say, "that's what cost us the game!!!" My point is that there are other things that have caused us to lose lately. The biggest of them is the missed free throws in the fourth quarter. Making those would have easily made up for the opposing teams often slim margin of victory. Another are the "phantom" fouls against us whenever we face a "superstar" player. There's not much that can be done about the refs, but there is no excuse for the amount free throws that have been missed in the fourth quarter. Heck, even JJ went 0-2 from the line during a crucial stretch.

[GoDawgs21]

Hawk, neither Peoria or I are saying he flat out by himself cost us the game. Going back to the begining of this thread the debate was Smith playing like a rookie. That's all I have tried to point out, yes this rookie type play factors into W's and L's, but like you said there are many other factors. Our contention if I may summarize for Peroria is that everyone here is acting like Smooth is untradeable, s superstar, etc etc. He is what he is a 21 year old 3rd year NBA player still making mistakes most college players don't. Is this lack of experience, Woody coaching, lack of effort, or my opinion of all 3. Highlights are nice, but I'll take a guy just getting a reb. late in a game as oppossed to a dunk contest champ. (No I'm not saying we should get rid of Smoove, I really like the kid, but would a lot of you get off your knees, spit, wipe mouth, and stop making him into our superstar)

[Final_quest]

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Smith actually had 16pts, 13rebs, and 4blks in 51mins. That's not half bad for a mid/late 1st round pick.

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Hawk, you really have to change the way you are analyzing NBA players. Looking at someone's stats and concluding that he is a certain type of player is the Steven A. Smith approach to declaring who is good and who is not.

I get into this discussion all of the time with people who proclaim that Kevin Garnnet is better than Duncan because his stat are better and that Duncan wins because he has a better supporting cast and my response is that Duncan can average 30 points per game easily. All he has to do is shoot more. But Duncan knows that it isn't about his stats, its about the little things that wins games. Josh Smith just doesn't seem to be picking up on those little things.

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I agree with your general point, and I think Al Harrington is a good example of a player that puts up stats without having much impact on the game. I think the Duncan vs. Garnett thing also has to do with salaries. Garnett was signed before the max, and Duncan afterwards. His supporting cast has been considerably worse due to salary constraints in addition to McHale being a terrible GM. Garnett making all that cash limits the FO. Duncan is still the better player however.

[hawkman]

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Hawk, neither Peoria or I are saying he flat out by himself cost us the game. Going back to the begining of this thread the debate was Smith playing like a rookie. That's all I have tried to point out, yes this rookie type play factors into W's and L's, but like you said there are many other factors. Our contention if I may summarize for Peroria is that everyone here is acting like Smooth is untradeable, s superstar, etc etc. He is what he is a 21 year old 3rd year NBA player still making mistakes most college players don't. Is this lack of experience, Woody coaching, lack of effort, or my opinion of all 3. Highlights are nice, but I'll take a guy just getting a reb. late in a game as oppossed to a dunk contest champ. (No I'm not saying we should get rid of Smoove, I really like the kid, but would a lot of you get off your knees, spit, wipe mouth, and stop making him into our superstar)

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Smoove is not a superstar. In fact, he is far from it. I thought he was more of a "homer" pick, especially with jameer nelson still on the board. And he definitely is not untradeable. I'm not one those guys who looks at this team's roster with rose colored glasses either. Before he played his first NBA game, all I had to go on about him was an NBAdraft.net analysis and Bilas' comments about him on draft night. But from the comments that were made about him the night he was drafted, I think he has done surprisingly well. I was expecting another timid, gangly teenager who would most likely end up in the NBDL or overseas. For some reason, people's expectations since then have grown exponentially. He was very raw coming out of high school and it shows. But you have to admit that he has made a lot of progress from the first game he played in a Hawks uniform. He would probably come off of the bench with any other team in the league, but you could probably say that about every single starter we have except JJ. I guess it depends on what your expectations were when he was drafted. I didn't expect much so I was pleasantly surprised by his play and the fact that he's progressed to the extent he has.

[GoDawgs21]

So you do agree with us. Our whole statement was people have to stop defending him. He still plays like a rookie and isnt our star. Some people on here, mostly with Smoove in their SN tend to think he is akin to Garnett.

[terrynoonan]

Can we have some of what they're taking. I like the guy, but his role needs to be limited. He cannot dribble. Period. That kills his game. He also loses his man way too much on D. Garnett is arguably the most talented big man to ever play the game. Maybe Smoove will turn into a super freak smaller version of Big Smooth. (Sam Perkins) for you youngsters. A more athletic Robert Horry? I like Josh's stroke. It looks good. He will be a very good 3 point shooter one day. That day though, is not today. We just need to get a coach that can use him properly. He is a young kid. It falls on the coach with me.

[hawkman]

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So you do agree with us. Our whole statement was people have to stop defending him. He still plays like a rookie and isnt our star. Some people on here, mostly with Smoove in their SN tend to think he is akin to Garnett.

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Welllll, yes and no. While I don't see Smoove as the next coming of Nique, I do see him as a decent player with the ability to be a solid starter in this league. He has great athleticism and somewhat of a nasty sreak but his focus is not always there. His dribbling, shooting, and court awareness need work but that's a part of the player development you should expect when drafting someone so young. Smoove wasn't exactly considered a baketball "prodigy" like a Garnett, Kobe, or Lebron. Some players just take longer to grasp the nuances of the game.

[GoDawgs21]

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So you do agree with us. Our whole statement was people have to stop defending him. He still plays like a rookie and isnt our star. Some people on here, mostly with Smoove in their SN tend to think he is akin to Garnett.

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Welllll, yes and no. While I don't see Smoove as the next coming of Nique, I do see him as a decent player with the ability to be a solid starter in this league. He has great athleticism and somewhat of a nasty sreak but his focus is not always there. His dribbling, shooting, and court awareness need work but that's a part of the player development you should expect when drafting someone so young. Smoove wasn't exactly considered a baketball "prodigy" like a Garnett, Kobe, or Lebron. Some players just take longer to grasp the nuances of the game.

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Thank you for proving our point, please read again if this was written about any NBA player and you didnt know who you would assume a rookie, talent, but not quite there yet. problem he is in his 3rd year and still making rookie mistakes. The real question is it his fault or the coaching staff.