Forget it, Marvin is THE reason for our woes..

[TexasPete]

ONE reason is a lot different than THE reason. Don't you think? And remember back about 6 weeks ago people on this same board were calling out YOUR BOY. They were saying he wouldn't ever measure up, poor ball handler, he wasn't smart, no post game, too many turnovers, defensive lapses, poor attitude, shot too many 3's, blah blah....BTW, he had 8 turnovers today. Good thing that wasn't Marvin.

People now are all on board the Smoove bandwagon because in the last 6 weeks he has gotten better. Thats what happens when 20 year old players finally start figuring it out. There were more than a few people who thought Smoove should be trade bait...where are they now?

[AtLaS]

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Wow. That really hurts my feelings. So, you think, with all the issues facing the Hawks, that MW is THE reason they suck?

You stupidity is stunning. Its not the owners...the GM...the coach...the lack of never having a PG or inside defense.

Marvin is THE reason. Your a moron.

Put that in your sig..

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No you are a moron for thinking that he isn't the reason. If you actually read my original post, I stated that I don't blame Marvin I blame BK. I would have entered the draft had I known I would go top 2 also.

BK (the GM) is the reason we have Marvin. And it's the owners fault for not firing BK and Woodson. Although Woodson isn't a good coach, if we had Deron or Paul we'd be a playoff team regardless. So yes, in the end, the Marvin PICK is the sole reason for our woes. There are other small reasons, but none near as apparent or damaging as this one.

The Marvin pick was the equivalent to us getting the #1 this year and passing Oden to take someone like Thaddeus Young, just rediculous on ALL counts.

[drzachary]

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Wow. That really hurts my feelings. So, you think, with all the issues facing the Hawks, that MW is THE reason they suck?

You stupidity is stunning. Its not the owners...the GM...the coach...the lack of never having a PG or inside defense.

Marvin is THE reason. Your a moron.

Put that in your sig..

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No you are a moron for thinking that he isn't the reason. If you actually read my original post, I stated that I don't blame Marvin I blame BK. I would have entered the draft had I known I would go top 2 also.

BK (the GM) is the reason we have Marvin. And it's the owners fault for not firing BK and Woodson. Although Woodson isn't a good coach, if we had Deron or Paul we'd be a playoff team regardless. So yes, in the end, the Marvin PICK is the sole reason for our woes. There are other small reasons, but none near as apparent or damaging as this one.

The Marvin pick was the equivalent to us getting the #1 this year and passing Oden to take someone like Thaddeus Young, just rediculous on ALL counts.

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Did you start following basketball before or after the Bogut/Williams/Deron/Paul draft? Just curious.

[Lascar78]

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The Marvin pick was the equivalent to us getting the #1 this year and passing Oden to take someone like Thaddeus Young, just rediculous on ALL counts.

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This quote is SIGNIFICANTLY more ridiculous than what TexasPete said. Not even close.

Just like everyone acknowledges Oden as the #1 guy this year, everyone acknowledged Bogut-Marvin as the top 2 of that year. That's just a fact. There was them 2, then Paul-Deron, then the rest. In hindsight we should have passed on potential and taken a PG, but taking Marvin in the top 2 is NOTHING like passing on Oden to take Young. That would be more like picking Sean May at #2.

[drzachary]

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The Marvin pick was the equivalent to us getting the #1 this year and passing Oden to take someone like Thaddeus Young, just rediculous on ALL counts.

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This quote is SIGNIFICANTLY more ridiculous than what TexasPete said. Not even close.

Just like everyone acknowledges Oden as the #1 guy this year, everyone acknowledged Bogut-Marvin as the top 2 of that year. That's just a fact. There was them 2, then Paul-Deron, then the rest. In hindsight we should have passed on potential and taken a PG, but taking Marvin in the top 2 is NOTHING like passing on Oden to take Young. That would be more like picking Sean May at #2.

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What's the old adage about arguing on the internet? I think it applies here.

[Guest Walter]

Having a choice between Thabeet and Bill Walker (prior to ACL tear). Bill Walker is a hyped player and the media picks up on that, publishing the same report over and over again, but Thabeet plays a position of need and will be a franchise player (one you keep through their 2nd contract at least) at his position (like Paul or Deron).

If watched more UNC games than Joe-media-repeater and could CLEARLY tell he was not potentially any better than Deron or Paul and that they, playing the difficult to fill well and needed Pg position, were the more obvious choice for us. It particularly hurts that Chris Paul practically cried when he wasn't selected to play for the Hawks.

Frankly, BK got it wrong when a player was (MW) and wasn't (SW) the consensus so I don't the it matters much. BK just gets it wrong, period.

W

[AtLaS]

To answer your question, WAY before, what would make you think otherwise?

So you know, I'm a college student that has followed Hawks basketball since as long as I can remember. Used to go to Hawks-Bulls games back when Jordan was playing, and I still remember our teams when we had Willis, Augmon, Nique, Smitty, Mookie, and so on. I remember Henry James hitting big shot after big shot, and setting (I think) our franchise record for like 8 or 9 threes in a game. I also remember Sportcenter back in the days saying, noone wants to play the Hawks in the playoffs, yet we got the Bulls (I think) and they smoked us.

[AtLaS]

Ok so I am exaggerating a little. Either way it was a horrible decision..

[drzachary]

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To answer your question, WAY before, what would make you think otherwise?

So you know, I'm a college student that has followed Hawks basketball since as long as I can remember. Used to go to Hawks-Bulls games back when Jordan was playing, and I still remember our teams when we had Willis, Augmon, Nique, Smitty, Mookie, and so on. I remember Henry James hitting big shot after big shot, and setting (I think) our franchise record for like 8 or 9 threes in a game. I also remember Sportcenter back in the days saying, noone wants to play the Hawks in the playoffs, yet we got the Bulls (I think) and they smoked us.

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I thought that because your recollection of the Bogut draft is incredibly inaccurate. You say that our selection of the consensus #2 pick is equivalent to if the #1 pick of the draft this year is not the consensus pick of Oden.

Lots of people have this strange memory of everyone saying that Williams was a player with less potential than those who followed him, but the only person who really seemed to object to the pick was d*ck Vitale.

Corrolary: how do you feel about d*ck Vitale's skills as an analyst?

[TexasPete]

In hindsight, Deron was a better pick than Marvin. However, the kid will be fine. It just takes a little longer because of his age and inexperience. But I know this kid is going to be a damn good player in the league. Patience is not something people want when talking about the #2 pick. The Shelden pick is the real disaster because he was supposed to be ready. We weren't drafting potential with Shelden, in fact we were strongly desiring a more finished product. His stunning lack of any offensive moves or even playing good defense is discouraging. And its clear that what ails Shelden cannot be fixed like what ails Marvin. Shelden suffers from a lack of athletic ability. His defenders on draft day wanted an inside shot blocker and defensive presence and Shelden has none of that stuff. Against the Celts today I focused on him for awhile and he just gets smoked on defense because he isn't quick enough or athletic enough. This guy is the #5 pick and he isn't really ready. I swear Sol Jones does better when he plays.

Atlas, you dig deeper everytime you post. Best to move on to another subject.

[AtLaS]

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I thought that because your recollection of the Bogut draft is incredibly inaccurate. You say that our selection of the consensus #2 pick is equivalent to if the #1 pick of the draft this year is not the consensus pick of Oden.

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My recollection of that draft is not inaccurate, it may look like that by what I typed (mainly out of frustration), but trust me I remember it greatly. And yes, I knew ALL about the Marvin hype and that he was considered the #1 prospect by many, and Bogut was considered #1 for many teams. However, 75% of mocks that I read STILL had us taking Paul or Deron, and we were criticized by ESPN after the pick, EVEN THO they had Marvin as their BPA, just for the fact that we already had so much potential at SF.

However I didn't post here much during that time, I posted at RealGM. I was never a big Bogut fan, although I would have taken him if available. I wasn't a big Marvin fan for the simple fact that we already had 3 first round SF's on our team already, Al Harrington, AND considering how unproven he was. It was just too big a risk considering the PG's in that draft and our dire need of one.

My favorite PG in the 05 draft was Raymond Felton, but I was also a big Paul fan. I was not a big Deron fan at the time though. I wanted to make the #2 for 5 and 13 to Charlotte to get Ray at 5, but if that didn't happen I wanted Paul at 2.

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Corrolary: how do you feel about

d*ck

Vitale's skills as an analyst?

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I've always liked Vitale as an analyst. He is a bigtime backer in people returning to school, which I'm sure is why he wasn't a big Marvin fan (although I'm just going by what you say, I don't remember his exact thoughts on Marvin).

[TheNorthCydeRises]

it's easy to tell the ages on this board. our young posters always take extreme positions which are irrational. fact is, bk would be idiotic to give away marvin after just 1.5 years of evaluation.

[rascurrein]

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it's easy to tell the ages on this board. our young posters always take extreme positions which are irrational. fact is, bk would be idiotic to give away marvin after just 1.5 years of evaluation.

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So Woody is 15 years old?

[AtLaS]

Fact is, BK made a huge mistake by taking Marvin.

Do you HONESTLY think BK made the right decision? Would you agree that if we had Paul or Deron that we'd be better than .500?

I'm not saying that we trade Marvin, but if the right deal came along I'd definately do it.

[TexasPete]

We got more than you think with Marvin but did not get huge help immediately. He will ultimately be a great consolation prize. He is 20 and averaging 12.1. He is most certainly not THE reason the Hawks are struggling.

We have the worst ownership mess in sports and maybe in the history of all sports. I cannot recall owners in court fighting for control in any situation.

We have a failure in the GM position, a man who hasn't the first clue how to assemble a TEAM.

We have a coach who is in well beyond his capabilities so these young players don't get the benefit of real professional intruction.

We have some major issues facing this team. Blaming Marvin for all of our issues isn't just misguided it is lunacy.

We all know that Marvin is not your choice and is a bust in your view at age 20. There are others that feel the same. But, in the end, Marvin Williams will be a sweet NBA player. It may not be until he is 22 or 23. But it will happen in due course.

[drzachary]

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However, 75% of mocks that I read STILL had us taking Paul or Deron, and we were criticized by ESPN after the pick, EVEN THO they had Marvin as their BPA, just for the fact that we already had so much potential at SF.

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75% of mocks had us taking Paul?

The only mock I've found online that didn't have us taking Marvin had us taking Bogut (Marvin went #1.)

You're just making stuff up now.

[AtLaS]

yes, at least 75% had us taking Paul OR Deron. All the mocks you find now are the ones that were RIGHT before the draft, when it was obvious that BK was hinting towards Marvin, and yes, it was obvious he was hinting towards Marvin.

This made a lot of mocks change. BTW why would ESPN blast us for taking Marvin when they had Marvin as their #1 overall prospect? I agree ESPN and pretty much all national media blasts the Hawks, but they even admitted he was #1 in their eyes, but we should have went with one of the pgs.

[Popeye]

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Do you HONESTLY think BK made the right decision? Would you agree that if we had Paul or Deron that we'd be better than .500?

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I don't think anybody thinks that BK made the right decision, but just leave Marvin alone. I wanted Paul before the draft as well, but be happy watch you got.

[TexasPete]

Marvin was the easy consensus as the player with the most UPSIDE in that draft. This a not even a matter for debate. Most fans were wondering whether or not the Bucks were taking Bogut or Marvin. Even today people like Chad Ford will tell you that NBA people STILL think Marvin will be THE best player in that draft...in 4 to 5 years.

What we don't like is how long it may take MW because these Hawks need help now. But that doesn't diminish his prospects for becoming a great player over time. I'm sorry this issue is so difficult for you.

[AHF]

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However, 75% of mocks that I read STILL had us taking Paul or Deron, and we were criticized by ESPN after the pick, EVEN THO they had Marvin as their BPA, just for the fact that we already had so much potential at SF.

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Your memory needs a little clarifying on the mocks piece here. Any mock having us taking Paul or Deron was an exception to the vast majority having us taking Marvin Williams.

You do, however, accurately recall Chad Ford saying Marvin was the BPA and then criticizing the Hawks for taking him. Anyone who doesn't think the Hawks are damned either way in his eyes hasn't read Chad Ford's columns for the last few years. The guy still defends the Darko pick...