Forget it, Marvin is THE reason for our woes..

[AHF]

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Even the mocks that had us taking a PG typically acknowledged that Bogut-Marvin were the two potential stars, but that given our SFs and our lack of PG we should pass on potential and draft for need.

EVERYONE had Bogut-Marvin as the top 2 out of that draft. Everyone.

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Except d*ck Vitale!

However, if you start lauding Vitale's skills as an analyst.......

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Actually, check out my post above. Vitale has Marvin as the #2 player in the draft behind Bogut. I don't, however, laud Vitale's draft skills especially given his blatant conflicts of interest.

[AtLaS]

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anyone remember the "I don't really like basketball that much" comments from him (or something to that effect).

W

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I remember like yesterday. Add to that the fact that he DOESN'T watch the NBA on TV, AND his high school team had a LOSING record.. find me the last top 10 high school player whose team had a losing record.

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But the pick was INDEFENSIBLE had one watched enough of MWs and/or had one remotely considered team needs.

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If it was such a can't miss prospect as Durant who may very well be the CPOY it would be understandable, but given our situation and the fact of how unproven he was, you are completely correct..

[drzachary]

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Even the mocks that had us taking a PG typically acknowledged that Bogut-Marvin were the two potential stars, but that given our SFs and our lack of PG we should pass on potential and draft for need.

EVERYONE had Bogut-Marvin as the top 2 out of that draft. Everyone.

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Except d*ck Vitale!

However, if you start lauding Vitale's skills as an analyst.......

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Actually, check out my post above. Vitale has Marvin as the #2 player in the draft behind Bogut. I don't, however, laud Vitale's draft skills especially given his blatant conflicts of interest.

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Oh, wow.. I just remember him going insane, saying that Woody should demand that his employment last as long as Marvin's contract, because he would take a few years to develop, and wouldn't help right away.

The reason I would like people to admit that they thought Vitale was right is because Vitale loved the Shelden pick

[drzachary]

Why do we 'continue to defend f-ups?'

He is a young player. The VAST MAJORITY of young players, regardless of where they are picked, take time to develop. Marvin is no exception. The only reason you continue to PROSECUTE him is because you want him to fail so you can be 'right' and win some mythical Being Right on the Internet Award.

Yes, yes, yes, we all know now that you are the scout that all the GMs should be paying, not their existing staff. Just give it a rest already.

It's very possible that the consensus can be wrong about events in the future. It's also very likely that the consensus was wrong about Marvin in the past. However, consensus picks usually are just that for a reason. (And it wasn't ignorant media types lauding Marvin, it was players, coaches, scouts, and front office staff.) Maybe they were wrong? ONLY TIME CAN TELL.

As for how many ACC games I've watched, I grew up watching GaTech throughout the 90s. I spent way too many hours creating spreadsheets of what I considered improper Duke fouls Once you invent a time machine, I'll go back so I can get an exact count of the games for you.

And to say that Shelden wasn't even thought top 10? Prove it. The only arguments I've seen for us not taking Shelden are "we should draft the best player, not a need," in which case you can take your "we need a PG" arguments and toss them forever into the chasm of Mount Doom, or "he would be available later" in which case the grand consolation prize is Luther Head and a slightly smaller contract for Shelden at the 8th pick.

I loathe Shelden as a person with every fiber of my being, as he played for Puke. That will never, ever change. That said, I can see through my obvious bias and realize his value, and how he may continue to be valuable for us.

Rebounds increase possessions. Shelden is a good rebounder... probably the best we have. He's still a good prospect (oddly enough, most rate him as the 5th-7th best rookie this year, which isn't bad.)

I know you'll probably respond to my tirade with more annoying warbling about how we shouldn't 'defend' our players. If we're not defending them, we're attacking them, and that's where you find yourself. I'm going to *question your patriotism* again and surmise that all you really care about is being proven right. You don't care one lick about how the team does.

For your own mental health, for mine, and for the sanity of the forums, please take a vacation.

[Guest Walter]

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Why do we 'continue to defend f-ups?'

I'm going to *question your patriotism* again and surmise that all you really care about is being proven right. You don't care one lick about how the team does.

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What an annoying, apologist, crock KB. If you're a Duke hater as you say it generally leads to UNC sympathies. Regardless, you talked alot about watching ACC basketball, but NOT ONE MENTION of watching MW. NOT ONE! Did you see any of MW's games or just "defending" a player you hardly witnessed.

Again, the "media darling consensus" (as if other coaches and GM's would give you a straight answer) you use to defend your own Junior GM ego. I don't care about being right on this one. I stated I would have chosen Deron over Paul and last year that didn't look so right, but it's about 50/50 that it is now. That didn't stop me from telling it like it is regarding MW, something I was far more certain about than the difference between the Pgs.

You sound more like KB or a Junior GM trying to cover his ass. Get real.

W

[Guest Walter]

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I remember like yesterday. Add to that the fact that he DOESN'T watch the NBA on TV, AND his high school team had a LOSING record.. find me the last top 10 high school player whose team had a losing record.

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UGH! He can be carried to an NCAA title but couldn't carry a HS team to a .500 record? The only thing sadder than that was BK counting on this guy to develop into anything special. All Jr. GMs still in favor of MW need to turn in their fantasy cards RIGHT NOW!

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If it was such a can't miss prospect as Durant who may very well be the CPOY it would be understandable, but given our situation and the fact of how unproven he was, you are completely correct..

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I just don't understand picking a guy who doesn't even like the sport, can't elevate his HS team as the man, nad who IF YOU WATCH HIM was not a great prospect over a guy like Paul, who practiacally cried about coming to play for Atlanta, who would have drawn several thousand more fans almost instantly, and who was simply better.

W

[AHF]

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If you're a Duke hater as you say it generally leads to UNC sympathies.

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As a Duke hater, I take offense at that statement.

[drzachary]

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Why do we 'continue to defend f-ups?'

I'm going to *question your patriotism* again and surmise that all you really care about is being proven right. You don't care one lick about how the team does.

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What an annoying, apologist, crock KB. If you're a Duke hater as you say it generally leads to UNC sympathies. Regardless, you talked alot about watching ACC basketball, but NOT ONE MENTION of watching MW. NOT ONE! Did you see any of MW's games or just "defending" a player you hardly witnessed.

Again, the "media darling consensus" (as if other coaches and GM's would give you a straight answer) you use to defend your own Junior GM ego. I don't care about being right on this one. I stated I would have chosen Deron over Paul and last year that didn't look so right, but it's about 50/50 that it is now. That didn't stop me from telling it like it is regarding MW, something I was far more certain about than the difference between the Pgs.

You sound more like KB or a Junior GM trying to cover his ass. Get real.

W

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There you go again. Do you understand how the word 'apologist' is used? It typically means to defend the indefensible. If you honestly feel that way about Marvin, you clearly are convinced he will not ever improve, nor do you even hope for his improvement.

I saw MW tons of times, in person even. [Edit: actually, he didn't play @ gatech that year. nevermind! the point remains.] I didn't think he was all that, but then again, I'm not a scout. Neither are you, for that matter! Furthermore, college PERFORMANCE is only one factor scouts use. Physical tools mean a lot, probably too much (case in point: Paul vs Marvin) Look at how low Redick went.

There are two issues here: arguing that Marvin was the wrong pick, which is about as easy as arguing that the sun is hot. It's a given. The second issue is ATTACKING, PROSECUTING, and BASHING Marvin, and hoping for his guilt. That is what you are doing, and it's tiresome. If you didn't attack him, he wouldn't need 'defenders.' Just let the guy grow and improve. He's shown he can. Or did you not watch any Hawks games last year?

[drzachary]

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If you're a Duke hater as you say it generally leads to UNC sympathies.

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As a Duke hater, I take offense at that statement.

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Agreed, I'm not much more of a UNC fan.

[Guest Walter]

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There you go again. Do you understand how the word 'apologist' is used? It typically means to defend the indefensible. If you honestly feel that way about Marvin, you clearly are convinced he will not ever improve,

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This it means.

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nor do you even hope for his improvement.

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This it does not.

I saw MW tons of times, in person even. [Edit: actually, he didn't play @ gatech that year. nevermind! the point remains.] I didn't think he was all that, but then again, I'm not a scout. Neither are you, for that matter! Furthermore, college PERFORMANCE is only one factor scouts use. Physical tools mean a lot, probably too much (case in point: Paul vs Marvin) Look at how low Redick went.

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[AtLaS]

11-13, SAD.. In the great state of Washington basketball, I'm sorry but Washington basketball probably isn't in the top 25 states in the USA..

[Guest Walter]

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11-13, SAD.. In the great state of Washington basketball, I'm sorry but Washington basketball probably isn't in the top 25 states in the USA..

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While a guarantee you no reporter knew the fact that MW was a loser as leader, it d@mn well is BK's job to know that and a hell-of-alot more. He's supposed to know this stuff. You don't draft a loser in HS who couldn't carry or lead his team to a mere winning record in the state of Washington as the franchise savior, especially when you already have a better Sf prospect, need and Pg, and its the best Pg draft in 10 years. CRAZY!

W

[Yeti]

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Add to that the fact that he DOESN'T watch the NBA on TV, AND his high school team had a LOSING record.. find me the last top 10 high school player whose team had a losing record.

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I'm not sure that a high school record means much of anything but I know the Bremerton area and know that Marvin didn't have much support on his team. He could have transfered across the sound and played in Seattle with Nate Robinson, Brenden Roy, Martell Webster, Spencer Hawes, or CJ Giles. But he stayed in his hometown and tried to help them out as much as possible. Some details:

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Averaged 28.7 points and 15.5 rebounds, five blocked shots and five assists as a senior at Bremerton High School in Bremerton, Wash. • Earned McDonald's and Parade All-America honors • Also played at the Roundball Classic in Chicago • Two-time all-state selection and the Washington Player of the Year by the Associated Press • Averaged 31 points with a high of 37 points in four postseason games last year • Had a season-high 45 points in a win over Gig Harbor and added two other 42-point games as a senior • Had 20 or more rebounds in five different games with a high of 25 • Blocked 11 shots twice as a senior and had 10 in another game • Averaged 23.9 points and 14 rebounds as a junior and was named area player of the year • Also played soccer • Assisted with Special Olympics and volunteered with an elementary school reading program

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Just five days after Marvin Williams was sent to the emergency room with viral meningitis, he scored 42 points, tying the Bremerton High School record and helping his team down the North Kitsap Vikings, 74-59.

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Marvin Williams was already a highly-touted player coming out of 8th grade, as there was debate even then about whether he was going to go to Seattle to attend the private O'Dea High School in Seattle or if he was going to stay in Bremerton and eventually wear the blue and gold (yellow). He chose to stay in B-town to, as he once said, put Bremerton on the map. That's exactly what he did.

Needless to say, given the state of most Bremerton athletics, a talent like Marvin was instantly recognized as a hope for the school, and since the whole thing got big enough, the hope of a city. Unfortunately for all involved, Marvin wasn't exactly blessed with the best supporting casts in Bremerton basketball history on the court.

From personal experience, I was fortunate enough to catch a game at the ol' gym last winter, and it was Central Kitsap at Bremerton. Marvin threw down quite the dunk in the early going, but the team played sloppy, whether it was bad passes, losing the dribble, getting the ball stolen, forced shots; it was brutal to watch. If you triple-team Marvin and he's the only one who can score, that's asking a lot from Marvin if you're expecting to win games. Thus, not as many games were won.

But another thing that captivated locals was the college recruitment process that was going on. Lorenzo Romar? Roy Williams? These people aren't supposed to come to Bremerton, right? But come they did.

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"I think he's the most unique individual I've ever been around to be that gifted, yet that caring, that humble, that appreciative," said his college coach, Roy Williams. "He's an unbelievable young man who is going to be a big, big pro for a long time."

ESPN draft analyst Jay Bilas praised the pick and Williams:

"The sky is the limit as far as his potential is concerned," Bilas said. "Marvin Williams is the real deal and the complete package. "We may look back in five or six years and say that Marvin Williams was the player out of this draft."

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And all that crap about him not watching the NBA on TV ... well I watch it all the time and it hasn't helped me any. I still play like a retard. Marvin played multiple sports, worked in the evenings, got very good grades, and did volunteer work. That plus the fact that he lived in an area where there are more outdoors activities than here - I'm not disappointed in him not watching enough TV.

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That said, I AM also disappointed in Marvin's play. Whether it's the injury, his youth, or he's just not as good as expected - I don't know. But let's focus on his play in a Hawks uniform and cut out the high school discussions. We unfortunately have plenty to talk about. Maybe he'll do a Smoove and turn it on late in his second year. Maybe not. I hope so - but I don't see the coaching being effective in helping these guys develop.

[Guest Walter]

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And all that crap about him not watching the NBA on TV ... well I watch it all the time and it hasn't helped me any. I still play like a retard. Marvin played multiple sports, worked in the evenings, got very good grades, and did volunteer work. That plus the fact that he lived in an area where there are more outdoors activities than here - I'm not disappointed in him not watching enough TV.

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He doesn't even like to watch it. Doesn't even like to watch the sport he got picked 2nd overall to dominate in. Come on man. THAT IS DISTURBING!

We didn't draft him for being a good citizen. That's nice and all but I'd rather have more Allen Iverson in him than Marvin Williams. As it stands he's just never going to have the will to reach even his potential. But I'm sure he'll win the Brian Grant award or something like that.

Sorry you play like a retard.

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That said, I AM also disappointed in Marvin's play. Whether it's the injury, his youth, or he's just not as good as expected - I don't know. But let's focus on his play in a Hawks uniform and cut out the high school discussions. We unfortunately have plenty to talk about. Maybe he'll do a Smoove and turn it on late in his second year. Maybe not. I hope so - but I don't see the coaching being effective in helping these guys develop.

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I think we can focus upon it all. As his team leader he couldn't make them winners, walked out of the draft because he wasn't good enough against similar HSers, was carried by 3 other lottery picks to the NCAA title, and since then he has looked simply weak willed, even when he tries to bark at his team it sounds pathetic cause he goes and shoots 27% the next 5 games. He's just so far removed from being even JS, who BTW should not be the standard for MW. We already had JS. Why do we need his hopeful equal and another Sf? MW was supposed to be a whole 'nother level beyond him or else there is absolutely NO reason for drafting MW over a franchise Pg.

W

[BusBoyIsBack]

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We beat a bad team missing their two best players. Sorry if i am somewhat less than thrilled.

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Would you rather we had lost?

I swear the only thing more frustrating than a young team like the Hawks is the pessmistic fans.

Marvin is a bust because he missed a dunk?

The man is 20 years old in his first year as a starter and not even 100% healthy.

Some of you don't seem to know how things work.

[jerrywest]

Yeti - Great post.

Lots of info there.

I didn't know MW is such a great guy. Assisted with Special Olympics. Wow. How many of us do that?

[exodus]

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Marvin is a bust because he missed a dunk?

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I never said he was a bust Mr Strawman. I said he has been playing like crap this year and the Boston game was no exception.

Maybe you can get happy about barely beating a bad team that was missing Peirce, Wally, Delonte and Ratliff but I can't. Maybe you don't mind seeing the Hawks get lit up by young guys like Green and Jefferson while Marvin lays an egg. Good for you.

[Yeti]

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Sorry you play like a retard.

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I knew you'd like that. It is true. I'm big and all elbows. Maybe that's why I like Este.

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He's just so far removed from being even JS, who BTW should not be the standard for MW. We already had JS. Why do we need his hopeful equal and another Sf? MW was supposed to be a whole 'nother level beyond him or else there is absolutely NO reason for drafting MW over a franchise Pg.

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I'll give you credit, Diesel. You were just as adamant before the draft that we get Paul. I thought you were nuts but you were right.

I do really like Smoove. He's finally growing up and got past the dunk championship and his 3-pt phase. Now he's starting to play like an adult. I'm hoping Marvin will eventually do the same. They can play very well together. But remember Marvin didn't force us to pick him. If you are pissed about it, jump on BK. He's an idiot. Marvin is one of our KIDS whether we like it or not.

[Guest Walter]

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Sorry you play like a retard.

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I knew you'd like that. It is true. I'm big and all elbows. Maybe that's why I like Este.

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Who happens to be my favorite Hawk. Secretly my "tank" plan is to give Este some PT and responsibility. I really think he's got an offensive game under all that force but Woody's doing to him his best Diaw under my thumb impression.

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You were just as adamant before the draft that we get Paul. I thought you were nuts but you were right.

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Both Diesel and I wanted Deron but, oh well.

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I do really like Smoove. He's finally growing up and got past the dunk championship and his 3-pt phase. Now he's starting to play like an adult. I'm hoping Marvin will eventually do the same. They can play very well together. But remember Marvin didn't force us to pick him. If you are pissed about it, jump on BK. He's an idiot. Marvin is one of our KIDS whether we like it or not.

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Are you accusing me of not riding BK enough on this matter or most any other matter? I'm going to have to somehow try harder then.

W

[AtLaS]

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He could have transfered across the sound and played in Seattle with Nate Robinson, Brenden Roy, Martell Webster, Spencer Hawes, or CJ Giles.

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And let some other all americans carry him to the state title?