Forget it, Marvin is THE reason for our woes..

[Hoosier]

MW has unlimited talent, and you did not hear it here first.

He is another fallout(see Diaw) of a player that cannot thrive in a non-exsistant offensive system. The only difference is MW has a much better attitude than Boris, and is probably putting undue pressure on himself right now.

MW will eventually learn how to play "streetball", just like Josh and Josh did. He may even blow it out for the next game or two, shutting everyone up, but he probably will not shake off the Woody blues completely the rest of this season.

Just be patient until a real coach comes to Atlanta, then you will see the real Marvin.

[AHF]

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Fact is, BK made a huge mistake by taking Marvin.

Do you HONESTLY think BK made the right decision? Would you agree that if we had Paul or Deron that we'd be better than .500?

I'm not saying that we trade Marvin, but if the right deal came along I'd definately do it.

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I would trade anyone for the right deal.

I think probably 90% of the people on this board would take Paul or Deron if they had the chance to make the pick for the Hawks over again, myself included.

[jerrywest]

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MW will eventually learn how to play "streetball", just like Josh and Josh did. He may even blow it out for the next game or two, shutting everyone up, but he probably will not shake off the Woody blues completely the rest of this season.

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Yes. Woody's system works. BK always knew Woody well. That is the reason he has assembled all these streetball players. Woody's system doesn't require any offensive game plan. Who needs point guard or center. It took a few years for Josh-square to figure that out. Halleluiah!

[PlayaPat420]

if by "streetball" you all mean, lower talent then cool but only j smoove has a game even resembling street ball. quit trying to criticize other outlets of basketball just because this team is poorly constructed. chillz/marv/zaza/jj are not streetballers

[exodus]

Streetballers can actually handle the basketball well and make open jumpers.

[drzachary]

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if by "streetball" you all mean, lower talent then cool but only j smoove has a game even resembling street ball. quit trying to criticize other outlets of basketball just because this team is poorly constructed. chillz/marv/zaza/jj are not streetballers

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I think he meant that js/jc learned to play in a completely unstructured offense, and marvin will too.

[Hoosier]

Thank you.

[jerrywest]

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if by "streetball" you all mean, lower talent then cool but only j smoove has a game even resembling street ball. quit trying to criticize other outlets of basketball just because this team is poorly constructed. chillz/marv/zaza/jj are not streetballers

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The sarcasm was on Woody's non existent system.

[AtLaS]

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Even today people like Chad Ford will tell you that NBA people STILL think Marvin will be THE best player in that draft...in 4 to 5 years.

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I have a hard time believing Chad would say that, I think he would just eat his words and say he was wrong.

First it was 2 years, then 3, now 4-5? When does it end?

[AtLaS]

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Your memory needs a little clarifying on the mocks piece here. Any mock having us taking Paul or Deron was an exception to the vast majority having us taking Marvin Williams.

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Like I said, this is because everyone KNEW BK was going to take Marvin, by what he said in interviews, after workouts etc. And also from many rumors by columnists. This made most mock makers change their mocks, because they heard that BK wanted Marvin. Find mocks that were about 1-2 months before the draft, I GUARANTEE they will have us taking Paul or Deron.

[AtLaS]

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MW has unlimited talent, and you did not hear it here first.

He is another fallout(see Diaw) of a player that cannot thrive in a non-exsistant offensive system. The only difference is MW has a much better attitude than Boris, and is probably putting undue pressure on himself right now.

MW will eventually learn how to play "streetball", just like Josh and Josh did. He may even blow it out for the next game or two, shutting everyone up, but he probably will not shake off the Woody blues completely the rest of this season.

Just be patient until a real coach comes to Atlanta, then you will see the real Marvin.

---

Your optimism is refreshing, and I hope you're right. However my only problem is that when I looked up the DraftExpress scouting report last night, all of his weaknesses they had listed were PRECISELY what I've been saying about Marvin.

"Not being able to drive or post up, and gets his shot blocked everytime he DOES drive."

[TheNorthCydeRises]

No they didn't Atlas. Most mocks had us taking Marvin or Bogut ( if Milwaukee didn't take Marvin #1 ), not Chris . . and definitely not Deron. Marvin and Bogut were the consensus #1 and #2 in just about every mock draft that year.

Deron was never ahead of Chris an any mocks that I saw during that time. And there were serious questions about whether Paul was big enough to really excel on the pro level. But once Utah tipped their hand about loving Deron, Deron moved ahead of Chris on most boards.

If Paul were 6 - 3, he'd probably been the consensus #1 pick that year. But because Paul is only Speedy Claxton size ( 5 - 11 . . 6 feet ), most "experts" thought that his size would limit the chance of him truly becoming a great player on the next level.

To take Paul in the top 2, people would've have to truly believe that he was the 2nd coming of Isaiah Thomas. And most "scouts and GMs" didn't. They thought that he'd be good, but nothing like this in his first few years in the league. That's why Deron went before Paul. And that's why the Hawks didn't take Paul.

In hindsight, they were probably mistaken, with Paul being even better than most people expected out of the gate. But the NBA love taking guys with "potential". And when you look at comparing Chris and Ray Felton, some people even thoguht Felton would be better on the next level.

You know who Chris Paul was essentially? He was Vince Young. A guy who people knew had the talent, but still questioned everything about him, for whatever reason. But experts also thought Vince was, at the very least, a 2 - 3 year project type player for the Titans, much like Steve McNair was. Vince won the ROY when he got a chance to take over the QB spot, but you can't blame a team for taking Reggie Bush ahead of him.

But on the flip side of that, Marvin Williams may very well be the Mario Williams of that draft. He's a player who was taken a few spots higher than what he should've been, and isn't seen as the impact player that Bush or Young would've been for a team coming right out the gate. Marvin was always seen as that 2 - 3 year "project" player that need development, before he blossomed into a potential star. But like the Texans, the Hawks probably passed on a player that could help them immeadiately, instead of a guy who could be the better player in the long run.

Like Marvin with Chris and Deron, people love to compare Mario with Reggie and Vince. Fact is, that's unfair to Mario and Marvin, just because they were picked ahead of those guys.

What Reggie and Vince do, has nothing to do with how Mario develops as a player. Sure, the Texans may regret in the short term for taking Mario. But the kid, in the long term, may turn into a very good player for them. But he also may not be the superstar players that Vince and Reggie may become. That's how I look at Marvin for us right now.

Of course most Hawk fans would prefer Chris running the point for us right now. Even I would. But that's not Marvin's fault. And most Texans fans would definitely prefer Vince or Reggie, especially when you look at their offense. But that's not on Mario either.

Eventually, Hawk fans are going to have to stop crying over not taking Paul. You play the hand that was dealt to you, and make the best of it. And you're going to have to trust all of those scouts and your GM that Marvin can turn into a good player in this league. Most importantly, you can't change the past. And if you dwell on something like that, it'll literally drive you crazy as a fan.

One more thing. Even if Marvin doesn't reach "superstar" status, I'd settle for him being a good consistent type player for this team. If Marvin, in a year or two, can get his shooting % close to the 45% - 47% range, while averaging 14 - 16 ppg, I'd definitely take that from him. JJ is the star of this team, so it's not imperative that Marvin be that 2nd guy, especially if Smoove or Chill are more ready to be that 2nd guy.

Who in their right mind wouldn't take this from the Hawks?

JJ - 25 ppg . . 4 rebs . . 4 assists . . bonafide star

Smoove - 16 ppg . . 8 rebs . . 4 assits . . 3 blks . . the "do it all guy".

Chill ( 6th man ) - 15 ppg . . 6 rebs . . 3 assists . . over 50% FG

Marvin - 14 ppg . . 5 rebs . . 3 assists . . 46% FG . . a good complimentary player to JJ.

I know that's far from the impact that a #2 pick should have, but if those 4 guys can be the core of this team, the Hawks will definitely be more than OK in the future.

Marvin is signed through 2009. He's not going anywhere anytime soon. The Hawks would be stupid to trade him for a need player with less talent. Once he finds his comfort zone as an offensive player, we'll see how good he can be. Right now, he's just an inconsistent young ballplayer. And Hawk fans have no choice but to live with that, until he breaks out of it.

The questions people need to ask themselves now is these:

What do you think is the ceiling for Marvin as a player?

And if that's your ceiling, does that help or hurt the Hawks?

Don't compare any other players when you ask yourselves these questions. Just focus on Marvin ALONE and ask yourselves these questions.

[AHF]

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Your memory needs a little clarifying on the mocks piece here. Any mock having us taking Paul or Deron was an exception to the vast majority having us taking Marvin Williams.

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Like I said, this is because everyone KNEW BK was going to take Marvin, by what he said in interviews, after workouts etc. And also from many rumors by columnists. This made most mock makers change their mocks, because they heard that BK wanted Marvin. Find mocks that were about 1-2 months before the draft, I GUARANTEE they will have us taking Paul or Deron.

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Note before getting into this that the Milwaukee Bucks have nothing to do with BK's proclamations and were only considering Bogut or Marvin. They had a jersey made up for him a week before the draft with a sign saying "Marvin Williams Welcome to Milwaukee" for his workout. That was because they were waffling up until the draft as to who they would take and it was a two man choice between Bogut and Marvin.

* * * * *

The NBA draft took place on June 28, 2005.

The problem is that most sites no longer have up their earlier mock drafts (for example, inside hoops, draft express and nbadraft.net just update their mocks and so you can't see the past ones, just the final ones listing Marvin in the top two picks).

Here are couple I did find:

SI's Ian Thomsen

May 26, 2005

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writ...ock1/index.html

2. Deron Williams

3. Marvin Williams

4. Chris Paul

Yahoo's first mock draft June 13, 2005

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=dw-m...=yhoo&type=lgns

2. Marvin Williams

3. Chris Paul

4. Deron Williams

AC mock June 12, 2005

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/3...mock_draft.html

1. Marvin Williams

2. Chris Paul

6. Deron Williams

Fanball

June 3, 2005

http://www.fanball.com/ph/article.cfm?id=3987&print=1

1. Marvin Williams

4. Chris Paul

5. Deron Williams

Near the draft - but included because not a mock draft but a list of top prospects from the 2005 draft class:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2005/n...tory?id=2095922

Chad Ford

1. Marvin Williams

2. Chris Paul

5. Deron Williams

Andy Katz

2. Marvin Williams

3. Chris Paul

4. Deron Williams

Fran Fraschilla

2. Chris Paul

3. Deron Williams

4. Marvin Williams

d*ck Vitale

2. Marvin Williams

3. Chris Paul

5. Deron Williams

[AtLaS]

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And there were serious questions about whether Paul was big enough to really excel on the pro level.

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Mainly by Hawks fans who were Bogut jockstrappers.

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But once Utah tipped their hand about loving Deron, Deron moved ahead of Chris on most boards.

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Just like they changed their mocks and put Marvin as our pick. Now I COMPLETELY agree that most had Marvin going #1 or 2, but for OUR pick they thought we would still take Paul considering our need for a pg and our stack of young SFs. But this was until it was obvious BK was going with Marvin unless we made a trade, so everyone changed their mocks and put us taking Marvin.

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When you look at comparing Chris and Ray Felton, some people even thoguht Felton would be better on the next level.

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I was one of those people but I was still a big Paul fan. I wanted to make the #2 for 5 and 13 to Charlotte and get Felton. If we stayed at 2 I wanted Paul.

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You know who Chris Paul was essentially? He was Vince Young. A guy who people knew had the talent, but still questioned everything about him, for whatever reason. But experts also thought Vince was, at the very least, a 2 - 3 year project type player for the Titans, much like Steve McNair was. Vince won the ROY when he got a chance to take over the QB spot, but you can't blame a team for taking Reggie Bush ahead of him.

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This is a horrible comparison. Chris Paul was PROVEN in college (just like VY), he was NOT a potential pick, look at his stats against other good pgs and in the tourney. And I don't blame NO for taking Bush before Young, Bush was one of the greatest collegiate athletes in ANY sport in probably 10 years.

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Like Marvin with Chris and Deron, people love to compare Mario with Reggie and Vince. Fact is, that's unfair to Mario and Marvin, just because they were picked ahead of those guys.

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How is that unfair? He was taken AHEAD of them, which means everyone THOUGHT he was supposed to be that good. And while I agree it's not his fault, it's BK's fault for taking such an unproven player at a position that we already had 3 1st round picks at AND a proven player in Al Harrington. Josh Smith had a great rookie year and Childress played great for the 2nd half of the year, CHILL was a 6th pick! Why waste ANOTHER pick at that position?! RETARTED!

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What Reggie and Vince do, has nothing to do with how Mario develops as a player. Sure, the Texans may regret in the short term for taking Mario.

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Exactly, in the NFL it is SHORT term, because ONE player doesn't make NEAR as much a difference on a football team as it does in basketball. There are 22 starters in football (offense and defense), and 11 people at any given time. In basketball, there are only five players, thus each pick is much more crucial and each player makes a much bigger impact.

Taking Marvin last year is the equivalent to the Colts getting the #2 overall pick and taking someone like Brady Quinn or the guy from LSU, because although they are the consensus top players, there is no NEED to take them there.

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Eventually, Hawk fans are going to have to stop crying over not taking Paul. You play the hand that was dealt to you, and make the best of it. And you're going to have to trust all of those scouts and your GM that Marvin can turn into a good player in this league. Most importantly, you can't change the past. And if you dwell on something like that, it'll literally drive you crazy as a fan.

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It is driving me crazy, because of that ONE move, we could be a legit playoff team right now. And STILL have tons of cap space and players would want to come here or be traded here.

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Even if Marvin doesn't reach "superstar" status, I'd settle for him being a good consistent type player for this team. If Marvin, in a year or two, can get his shooting % close to the 45% - 47% range, while averaging 14 - 16 ppg, I'd definitely take that from him.

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If that happens, then Marvin is damn sure a bust, and it was a WASTED pick. You know why? Because we could give Chill and Smith all of those minutes and just sign a cheap SF to back them up, Chill and Smith will at LEAST be 14-16 ppg in their primes.

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Who in their right mind wouldn't take this from the Hawks?

JJ - 25 ppg . . 4 rebs . . 4 assists . . bonafide star

Smoove - 16 ppg . . 8 rebs . . 4 assits . . 3 blks . . the "do it all guy".

Chill ( 6th man ) - 15 ppg . . 6 rebs . . 3 assists . . over 50% FG

Marvin - 14 ppg . . 5 rebs . . 3 assists . . 46% FG . . a good complimentary player to JJ.

I know that's far from the impact that a #2 pick should have, but if those 4 guys can be the core of this team, the Hawks will definitely be more than OK in the future.

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Who's our Center? We still need a pg, we can't play all of those players those minutes together. I'd much rather be getting 20 and 10 from Paul in the future.

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Right now, he's just an inconsistent young ballplayer.

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No he is very consistent, consistently BAD. Even when he scores 20+, he plays the EXACT same way. He makes JUMPSHOTS, or drives and gets bailed out by a foul call after getting his shot blocked. Like I said he better start watching some Ray Allen tape because becoming a good shooter is his only chance.

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What do you think is the ceiling for Marvin as a player?

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I'm gonna go with Diesel here and say Tim Thomas or Jim Jackson.

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And if that's your ceiling, does that help or hurt the Hawks?

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It would help, but for the price that we paid, it hurts.

[AtLaS]

well 50% of those had Paul or Deron. However, I remember at one time, NBAdraft.net, espn and DraftCity(now draftexpress) all had us taking Paul.

[AHF]

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well 50% of those had Paul or Deron. However, I remember at one time, NBAdraft.net, espn and DraftCity(now draftexpress) all had us taking Paul.

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That is only because 25% of those have Marvin going #1 overall. 75% have Marvin going to Milwaukee or Atlanta and before any of the point guards.

Considering I can't pull up any of those cites' old mocks, we will just have to agree to disagree as to whether they had Marvin going to Atlanta before it was close to the draft. From my memory, a lot of the very earliest mocks had Paul going #2 to Atlanta and then they immediately switched still well over a month in advance to advocating Marvin at #2. Of course, many of those also had Gerald Green at #3 before Paul and Deron as well before Portland traded the pick.

[Lascar78]

Even the mocks that had us taking a PG typically acknowledged that Bogut-Marvin were the two potential stars, but that given our SFs and our lack of PG we should pass on potential and draft for need.

EVERYONE had Bogut-Marvin as the top 2 out of that draft. Everyone.

[drzachary]

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Even the mocks that had us taking a PG typically acknowledged that Bogut-Marvin were the two potential stars, but that given our SFs and our lack of PG we should pass on potential and draft for need.

EVERYONE had Bogut-Marvin as the top 2 out of that draft. Everyone.

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Except d*ck Vitale!

However, if you start lauding Vitale's skills as an analyst.......

[Packfill]

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Even the mocks that had us taking a PG typically acknowledged that Bogut-Marvin were the two potential stars, but that given our SFs and our lack of PG we should pass on potential and draft for need.

EVERYONE had Bogut-Marvin as the top 2 out of that draft. Everyone.

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I bet alot of people had Bowie going top 2 as well.

Bottom line is that BK and the Hawks will live or die with that pick.

Going back to the 2005 off-season the Hawks had two primary needs - starting caliber center and starting caliber point guard. Fast forward to 2007 and the Hawks still have those same needs despite having two high lottery picks in the interim and a coveted trade asset in Al Harrington.

I want Marvin to succeed but for now he is the poster boy for Billy Knight's failures as a GM.

I know, it is not fair to Marvin, and I hate to say "I told you so", but this is what you get you have a team that has won about 50 games in two and a half years.

[Guest Walter]

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Even the mocks that had us taking a PG typically acknowledged that Bogut-Marvin were the two potential stars, but that given our SFs and our lack of PG we should pass on potential and draft for need.

EVERYONE had Bogut-Marvin as the top 2 out of that draft. Everyone.

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You're as bad as KB. Frankly, BK has made huge draft mistakes when a player was a cut and paste UNC-hyped media darling (MW) and when one wasn't even otherwise thought top 10 (SW). The MW's pick may somehow be defensible if you didn't watch MW play enough (which most in the media didn't) or didn't have our team needs and positions filled, but BK should have and we did! If you watched MW and neither of you (Lascar and DrZ) have stated quite how many games you watched, particularly during the ACC season you saw very little that indicated him being a great prospect or frankly what all seperated him from Jawad Williams.

BK isn't supposed to draft based upon what Jay Bilas or Peter Vescey say. They didn't even know who Marvin was the year before (a player that pulled out because he simply wasnt' that good of a prospect) and watched him maybe a few games (in Vescey's case maybe none) during the year against 2nd teamers and in garbage minutes and these guys are complete hacks!!! BK f*cked it up! How hard is that for you people to understand much less NOT apologize for him.

Making a double chin, "well he was the 'consensus' media-darling". When was this ever a reasonable defense of an NBA GENERAL MANAGER and when was it not tiresome. "Well he was the media consensus" is a defense of fan opinion AT BEST and frankly that's what it sounds like now. It sounds like individuals who don't want to accept that their OWN opinion about MW was a mistake continue to cling to the "media-darling" excuse. "How could we have known he wan't that good with all the press about (how out of shape he was during tryouts - remember that) him?" It never was a defense of BK. It was only a defense for Joe-fans out there caught up in the UNC-hype who don't want to admit their own hype-driven failings as Jr. GMs.

I'm not saying the MW doesn't have some potential (although one of my knocks on him is I doubted his desire and ability to reach it...anyone remember the "I don't really like basketball that much" comments from him (or something to that effect). Never have. But the pick was INDEFENSIBLE had one watched enough of MWs and/or had one remotely considered team needs.

W