pro-tankers: YOU HAVE NO PLAN

[drzachary]

... to maintain the healthy aggression we saw in last night's win over GSW. Did you see Chill's expression after slamming it home in garbage time late in a blowout win? You don't see that if he knows he has been set up to lose.

... to promote a winning psychology in our young core. (and if you don't think psychology is important, and NONE OF YOU have addressed it yet, just ask Phil Jackson!)

... to maintain the trust between players, coach and management that they won't be held back. To paraphase Lascar, you cannot TELL your players to tank, and the only way to efficiently tank would be to tell them, or cripple them with lowered playing time.

... to attract free agents to a team that is willing to throw its players under the bus and expect nothing of them except failure. This includes a PG. We need a PG as much as we need a center, in my opinion, especially if we want to use our athleticism in a full-court set. A top 3 pick does not help solve the PG dearth at all.

To sum up, YOU HAVE NO PLAN.

[AtLaS]

They have no argument other than one simple word "hope", or should I say "pipe-dream"

[drzachary]

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They have no argument other than one simple word "hope", or should I say "pipe-dream"

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No, I don't think that's fair. They have great arguments for picking up a franchise center. Tanking is the best way to do that (or, more accurately, winning a good pick is the best way to do that... tanking gives you the best chances of that).

However, they DO NOT HAVE A PLAN for the things I've mentioned. I DO NOT HAVE A PLAN for picking up a franchise C. The difference is which need you think is better: team cohesion/psychology, or a potential franchise center.

[AtLaS]

To put our entire franchise on the line, including risking losing all of our players for AT BEST a 25% shot at Oden, I'd say it's a pipe dream.

However I do agree with what you are saying..

[exodus]

Last night Philly and Charlotte both won. Memphis lost a 1 pt game to Dallas. Boston is supposed to get Pierce back soon.

I don't think anyone is tanking right now.

[txsting]

That post is money, Dr Z!!!

I agree, PG is key, even more so than C. A lot of teams in this league can get by with average play in the middle. Oden is NOT a requirement, just one very unlikely way to get better. Call Oden what he is - a SHORTCUT. Everyone wants the easy way out of this mess. Look at the best team in the league - Mavs, IMO. Of course nobody else has a Dirk, but they get by with a couple of defensive minded goons in the middle. And they have super solid backcourt team play with JT of all people, plus Devin, Devean, and Howard. Balanced attack, TEAM defense, high athleticism, length, a feature scorer, a do-everything guy, etc. Starting to sound like what we're trying to do here? We have a few of these pieces, we now need the defense and some reliable complementary scorers for this balanced attack. Defense is 90% coaching (see Avery Johnson vs. Nellie, same players). A good all around PG (like Billups) might take us to the next level. Lue is all offense, Speedy all defense.

I don't think it's a coincidence that we win more with Lue in the lineup. We need his extra scoring punch with the absence of a true second option. But can you imagine this team with Billups?? Only way to have any shot at Billups is to win, baby. Hope the Hawks can keep it going.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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... to maintain the healthy aggression we saw in last night's win over GSW. Did you see Chill's expression after slamming it home in garbage time late in a blowout win? You don't see that if he knows he has been set up to lose.

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You see it ten-fold next year when he's been "set up" to not only win a meaningless game but rather contend for a championship having a legit post presence if not a all-out dominate, game changing one.

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... to promote a winning psychology in our young core...

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...you have to have the talent at positions to actual win something of importance. Otherwise you promote a psychology of AT BEST mediocrity.

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...to maintain the trust between players, coach and management that they won't be held back.

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Why do you care about the interpersonal relationship between Woody and the players? Doesn't most everyone hope Woody is fired? Why are you defending a relationship involving a coach you don't want? Same with BK! There is no better group of guys at the helm (BK and Woody) with which to lose so we can effectively say good riddance to them.

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To paraphase Lascar, you cannot TELL your players to tank, and the only way to efficiently tank would be to tell them, or cripple them with lowered playing time.

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What you tear down you INSTANTLY build back up again and within a training camp exceed with a franchise player.

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...to attract free agents to a team that is willing to throw its players under the bus and expect nothing of them except failure.

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WTF?!?

1st) What impact FAs do you think are coming here anyhow? It's chaos here and they can't be signed for longer than 4 years! NO impact FA is taking a 4 year deal!

2nd) When did we get new ownership?

3rd) Can you think of a FA that wouldn't have wanted to play next to Shaq in his prime or Garnett in his? That is what Oden and Durant both represent. Players want to play with this level superstar more than anything, particularly a superstar big. That makes every player's life infinitely more easy. You can't put a price on the FA draw that a franchise center would have.

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This includes a PG. We need a PG as much as we need a center, in my opinion, especially if we want to use our athleticism in a full-court set. A top 3 pick does not help solve the PG dearth at all.

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Uh, because tanking likely resolves one major issue (the more difficult to resolve) and your LACK OF A PLAN resolves none, you think that is an argument against tanking?!?!? Pg can be addressed, though not likely resolved with the Indy pick. Center couldn't even begin to be addressed there.

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[mrhonline]

I've tried to stay out of this silly debate because it's ludicrous to talk about tanking when it's obvious the core of the team, the coach, and the management have ZERO interest in it. I don't care how elaborate a rationale you give in support of tanking, you're wasting your breath.

Not a single person in the Hawks' organization is going to support tanking at this point in the season:

1. The core players of this team are on their rookie contracts. They have EVERY incentive to improve and win.

2. The placement of next year's draft pick has ZERO bearing on whether Woodson keeps his job. His job is to win with the players on the court, and if he ever hopes to coach elsewhere, he must show improvement NOW.

3. The GM risked his job on this team, sacrificing a good pick in a deep draft to prove his confidence in them. Tanking WILL NOT save him his job.

4. The ownership ARE NOT going to fire Woodson or Knight in the middle of the season.

If anything, the rational thinker would expect the Hawks to be BUYERS at the trading deadline, depending, of course, on how much flexibility Knight has been given to take on contracts and how the team plays between now and the deadline.

While I'm skeptical of Levinson's claims that Knight is not restricted, I think the next few weeks will determine the team's aggressiveness at the deadline. If the team continues to win, I could see the AS okaying a trade.

[Guest Walter]

No player would prefer it (while it happened) and no coach or GM with a reputation vested in their team's performance would acknowledge the need to tank. It's all up to ownership. Very difficult for ownership to do so when it's many talking heads. Would prefer a single, strong-minded owner in this instance.

W

[drzachary]

So... where are the plans?

I want to be able to accomplish these psychological goals WHILE tanking. What's the plan?

[TroyMcClure]

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... to promote a winning psychology in our young core. (and if you don't think psychology is important, and NONE OF YOU have addressed it yet, just ask Phil Jackson!)

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I address it all the time. That's pretty much all I care about. I'm not a big "Darius Miles" talent kind of guy. No one wants to hear it but the situation is hopeless. Have you forgotten the last three years? And eight overall? We are not "on the right track".

How many times do we need to repeat all of the incompetent things that the ASG, BK, and Woody have done? I'm serious. This will not change. Their kind of stupidity keeps us all in a haze of confusion. They always blame something.

I'm not saying we should "tank" either. What I'm saying is I recognized, along with many others, that we lost so many games due to coaching early in the year that the season was over a month ago.

Personally, I knew the season was over when Woody blew the game against Milwaukee. I was there. I know we got jobbed on the Redd call but we should have won that game going away.

We are not old enough for Woody to just stand there. He lost the season with his coaching and poor comunication with BK. BK allowed this. The ASG allowed that. Enough said.

Do the math and think. Woody will not be a better coach overnight. We will not catch Miami and New Jersey. Indiana will not fall. Orlando might. We will not make the playoffs.

If we are close to the playoffs will you be happy? Not me. This team has underachieved for 8 years.

Why did we waste a year of Smoove and Marvin? We let Al control the sinking ship. Why? He sucks. Did they actually think we were on the right track with Al? Sadly, Yes.

So, my plan is this: Have some GD pride and admit you were wrong and move on. Fire BK, fire Woody and bring in a hungry gym rat. If they're basketball knowledge is so limited that they can't see what has been happening, F them.

If they don't have enough money to operate then they have offended every Hawks fan. I question their fandom. They know a richer owner would be better for the team. They are just selfish businessmen. They want to be "sports owners" for their ego's sake.

P.S. This winning month in no way impresses me.

[Guest Walter]

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So... where are the plans?

I want to be able to accomplish these psychological goals WHILE tanking. What's the plan?

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But you would exceed these psychological goals with a successful tank. Oden or Durant do more for this franchise's psyche than any 30 win season and an MLE player ever could.

W

[vdunkndunk]

My plan is to be a pro-tanker after we lose, and pro-playoff after we win.

The reality is, however, that this team won't lose well enough to keep the pick and it won't win well enough to make the playoffs.

If BK had gotten top 7 protection on the pick, then maybe I would be fully enthused about tanking.

But right now we're stuck in no-man's land and we're going to give the Suns a very nice pick, so we might as well just get used to it, bceause we're not making the playoffs, either.

[Diesel]

We would be fools to tank this year for the hope of getting Oden (because he is the only Center that is game-changing).. and he doesn't come out.

As Dr. Z said and as I have said several times, regardless of how you do it, the effect of tanking will be the same... It will ruin this franchise... PERIOD. I would say that there's no area of this franchise that won't be depressed by tanking.

And you Walter propose tanking without knowing if the prize will even be in the draft.

How STUPID is that?

[mrhonline]

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If we are close to the playoffs will you be happy?

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Yes!!!!!! And it's exactly the fact that this team has underachieved for so long that would make that achievement worthwhile to me. This team is the YOUNGEST team in the NBA, has a "rookie" coach, and has been ravaged by injuries all season long.

35 wins would be enough progress for me. They're learning how to win, and that doesn't happen overnight.

[drzachary]

Good points, all. I will disagree with some of the details, though (like I think we CAN catch NJ, for example.) Also, I am impressed with the improvement over the last 2 years, and the winning month.

The problem is that we can't fire the ASG! If we are going to fire BK but keep the ASG, the problem (as you see it) is still there. Firing BK may be a good move long-term, but would require.. ta-da... tanking the season by *getting rid of all of BK's "mistakes"* and rebuilding from scratch, again.

[Diesel]

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Oden or Durant do more for this franchise's psyche than any 30 win season and an MLE player ever could.

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There's only a 25% chance of getting #1 with the worst record... ONLY 25%.

Here's the kicker. ODEN might not come out.

In other words... It's more likely that we get 3rd in the draft and miss out on Odom and Durant...

THEN WHAT Walter..

If Oden stays in college 1 more year and we get 3rd, do you know that we have just possibly handed Phoenix Oden... at the same time we have put our franchise in Ruins?

If you thought Vancouver Messed up... we would be the biggest flop in the world.

Somehow, I believe that's what you really want.

[TroyMcClure]

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It will ruin this franchise... PERIOD.

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Sorry, I was at the draft part when we got J.T. and Dion. I think that is where the first brick was thrown through the window.

If this is not "ruined", what is?

[Guest Walter]

on if we don't keep our pick whether we sign anyone starting over $8 million per?

In short, I'll put my money behind Oden coming out if you'll put your money behind our getting a legitimate impact FA?

$20.

Deal.

If Oden comes out, you owe me $20. Doesn't, I owe you $20. If we sign an impact FA starting at just below the maximum ($8 million) or greater you get $20. If not, I get $20.

Mind you, my plan could have us draft Durant or trade the pick. Your "plan" has no plan B. So, put your money where you say the odds are Diesel.

W

[Guest Walter]