So what is Smoove's best position?

[Packfill]

Quote:

---

I don't think anyone was calling Marvin a 3 pt shooter. He doesn't quite have that range yet. The relevant stat here would be effective FG% on jumpers only

Marvin: .408

Smith: .315

Chill: .380

For comparison, JJ: .498

---

Lascar - what site do you get stats like these from? I think it is pretty cool that these types of things are available.

[pimp]

try this site

www.82games.com

[Diesel]

"I'm the best paper stacker that you will ever find. You need to hire me. I know other guys can make spreadsheets and give presentations and administrate and organize, but nobody stacks paper better than I do...."

That's what your Jump Shooting stats equates to me. For us to have Marvin on the floor for 34 mpg, he has to be doing something more than waiting for the PG to set him up so that he can hit an open Jumper. Looking deep into the stats (like you did) Marvin will always be a jump shooter because when he goes inside (26% of the time) he gets his shot blocked (24% of the time)... Who in the hell get their shots blocked 24% of the time?

No, you can keep the paper stacker, give me the guy who can do the whole job well. Even if he's only slightly above average at stacking papers.

In other words, we don't need a jump shooter so much.

[Lascar78]

You said that he wasn't that great at shooting, I'm pointing out that he is a much better shooter than Smith for instance (30% better on jumpers - BIG difference). I don't think anyone is arguing that Marvin is as good as Smith all around right now, but he is clearly a much better shooter and certainly does a lot more than just shoot. He has started taking it inside recently and looked great. I don't know why everything has to be black and white, good or bad.

This month Smith is averaging 21/10/3/1 and Marvin has gotten 17/6/2/1. Yes Smith is ahead at this point, but it's not like they are leagues apart in every other area. 6 rebounds per game may not be monstrous, but it's not bad at the SF. There are 39 players in the whole league averaging 6 rpg on the season.

[Lascar78]

That 24% doesn't take into account the free throws he gets. When he's driven, he's mostly looked for layups. When he gets the FTs, it doesn't count as a FGA. If you factor that in the 24% would go way down. When you go for contact, getting it blocked 1 in 4 times when you don't get the call isn't horrible. It's bad, but not as bad as it sounds. He'll improve.

[thesheedera]

Quote:

---

In other words, we don't need a jump shooter so much.

---

Your argument is based on the assumption that a jump shooter is all Marvin is and all he will ever be. The posters arguing with you strongly believe that this current "jump shooter" is just the beginning of who Marvin will be. Unfortunately we don't have a time machine to find out which group will be right.

You make it sound like shooting mid rage jumpers is some kind fo knock on someone's game. Frankly it's not a tool that every 6'9" player has in this league, so it stretches the defense. Either the jumpshooter gets an open look or he will draw away a post defender from the middle of the floor. As Marvin continues to develop his game, having a strong foundation as a confident jumpshooter will be very important to the effectiveness of the other aspects of the game. If no one respects his jumper, he won't be able to drive or find open teammates nearly as well.

It's certainly not enough to point to and say "look, Marvin was worth the #2 pick", but it IS a valuable asset for Marvin and the team as a whole. Very few posters are coming here and saying Marvin was the right pick. The fact that he was the wrong pick doesn't diminish the good things he can and will do.

I'm mildly disappointed with certain aspects of Marvin's development, but I think it's sort of ridiculous to criticize him for honing a specific and important and FUNDAMENTAL part of the game. We always cry about the lack of fundamentals in the game now, well here's a guy that's seems to be starting his career focusing on a developing a very specific and important part of his game. I wish he were more of a driver and slasher, but I'm definitely not upset seeing what he can do when that shot's falling.

Last year Marvin was a deer in headlights, panick mode on the NBA floor. This year he looks confident, especially in his jumper. Next year I'm hoping the "assertive" part follows.

[Diesel]

Overall, he's not a good shooter. The original poster said " well he's a good perimeter shooter"... IN my world that means that he can shoot from 3. He's shooting 24% from three. That's hi-dam-larious. If you say he's a good midrange jumpshooter.. OK. We can agree there, but do I waste a second round pick on a guy who is just a good midrange Jumpshooter in his second year playing 34 mpg??

How much do we need a good midrange jumpshooter?

Well as you pointed out, JJ hits damn near 50% of his midrange shots. In fact, as a team, we're hitting like 51% from up close. I looked it up... There aren't a whole lot of teams that is worse than us at shooting up close. I think Memphis is right there with us. I think being able to hit up close shots is more important to our offense than jump shooting from midrange.

[Lascar78]

Perimeter doesn't mean 3 pt line. Marvin shoots most of his jumpers from deep, just inside the 3 pt line. That is not midrange, it's perimeter. Marvin's range has been expanding but is still inside the 3 pt line. It will get there as he gets stronger. There's a reason he only took 45 3s all year.

Anyone with a good eye knows his jumper is picture perfect and it's only a matter of time (and confidence) before his jumper becomes automatic.

JJ was shooting 39% in his second year, and was older. Marvin is shooting 43%.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

There are 39 players in the whole league averaging 6 rpg on the season.

---

Hmm.. since when does 5.3 round up to 6?

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

There are 39 players in the whole league averaging 6 rpg on the season.

---

Hmm.. since when does 5.3 round up to 6?

---

He was talking about what Marvin has been averaging over the second part of the season and comparing that second half performance to the league averages.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

There are 39 players in the whole league averaging 6 rpg on the season.

---

Hmm.. since when does 5.3 round up to 6?

---

He was talking about what Marvin has been averaging over the second part of the season and comparing that second half performance to the league averages.

---

Actually he was talking about THIS month, which is only 9 games. How is 9 games a significant sample size to judge? There are 65 games that suggest he's only a 5.3 rebounder.

And it's still not a good argument, because there are WAY more than 39 players who would average 6 rebounds if given 34 mpg, SFs included. I guarantee Marvin has a low per40 rebounding rate.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

There are 39 players in the whole league averaging 6 rpg on the season.

---

Hmm.. since when does 5.3 round up to 6?

---

He was talking about what Marvin has been averaging over the second part of the season and comparing that second half performance to the league averages.

---

Actually he was talking about THIS month, which is only 9 games. How is 9 games a significant sample size to judge? There are 65 games that suggest he's only a 5.3 rebounder.

And it's still not a good argument, because there are WAY more than 39 players who would average 6 rebounds if given 34 mpg, SFs included. I guarantee Marvin has a low per40 rebounding rate.

---

That is the way to tackle the statement. I haven't looked at the actual per40 rebounding rates but will do so and then post that in a second.

If Josh Smith is viewed as a small forward, he has the top rebound rate for the position of everyone in the league according to John Hollinger.

Marvin Williams is 28th in the league - 26 and 27 are Lebron James and Paul Pierce and 29 and 30 are Mickael Pietrus and Vince Carter.

I think he should do better but that isn't terrible company to keep in terms of boarding at the SF position.

[Popeye]

It's funny how all Marvin haters will find anything in your post to make you wrong, even if it's smallest thing of all.

[AtLaS]

Obviously you haven't read this whole thread..

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

There are 39 players in the whole league averaging 6 rpg on the season.

---

Hmm.. since when does 5.3 round up to 6?

---

Did you read the post? You said he contributes nothing but shooting. I was showing that this month his rebounding alone is at a top 40 level in the whole league, which is not bad at all for a SF.

Quote:

---

This month

Smith is averaging 21/10/3/1 and

Marvin has gotten 17/6/2/1.

Yes Smith is ahead at this point, but it's not like they are leagues apart in every other area.

6 rebounds per game may not be monstrous, but it's not bad at the SF. There are 39 players in the whole league averaging 6 rpg on the season.

---

[Lascar78]

The reason it's relevant is because he had the glove on for a while and was obviously playing while recovering from injury, and we're now seeing what he can give us while healthy. I didn't say he was top 40 in the league. I'm saying you can't say he contributes nothing but shooting when he CURRENTLY is rebounding at a top 40 level league wide.

[thesheedera]

Quote:

---

If Josh Smith is viewed as a small forward, he has the top rebound rate for the position of everyone in the league according to John Hollinger.

Marvin Williams is 28th in the league - 26 and 27 are Lebron James and Paul Pierce and 29 and 30 are Mickael Pietrus and Vince Carter.

I think he should do better but that isn't terrible company to keep in terms of boarding at the SF position.

---

Just so I understand clearly, the rankings you mention apply to Hollinger's rebound rate among all small forwards, right?

Are there a lot of guys from 2-25 who either don't play a lot of minutes, or who don't score very much?

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If Josh Smith is viewed as a small forward, he has the top rebound rate for the position of everyone in the league according to John Hollinger.

Marvin Williams is 28th in the league - 26 and 27 are Lebron James and Paul Pierce and 29 and 30 are Mickael Pietrus and Vince Carter.

I think he should do better but that isn't terrible company to keep in terms of boarding at the SF position.

---

Just so I understand clearly, the rankings you mention apply to Hollinger's rebound rate among all small forwards, right?

Are there a lot of guys from 2-25 who either don't play a lot of minutes, or who don't score very much?

---

Correct on both accounts. (For example, some of those higher than Marvin are Linton Johnson, Trevor Ariza, Adreian Griffin, Linas Kleiza, etc.)

[thesheedera]

Thanks for the clarification.

Good company indeed.

I think there's a difference between a perimeter SF and a post SF. SFs like LeBron might as well be SGs, and that's the way Marvin has been playing, or that's the way he's being played. Not sure which.

Smith, whether you want to call him a SF or a PF, is a guy who spends more time in the post, where he wreaks havoc with rebounding and blocking shots.

The cool thing in my mind is that these two guys genuinely seem to like playing together (is there better evidence than their body language and enthusiasm in the final (meaningless) game of the regular season?) and seem to have no problem at all coexisting. There's not even an indication of tension with Childress, the guy relegated to "bench" status.

That was one of the huge "challenges" we thought this team would face this season, and it never really materialized. You can argue that we'd be better served with just one of them being our SF, and the others being traded for players at areas of need, but it would be for reasons related to their attitudes towards one another or their ability to coexist.

[PlayaPat420]

yes that IS HILARIOUS. If you honestly think Smoove or Chillz are as good a shooter as Marvin. Point. Blank. Period.