SI: Stats Are the Reason Bonds Is So Hated

AHF · January 20, 2008

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writ...tats/index.html

This echoes some of my feelings on why Bonds arouses so much more hatred in most fans than cheaters like Palmeiro or Caminiti.

DJlaysitup · January 20, 2008

Bonds was the best cheater because he was the best player before he started cheating (IMO)...at least as a hitter. There is a whole bunch more to the steroids scandal than Bonds - he's just the front man because when you put a Ferrari on steroids - look out!

Lotsa other players used steroids to be better and hit more home runs. A lot of previous "warning track" hits became HRs. It lengthened the careers (and paycheck cashing) of many players. It also kept a bunch of aspiring/talented young players in AAA when they should have been in the big leagues. That's the shame of it in my opinion.

AHF · January 20, 2008

I think that the special hatred is reserved for Bonds because of what he spoiled. The most revered record in baseball was the career record mark. Now that is ruined until someone who is clean breaks the mark Bonds set (something that is far from sure to happen in the next decade or two barring A-Rod continuing his march and also not being unmasked as an abuser of PEDs).

I know I resent Bonds not just for being a cheater but even more for taking away the rightful title from Hank Aaron.

Diesel · January 21, 2008

Quote:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writ...tats/index.html

This echoes some of my feelings on why Bonds arouses so much more hatred in most fans than cheaters like Palmeiro or Caminiti.

That's BS.

Cheating is cheating.

AHF · January 21, 2008

Quote:

Quote:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writ...tats/index.html

This echoes some of my feelings on why Bonds arouses so much more hatred in most fans than cheaters like Palmeiro or Caminiti. </blockquote>

That's BS.

Cheating is cheating.

[/indent]

Killing is killing but someone killing a four year old innocent child in brutal fashion shocks the conscience more than killing an forty year old abusive drunk.

Taking out Aaron's record degrades the game in a way that Derrick Turnbow's cheating as a run of the mill middle reliever does not. At least that is the way that I feel.

Bonds doesn't get points for being warm and fuzzy and I have no respect for Caminiti and others but Bonds wouldn't tick me off so much if he hadn't stolen something very valuable to a very classy Brave and MLB history.

[Note that this is not an argument for saying that Turnbow did anything less wrong or deserves less of a punishment for his use of PEDs. This is just about my reaction to what Bonds did as a fan.]

Diesel · January 21, 2008

Quote:

Quote:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writ...tats/index.html

This echoes some of my feelings on why Bonds arouses so much more hatred in most fans than cheaters like Palmeiro or Caminiti. </blockquote>

That's BS.

Cheating is cheating.

<hr />

In Bonds case...

He's been hung in the jury of public opinion moreso than he has in the laboratory testing.

Conseco says he believes that up to 80% of baseball was juicing when he played. With no failed tests, the public wants to hang Barry Bonds and put an asterisk next to his name when their are other baseball stars who have failed drug tests whoose names are not so tarnished.

I'm sorry, but to say it's because of Record is BS. Barry Bonds was the most hated man in baseball well before he recently broke Hank Aaron's record. Him breaking Aaron's record didn't add new haters to the list. It just made those same old haters hate him more.

Moreover, baseball and the fans celebrated McGwire and Sosa when they were "saving" baseball. It's funny how now it's known that they juiced and yet and still Barry Bonds is more hated than these two...

Even the Rocket gets a pass.

Killing is killing but someone killing a four year old innocent child in brutal fashion shocks the conscience more than killing an forty year old abusive drunk.

Taking out Aaron's record degrades the game in a way that Derrick Turnbow's cheating as a run of the mill middle reliever does not. At least that is the way that I feel.

Bonds doesn't get points for being warm and fuzzy and I have no respect for Caminiti and others but Bonds wouldn't tick me off so much if he hadn't stolen something very valuable to a very classy Brave and MLB history.

[Note that this is not an argument for saying that Turnbow did anything less wrong or deserves less of a punishment for his use of PEDs. This is just about my reaction to what Bonds did as a fan.]

AHF · January 21, 2008

Quote:

In Bonds case...

He's been hung in the jury of public opinion moreso than he has in the laboratory testing.

Conseco says he believes that up to 80% of baseball was juicing when he played. With no failed tests, the public wants to hang Barry Bonds and put an asterisk next to his name when their are other baseball stars who have failed drug tests whoose names are not so tarnished.

I'm sorry, but to say it's because of Record is BS. Barry Bonds was the most hated man in baseball well before he recently broke Hank Aaron's record. Him breaking Aaron's record didn't add new haters to the list. It just made those same old haters hate him more.

Moreover, baseball and the fans celebrated McGwire and Sosa when they were "saving" baseball. It's funny how now it's known that they juiced and yet and still Barry Bonds is more hated than these two...

Even the Rocket gets a pass.

The Rocket is getting killed in the press so I am not sure where you are getting this one. I have read literally dozens of articles about his ruined legacy and how he has done nothing to restore his image with his "counterattack."

Bonds is hated more than Sosa and McGwire and you are right that a big part of that for the general public is all the goodwill that McGwire and Sosa generated with their personalities and the bad will that Bonds generated with his. For me, I would rate either of them above Bonds on my list of public enemies if they broke Aaron's record and Bonds didn't.

That is the reality for me. I don't like any of the cheaters and wouldn't let any of them in the HOF. But a special place is reserved for Bonds because of the lasting damage he did to the game. Sosa and McGwire will be poster children for this corrupt era but will just be historical footnotes. Bonds will remain front and center until his records are broken and that may never happen if baseball comes up with an effective means of testing in the future.

(And if the career HR record is broken by another cheater, that person will occupy a special place in *#&$ for me.)

Diesel · January 21, 2008

Quote:

In Bonds case...

He's been hung in the jury of public opinion moreso than he has in the laboratory testing.

Conseco says he believes that up to 80% of baseball was juicing when he played. With no failed tests, the public wants to hang Barry Bonds and put an asterisk next to his name when their are other baseball stars who have failed drug tests whoose names are not so tarnished.

I'm sorry, but to say it's because of Record is BS. Barry Bonds was the most hated man in baseball well before he recently broke Hank Aaron's record. Him breaking Aaron's record didn't add new haters to the list. It just made those same old haters hate him more.

Moreover, baseball and the fans celebrated McGwire and Sosa when they were "saving" baseball. It's funny how now it's known that they juiced and yet and still Barry Bonds is more hated than these two...

Even the Rocket gets a pass.

<hr />

The Rocket is getting killed in the press so I am not sure where you are getting this one. I have read literally dozens of articles about his ruined legacy and how he has done nothing to restore his image with his "counterattack."

Bonds is hated more than Sosa and McGwire and you are right that a big part of that for the general public is all the goodwill that McGwire and Sosa generated with their personalities and the bad will that Bonds generated with his. For me, I would rate either of them above Bonds on my list of public enemies if they broke Aaron's record and Bonds didn't.

That is the reality for me. I don't like any of the cheaters and wouldn't let any of them in the HOF. But a special place is reserved for Bonds because of the lasting damage he did to the game. Sosa and McGwire will be poster children for this corrupt era but will just be historical footnotes. Bonds will remain front and center until his records are broken and that may never happen if baseball comes up with an effective means of testing in the future.

(And if the career HR record is broken by another cheater, that person will occupy a special place in *#&$ for me.)

Nobody really cared about Aaron's record until Bonds broke it. Hell, there were many who said that Aaron only got the record because he played so long. However, I have heard about Marist for years.... with more importance than Aaron. Aaron was just the guy who broke the Babe's record... and that's basically how it was said... Whereas 61 was legendary.

The chase for 61 was met with far more hoopla than the chase for 744.

AHF · January 21, 2008

Quote:

Nobody really cared about Aaron's record until Bonds broke it. Hell, there were many who said that Aaron only got the record because he played so long. However, I have heard about Marist for years.... with more importance than Aaron.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think we heard more about Maris because his record was more attainable. Anytime anyone had a hot start to a year with HRs the question was raised whether he could make a run at Maris. Aaron's record was not in reach for any of these guys and there wasn't a reason to discuss McGwire's chance at passing Aaron when it wasn't remotely realistic during any point in his career.

Quote:

Aaron was just the guy who broke the Babe's record... and that's basically how it was said... Whereas 61 was legendary.

The chase for 61 was met with far more hoopla than the chase for 744.

I think that had a lot to deal with:

(A) Two attractive stars making an exciting run without a hint in the press or national conversation about their run being tainted; and

(B) An admitted steroid user who nobody liked even before the drug issues making a run during a time when the main conversation in baseball was about the tainted drug culture and the problems it was bringing to the game.

McGwire and Sosa were first frauds to be exposed and they enjoyed a lot of positive press and attention before their fraud was revealed ala Milli Vanilli. Nobody is going to receive the next Milli Vanilli as well as they received the first one because everyone is on to the fraud.

Diesel · January 21, 2008

Quote:

Quote:

An admitted steroid user
who nobody liked even before the drug issues making a run during a time when the main conversation in baseball was about the tainted drug culture and the problems it was bringing to the game.

See this is part of the problem...

Barry Bonds has never admitted to using steroids. Even in his LEAKED grand jury testimony, he didn't admit to knowingly using steroids. However, public opinion has not only lied about the facts... they continue to propagate the lies that they tell as facts.

Quote:
Barry Bonds testified to a grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream given to him by a trainer who was indicted in a steroid-distribution ring, but said he didn't know they were steroids, the San Francisco Chronicle reported Friday.

Bonds told a U.S. grand jury that he used undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," which he received from personal trainer Greg Anderson during the 2003 season. According to Bonds, the trainer told him the substances were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a pain-relieving balm for the player's arthritis.

According to government attorneys, BALCO founder Victor Conte has identified the designer steroid THG as "the clear." A testosterone-based ointment was identified as "the cream." Olympic sprinter Tim Montgomery testified that
Conte used flaxseed oil containers to send "the clear" to athletes.

This is from the grand jury testimony that is supposed to be the smoking gun. Seems to me that it says that he unknowingly may have taken Steroids given to him by his best friend... but of course, that's not what Barry haters what to hear or believe. They want to believe that there is no way that Barry could have not known... however, if the bottle says flaxseed oil and it looks like flax seed oil... how do you know?

AHF · January 22, 2008

Quote:

Seems to me that it says that he unknowingly may have taken Steroids given to him by his best friend... but of course, that's not what Barry haters what to hear or believe. They want to believe that there is no way that Barry could have not known... however, if the bottle says flaxseed oil and it looks like flax seed oil... how do you know?

Oh, I believe Barry when he claims he had no idea what he was taking. Sure.

I think it is perfectly rationale to accept what he says at face value.

Just like I believe:

Marion Jones who said she never knowingly took steroids and - just like Bonds - surrounded herself with big-time dopers.

Rafael Palmeiro:

Quote:

Palmeiro said Tejada gave him vitamin B-12 that might have been tainted with performance-enhancing drugs.

Dieter Baumann, who claimed that steroids where put in his toothpaste without his knowledge.

Ben Johnson who denied taking steroids and said:

Quote:

the sasparilla-and-ginseng energy drink he took before his race was spiked

and this caused his positive test for steroids.

Dennis Mitchell who claimed that his high levels of testosterone were due to sex with his wife.

Petr Korda who said he tested positive for a banned substance nandrolone because he had eaten too much nandrolone-fattened veal.

Floyd Landis, who said that his body produced extremely high amounts of testosterone.

Justin Gatlin, whose coach announced that he got a massage where he must have been rubbed with a steroid cream without his knowledge.

Shane Mosley:

Quote:

In an interview with ESPN.com Friday, the former three-division world champion said: "Unknowingly, yes, some of the substances they are talking about, were being used as part of the workouts. I didn't know what the hell it was," Mosley said from Big Bear, Calif., where he is training for a Nov. 10 fight with welterweight titleholder Miguel Cotto

Juan Salas:

Quote:

"It was an accident," he said in Spanish, with bullpen coach Bobby Ramos translating. "I was not aware. I didn't do it knowing what was going on. It must have been something in a drink. I don't know."

"I was totally shocked that happened. ... I've been in the game for a while and I never had this kind of problem."

and

Tyler Hamilton whose tested positive was obviously from a twin sibling who died in utero and caused some of their blood to mix before Hamilton was born.

* * *

Why wouldn't I believe all these upstanding athletes?

So sure, I believe Bonds when he says he only used steroids for a limited time and did so unknowingly.

Why would I ever suspect otherwise? It isn't like he has said in the past that taking steroids is fully justifiable for athletes or like his body transformed late in life coinciding with a whole new level of performance. (Oh, wait...)

Diesel · January 22, 2008

Quote:

Seems to me that it says that he unknowingly may have taken Steroids given to him by his best friend... but of course, that's not what Barry haters what to hear or believe. They want to believe that there is no way that Barry could have not known... however, if the bottle says flaxseed oil and it looks like flax seed oil... how do you know?

<hr />

Oh, I believe Barry when he claims he had no idea what he was taking. Sure.

I think it is perfectly rationale to accept what he says at face value.

Just like I believe:

Marion Jones who said she never knowingly took steroids and - just like Bonds - surrounded herself with big-time dopers.

Rafael Palmeiro:

Quote:

Palmeiro said Tejada gave him vitamin B-12 that might have been tainted with performance-enhancing drugs.

<hr />

Dieter Baumann, who claimed that steroids where put in his toothpaste without his knowledge.

Ben Johnson who denied taking steroids and said:

Quote:

the sasparilla-and-ginseng energy drink he took before his race was spiked

<hr />

and this caused his positive test for steroids.

Dennis Mitchell who claimed that his high levels of testosterone were due to sex with his wife.

Petr Korda who said he tested positive for a banned substance nandrolone because he had eaten too much nandrolone-fattened veal.

Floyd Landis, who said that his body produced extremely high amounts of testosterone.

Justin Gatlin, whose coach announced that he got a massage where he must have been rubbed with a steroid cream without his knowledge.

Shane Mosley:

Quote:

In an interview with ESPN.com Friday, the former three-division world champion said: "Unknowingly, yes, some of the substances they are talking about, were being used as part of the workouts. I didn't know what the hell it was," Mosley said from Big Bear, Calif., where he is training for a Nov. 10 fight with welterweight titleholder Miguel Cotto

<hr />

Juan Salas:

Quote:

"It was an accident," he said in Spanish, with bullpen coach Bobby Ramos translating. "I was not aware. I didn't do it knowing what was going on. It must have been something in a drink. I don't know."

"I was totally shocked that happened. ... I've been in the game for a while and I never had this kind of problem."

<hr />

and

Tyler Hamilton whose tested positive was obviously from a twin sibling who died in utero and caused some of their blood to mix before Hamilton was born.

* * *

Why wouldn't I believe all these upstanding athletes?

So sure, I believe Bonds when he says he only used steroids for a limited time and did so unknowingly.

Why would I ever suspect otherwise? It isn't like he has said in the past that taking steroids is fully justifiable for athletes or like his body transformed late in life coinciding with a whole new level of performance. (Oh, wait...)

You're into Law right??

How then are you accusing one guy by showing actions that are not his....

That's like me saying Smoove and Vince Carter must be on Steroids because I have a friend name goat who could jump like them and he was on steroids. One point has nothing to do with another. Relevance? What you have said does not make a fact of consequence to your argument more likely. You just spewed out the actions of other people. Let's talk about Bonds. Aside from being heavily disliked before the grand jury (supposedly sealed) testimony leaked, what about Bond would you say makes him a liar in your eyes? Is there a history of Lying that you can present?

AHF · January 22, 2008

We have covered Bonds' actions in detail in the past. You are the necromancer - feel free to peruse those threads for details.

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming even before finding out what the FBI has to say. There is no doubt I would find against him if I was on a jury in a civil case. I would give him a chance to raise reasonable doubt in a criminal case because the burden is so much higher.

Even you have to recognize the guy has all kinds of red flags (regardless of whether they would be admitted in a criminal case) from (a) his own comments approving of PED for athletes; (b) the company he kept (Anderson & BALCO); © the comments of his former trainer about his drug use and masking agents; (d) his admitted "unknowing" use of steroids; (e) the dramatic change in his phyisique in his mid-30s; (f) the dramatic change in his play in his mid-30s; (g) the comments about admitted steroid use from his former mistress; (h) his trainer's willingness to spend a year of his life in jail rather than simply say "Bonds never did steroids and HGH"; (i) the fact that Bonds used other drugs and failed a MLB test for amphetimines; (j) the fact that Sheff admits starting steroids after training with Bonds; (k) BALCO chemist Patrick Arnold's testimony that Bonds and Sheff were given steroids; to (l) BALCO records showing Bonds tested positive for anabolic steroids and other drugs; etc.

Diesel · January 23, 2008

Quote:

We have covered Bonds' actions in detail in the past. You are the necromancer - feel free to peruse those threads for details.

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming even before finding out what the FBI has to say. There is no doubt I would find against him if I was on a jury in a civil case. I would give him a chance to raise reasonable doubt in a criminal case because the burden is so much higher.

Even you have to recognize the guy has all kinds of red flags (regardless of whether they would be admitted in a criminal case) from (a) his own comments approving of PED for athletes; (b) the company he kept (Anderson & BALCO); © the comments of his former trainer about his drug use and masking agents; (d) his admitted "unknowing" use of steroids; (e) the dramatic change in his phyisique in his mid-30s; (f) the dramatic change in his play in his mid-30s; (g) the comments about admitted steroid use from his former mistress; (h) his trainer's willingness to spend a year of his life in jail rather than simply say "Bonds never did steroids and HGH"; (i) the fact that Bonds used other drugs and failed a MLB test for amphetimines; (j) the fact that Sheff admits starting steroids after training with Bonds; (k) BALCO chemist Patrick Arnold's testimony that Bonds and Sheff were given steroids; to (l) BALCO records showing Bonds tested positive for anabolic steroids and other drugs; etc.

Let's see... First I give Diesel a personal attack before going into my spill... What's the purpose of that AHF?? I haven't attacked you personally? Does that work for you in the court of Law... You attack the other lawyer and then start your prosecution? Are you trying to prejudice people against what I have to say??? Don't worry, it happens a lot... I just thought that you were above the fray... come to find out, you're not.

On to some points...

You said you would judge against Barry if you were on the jury... I don't doubt it. However, you would not be on the Jury because you come in already having prejudged the situation. I recognize that it's going to be really hard for Barry to get a "fair" trial.. (whatever that is).. I mean, he's like one of the only persons in History to have Grand Jury testimony leaked... and the Law is not even pursuing that injustice.

Back to the case...

There are a couple of things. Anderson is a trusted friend of many many years who was also Barry's trainer. You have to ask yourself... how was Anderson seen before the BALCO scandal?

The second thing you say is that Bonds approved of PED for athletes?

That's very questionable. The only thing I recall Bonds promoting is ZMA. Strange thing is that ZMA is still legal. Hell, the Western Washington Football team did a study using ZMA and it was overseen by the NCAA. This is what is said about ZMA..

Quote:

ZMA is a combination of two minerals, zinc and magnesium, and Vitamin B-6 or pyridoxine. All three of these compounds are important in biological processes, and while studies have shown that most Americans get enough zinc and Vitamin B6, more than 50% are deficient in magnesium.

An increase in exercise can lead to the loss of vitamins and minerals making it particularly important for bodybuilding due to the blood sugar level rises and urination increases, increasing the loss of magnesium, zinc, B12, B6, folic acid, and many other nutrients. Although drinking water re-hydrates an athlete, fruit juice, sports drinks or foods high in water such as vegetables are needed to replenish water-soluble nutrients.

As far as the mistress... while Bonds was her man.. he was divorced and remarried again and it wasn't to her. So, as often as she was with Barry.. She never seen him buying or taking steroids. Only an Admission in 1999 when they were alone? Moreover, she tried to "blackmail him" before going public and when Cheap Barry didn't pay her and no respectable newspaper would pay her, she takes her story to PLAYBOY and also does a nude Photoshoot... But she's not in it for the money?? Ha!!

I think what has happened here is that guys from SF Chronicle has written a fictional book (Game of Shawdow) using some stuff from the grand jury testimony but mostly stuff that is fiction and passed it off as fact. AND because there's such a dislike for Bonds, most people are willing to take the fiction as fact.

AHF · January 23, 2008

Quote:

Let's see... First I give Diesel a personal attack before going into my spill... What's the purpose of that AHF?? I haven't attacked you personally? Does that work for you in the court of Law... You attack the other lawyer and then start your prosecution? Are you trying to prejudice people against what I have to say??? Don't worry, it happens a lot... I just thought that you were above the fray... come to find out, you're not.

My apologies. I thought you wore the "necromancer" label with pride - I really did not think that was insult. I was just trying to point out that this was ground we had covered before.

Quote:

Back to the case...

There are a couple of things. Anderson is a trusted friend of many many years who was also Barry's trainer. You have to ask yourself... how was Anderson seen before the BALCO scandal?

If Bonds didn't knowingly use a good friend would say so. Anderson won't. Wonder why? I don't.

Quote:

You said you would judge against Barry if you were on the jury... I don't doubt it. However, you would not be on the Jury because you come in already having prejudged the situation. I recognize that it's going to be really hard for Barry to get a "fair" trial.. (whatever that is).. I mean, he's like one of the only persons in History to have Grand Jury testimony leaked... and the Law is not even pursuing that injustice.

???

The authors of Book of Shadows did jail time because the feds were pursuing the leak. They definitely pursued that injustice.

Quote:

The second thing you say is that Bonds approved of PED for athletes?

That's very questionable. The only thing I recall Bonds promoting is ZMA. Strange thing is that ZMA is still legal. Hell, the Western Washington Football team did a study using ZMA and it was overseen by the NCAA. This is what is said about ZMA..

Quote:

ZMA is a combination of two minerals, zinc and magnesium, and Vitamin B-6 or pyridoxine. All three of these compounds are important in biological processes, and while studies have shown that most Americans get enough zinc and Vitamin B6, more than 50% are deficient in magnesium.

An increase in exercise can lead to the loss of vitamins and minerals making it particularly important for bodybuilding due to the blood sugar level rises and urination increases, increasing the loss of magnesium, zinc, B12, B6, folic acid, and many other nutrients. Although drinking water re-hydrates an athlete, fruit juice, sports drinks or foods high in water such as vegetables are needed to replenish water-soluble nutrients.</blockquote>

I was talking about these quotes excusing use of PEDs in baseball:

Quote:

"You're talking about something that wasn't even illegal at the time,'' Bonds said. "All this stuff about supplements, protein shakes, whatever. Man, it's not like this is the Olympics. We don't train four years for, like, a 10-second (event). We go 162 games. You've got to come back day after day after day. We're entertainers. If I can't go out there and somebody pays $60 for a ticket, and I'm not in the lineup, who's getting cheated? Not me. There are far worse things like cocaine, heroin and those types of things.

"So we all make mistakes. We all do things. We need to turn the page. We need to forget about the past and let us play the game. We're entertainers. Let us entertain."

Quote:

Q. Do you view the use of steroid as cheating?

BONDS: As cheating? I don't -- I don't know what cheating is. I don't know cheating, if steroid is going to help you in baseball. I just don't believe it. I don't believe steroids can help you, eye/hand coordination, technically hit a baseball, I just don't believe it and that's just my opinion.

Bonds wouldn't acknowledge that use of steroids was cheating (because it would kill his legacy as someone who used) and made this vague statement about steroids not being a big deal because players are just entertainers. So if steroids don't help you, they aren't a big deal, and we should all just forgive and forget then what is wrong with a little steroid use between friends?

Quote:

As far as the mistress... while Bonds was her man.. he was divorced and remarried again and it wasn't to her. So, as often as she was with Barry.. She never seen him buying or taking steroids. Only an Admission in 1999 when they were alone? Moreover, she tried to "blackmail him" before going public and when Cheap Barry didn't pay her and no respectable newspaper would pay her, she takes her story to PLAYBOY and also does a nude Photoshoot... But she's not in it for the money?? Ha!!

I think what has happened here is that guys from SF Chronicle has written a fictional book (Game of Shawdow) using some stuff from the grand jury testimony but mostly stuff that is fiction and passed it off as fact. AND because there's such a dislike for Bonds, most people are willing to take the fiction as fact.

You can certainly question his mistress's truthfulness or what other motives she might have. If you manage to make her out to be less credible than Barry Bonds (which is not a given despite her problems) then you have minimized one of about 20 different pieces of direct or circumstantial evidence. I would definitely love to try a case where all I had to do was show that Bonds used steroids by a preponderence of the evidence like in a civil trial. That would be like taking candy from a baby, IMO.

Diesel · January 23, 2008

Quote:

The authors of Book of Shadows did jail time because the feds were pursuing the leak. They definitely pursued that injustice.

Not quite...

They served 0 days in Jail...

Quote:

Feb. 21, 2007– Troy Ellerman Admitted Leaking BALCO Documents: Game of Shadows' Authors Avoid Jail

Troy Ellerman, former lawyer for BALCO president, Victor Conte, admitted to being the source of the BALCO grand jury documents leaked to San Francisco Chronicle reporters Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-wada. Ellerman agreed to plead guilty to four felony counts of obstruction of justice and disobeying court orders, to spend up to two years in prison and pay a fine of $250,000. As part of the plea, federal prosecutors will cease all attempts to put the reporters in jail for failing to reveal Ellerman as the leak.

AHF · January 23, 2008

Quote:

The authors of Book of Shadows did jail time because the feds were pursuing the leak. They definitely pursued that injustice. </blockquote>

Not quite...

They served 0 days in Jail...

Quote:

Feb. 21, 2007– Troy Ellerman Admitted Leaking BALCO Documents: Game of Shadows' Authors Avoid Jail

Troy Ellerman, former lawyer for BALCO president, Victor Conte, admitted to being the source of the BALCO grand jury documents leaked to San Francisco Chronicle reporters Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-wada. Ellerman agreed to plead guilty to four felony counts of obstruction of justice and disobeying court orders, to spend up to two years in prison and pay a fine of $250,000. As part of the plea, federal prosecutors will cease all attempts to put the reporters in jail for failing to reveal Ellerman as the leak.</blockquote>

You are absolutely right. So you have four felony count, hundreds of thousands in fines and years in prison for the guy who leaked it. Definitely sounds like the feds pursued that aspect of the case as well!

Diesel · January 28, 2008

Quote:

The authors of Book of Shadows did jail time because the feds were pursuing the leak. They definitely pursued that injustice. </blockquote>

Not quite...

They served 0 days in Jail...

Quote:

Feb. 21, 2007– Troy Ellerman Admitted Leaking BALCO Documents: Game of Shadows' Authors Avoid Jail

Troy Ellerman, former lawyer for BALCO president, Victor Conte, admitted to being the source of the BALCO grand jury documents leaked to San Francisco Chronicle reporters Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-wada. Ellerman agreed to plead guilty to four felony counts of obstruction of justice and disobeying court orders, to spend up to two years in prison and pay a fine of $250,000. As part of the plea, federal prosecutors will cease all attempts to put the reporters in jail for failing to reveal Ellerman as the leak.</blockquote>

<hr />

You are absolutely right. So you have four felony count, hundreds of thousands in fines and years in prison for the guy who leaked it. Definitely sounds like the feds pursued that aspect of the case as well!

Nope again. The judge threw out the recommended sentencing. Right now, Ellis is awaiting sentencing.

Point is that these guys knowingly seeked a leaked document and then published it and embellis

AHF · January 28, 2008

Quote:

The authors of Book of Shadows did jail time because the feds were pursuing the leak. They definitely pursued that injustice. </blockquote>

Not quite...

They served 0 days in Jail...

Feb. 21, 2007– Troy Ellerman Admitted Leaking BALCO Documents: Game of Shadows' Authors Avoid Jail

Troy Ellerman, former lawyer for BALCO president, Victor Conte, admitted to being the source of the BALCO grand jury documents leaked to San Francisco Chronicle reporters Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-wada. Ellerman agreed to plead guilty to four felony counts of obstruction of justice and disobeying court orders, to spend up to two years in prison and pay a fine of $250,000. As part of the plea, federal prosecutors will cease all attempts to put the reporters in jail for failing to reveal Ellerman as the leak.</blockquote>

You are absolutely right. So you have four felony count, hundreds of thousands in fines and years in prison for the guy who leaked it. Definitely sounds like the feds pursued that aspect of the case as well! </blockquote>

Nope again. The judge threw out the recommended sentencing. Right now, Ellis is awaiting sentencing.

Point is that these guys knowingly seeked a leaked document and then published it and embellis

So what you are saying is that they didn't care about the leaked testimony when the feds did the following:

* On May 5, 2006, Fainaru-Wada and Williams were subpoenaed to testify before a federal grand jury about how they obtained leaked grand jury testimony

* On Sept 21, 2006, the journalists were sentenced to 18 months in prison for contempt of court.

* On 21 December 2006, Yahoo Sports reported that one of Conte's initial defense lawyers, Troy Ellerman, had been targeted by the FBI as a possible source of leaks to the media during the Barry Bonds probe. This led to the journalists avoiding jail time.

* Troy Ellerman pleaded guilty on Feb. 14, 2007, to leaking the information, lying to prosecutors, obstructing justice and disobeying a court order not to disclose grand jury information. The recommended sentencing was two years.

* Judge White rejected the recommended sentence because it would have limited Ellerman to getting two years in jail and the Judge wanted the discretion to impose a LONGER sentence.

* In July 2007, Ellerman received a 30 month sentence - two and a half years long.

Thus, he was tracked down by the FBI, convicted, and received a longer sentence than the original maximum sentence and yet you think no one cares about this angle of the case.

Who has gotten the longest prison sentence in this whole affair?

Ellerman.

Diesel · January 29, 2008