These Hawks are DEEPLY Flawed

[TexasPete]

And there is no way around it. Horford is a PF plain and simple. Yes, he can slide over some and help us 10 minutes a night at 5, but he is a PF. Smoove is obviously staying at PF and cannot guard quicker SF's anyway. So, we have 2 damn good PF's. We also have two solid SF's in Marvin and Chill. Not great, but certainly NBA quality SF's.

We still have no answer in the post. None. Z can't defend and has become essentially a disaster. Shelden? Now there's a useless player. He is too small for the 5 and cannot effectively play the PF spot. This was the guy we passed Roy for? This was the guy who we basically shut down our draft for with the big promise?

The PG spot is a complete mess just like the 5. We have a rookie who isn't ready most nights who looks like he needs a year or two before he becomes a player. Jarrett Jack for the 11 would be looking damn good right now. AJ is slow and a stop gap. Lue just dribbles the shot clock away and kills ball movement...but Woody loves him. Our PG spot is no better than last year and I have reasonable doubts that Law will ever be a solid NBA starter at PG. Maybe he'll be fine, maybe he will be a solid back-up. But the juries out.

So, we did get another great piece in the draft in Horford. But, he plays another redundant position and didn't truly plug a hole. Just like all BK picks, he's is a square peg in a round hole.

That's why we need a trade in the worst way. We have pieces but they don't fit. I wonder if we could trade something like this:

Marvin/Lue or AJ/Lo/filler for

Dalembert and the 76ers 1st

I've heard they want to dump Dally and we need a center. There are no great centers out there and Dally can play the post. We would then trade Marvin who has clear upside for their #1 pick...which we could turn into a real PG.

Would they do it? No idea. But I've heard they want to start over and getting rid of Dally's deal would be big.

Dally

Horford

Smoove

JJ

Law/Rose or Eric Gordon

That front court would be rebounding and shot blocking machine. I do know we cannot win as currently constructed. We are too flawed.

[DrReality]

I am curious how the young Hawks will respond to the changes by the AS? There is really no way of knowing but the changes have to shake them up some.

I'm also curious to see what the press outside of Atl has to say about it. They may have more objectivity???

[TexasPete]

I think the players will be unaffected by the Mullin deal. They don't have much contact with him anyway.

I honestly don't think this move means anything other than the ASG want BK reporting to them.

Here's why...If BK had been blown out it would have been huge. But Mullin was a bit player anyway. He had zero role in building the team so he wasn't being fired for the Hawks court performance. It's not like the ASG is holding anyone responsible for what happens on the court. This was a clerical and procedural change.

As fans we all want some accountability at long last. I'm afraid that we are still waiting. Gearon always seems to think things are rosy anyway. He's basically delusional.

[DJlaysitup]

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I am curious how the young Hawks will respond to the changes by the AS? ...

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I don't see how they could see it as anything other than a consolidation of power. Not that Bernie likely had much to begin with (the way it sounds now). Still, it would seem that the BK/Woody team is firmly entrenched with a straight line to the owners. Besides, if there is a cost-cutting aspect to canning the President and the CFO, it would seem even less likely that the ASG would want to do anything which might increase their payroll as far as the GM/Coaching positions (at least to me).

[Spiral]

I agree with most of what you stated. I do think Horford is better than most other team's centers and he usually does an adequate job in defending the 5. Is he a better 4 than 5? No doubt. However, the amount of true quality centers in the NBA today is so few, I really think we could continue to play him at the 5 without too many negative consequences.

I see our problem as more offensive related. When this team was really clicking back in December, AJ was playing out of his mind. I think that demonstrated what this team is capable of with high quality point guard play. Looking around the league, I ask myself who could help bring continuity to our offense without giving away the farm to get him. I came up with a few names, but the one I like the most is Jason Williams. He's in the last year of his deal so we wouldn't be on the hook for a huge salary. The Heat appear to be going nowhere. What would it hurt to offer Lue/Shelden/Zaza for JWil/Earl Barron? We give away 3 players that redundantly make me shake my head when they enter the game for JWil and a center that Woody will probably never play. I think adding White Chocolate would give us another viable scoring option to help with our offensive lulls. Plus he can push the ball and would be another veteran presence for the youngsters. I think he would be worth the risk... assuming Miami would bite.

As for the trade you suggested, I would probably be for it if Daly's astronomical salary didn't hinder us from resigning the Joshes. I do not think that Philly gives us a first round pick just for taking Daly's contract off their hands. He's not a terrible player; just not worth what he's getting paid. If we throw in Marvin they might, but they have some pretty good swingmen already so I doubt we could pull that off. It kind of defeats the purpose of starting over if you give away draft picks. (especially high ones)

[Iman]

I do think this team is flawed if they want to contend for a championship. However, I think we are currently talented enough to go a round or two deep into the playoffs, maybe a little better if our talent matures and we find a decent point guard. To be better this year, all we need is JJ to play like he has the last two years. I think JJ's injury is taking him longer to fully recover from than we'd all expect. Once he comes around we'll look much better.

If a team were deeply flawed, adding one player wouldn't make them a contender. I think we'd easily be a second tier contender if we added a top point to our team so maybe we are just mildly flawed. Detroit would still be better than us if we had a player just like Chauncey. However, I think we'd be better than Phoenix, New Orleans, or Utah if we had a player just like each of their point guards.

[Guest Walter]

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And there is no way around it. Horford is a PF plain and simple. Yes, he can slide over some and help us 10 minutes a night at 5, but he is a PF. Smoove is obviously staying at PF and cannot guard quicker SF's anyway. So, we have 2 damn good PF's.

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I believe this (Horford - and SW the year before that - being an NBA Pf) was OBVIOUS during the draft.

For me the questions therefore were:

1) what draft prospect had the most superstar and mismatch potential?

2) what draft prospect could better play alongside JS at the forward spots?

With both questions I was 99% Yi. Given the > extent of his transition and his already great play I believe that within the 2-3 year time period this will be unequivcable. However, we are stuck with another bad decision in drafting Horford, this one no where near as bad as SW, MW, Chill, but still not the best or right one.

Now what do we do? I still think JS can play the 3 but the team would need serious perimeter shooting from the 1 if he did. Likely we have to trade one of Horford or JS. If we could rope in Gasol, I'd even trade JS and run a more traditional lineup. If not, we could easily rue the day that we traded JS. He must go to a WC team.

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We also have two solid SF's in Marvin and Chill. Not great, but certainly NBA quality SF's.

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Great. A 6th and 2nd pick for "NBA quality" at the easiest position to fill. How on earth does BK still have his job?

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We still have no answer in the post. None. Z can't defend and has become essentially a disaster. Shelden? Now there's a useless player. He is too small for the 5 and cannot effectively play the PF spot. This was the guy we passed Roy for? This was the guy who we basically shut down our draft for with the big promise?

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How on earth does BK still have his job?!?

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The PG spot is a complete mess just like the 5. We have a rookie who isn't ready most nights who looks like he needs a year or two before he becomes a player. Jarrett Jack for the 11 would be looking damn good right now. AJ is slow and a stop gap. Lue just dribbles the shot clock away and kills ball movement...but Woody loves him. Our PG spot is no better than last year and I have reasonable doubts that Law will ever be a solid NBA starter at PG. Maybe he'll be fine, maybe he will be a solid back-up. But the juries out.

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I'm willing to hope on Law some because of his leadership. I would have selected Critt. We'll see if that plays out better in 3 years.

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So, we did get another great piece in the draft in Horford. But, he plays another redundant position and didn't truly plug a hole. Just like all BK picks, he's is a square peg in a round hole.

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TP, were you for the Horford drafting at the time?

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Marvin/Lue or AJ/Lo/filler for

Dalembert and the 76ers 1st

Dally

Horford

Smoove

JJ

Law/Rose or Eric Gordon

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Philly wouldn't do it even if you threw in Za or SW (they want that pick of theirs badly), BUT if you don't want Philly going after Josh Smith I believe the first thing you do is send them MW. Not because of money, but because I think JS has had his fill of playing along side MW and knows it doesn't work. Brilliant!

Billy Knight has throughout constructed a flawed, frankenstein team. I don't see how people could ever support his mind numbing strategy that forsook the two most important positions (Pg & C) and the majority of skill sets (perimeter shooting, ball-handling, post scoring and defending, etc.). It is the disaster of all disasters because he has done so mortgaging our future (this year's pick) while building a team destined for mediocrity, the worst place in all of NBA basketball.

It will take the boldest, most creative basketball moves and mind to undo this mess, something BK is incapable of and lacks respectively. However, you can't spend a 2, 3, 5, 6, 11, 17, 21 picks and $25 mil in cap space and not have SOME capitol to work with and hope for the future. It's just that we have and continue to need a new GM. One without the ego and one capable of thinking bolder, more creatively, and better.

W

[exodus]

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With both questions I was 99% Yi. Given the > extent of his transition and his already great play

You obviously haven't been watching Yi lately. He is just a stand still jump shooter, and his percentage on those has been dropping after his fast start. His game off the dribble is nowhere near Marvin's level. His post game is far below Sheldens level. He can't finish inside at all.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07MIL9A.HTM

It isn't like he is a force on the boards either.

[coachx]

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I agree with most of what you stated. I do think Horford is better than most other team's centers and he usually does an adequate job in defending the 5. Is he a better 4 than 5? No doubt. However, the amount of true quality centers in the NBA today is so few, I really think we could continue to play him at the 5 without too many negative consequences.

I see our problem as more offensive related. When this team was really clicking back in December, AJ was playing out of his mind. I think that demonstrated what this team is capable of with high quality point guard play.

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Well said. Horford normally out rebounds his man and normally does not give up big scoring nights either. Something that can be said for any Hawks center since Deke. I totally agree the root of our problems is more offensive. The defense is average to good while the offense is just plain poor MOST of the time. It is amazing how much difference good PG play makes.....we saw it in December with AJ's good play.

Jason Williams is a playmaker no doubt. He could definately get the offense flowing. I'd take him as one year fill gap player too. If we can get rid of ZaZa too.....that wins more points with me.

[TexasPete]

I was for Conley and he is now getting minutes and appears to have a great future. I do much prefer Horford over Yi because Yi would have been our 3rd SF. He is a poor defender and just shoots jumpshots.

We need a trade and we needed one last week. This team is flawed beyond hope. It is like a jigsaw puzzle missing key pieces. This team will not contend for jack squat in it's current form. The fact that we play in the East makes us a playoff contender...BFD.

Incompetent boobs like Gearon and Levenson are all giddy with 17-20 and heading out West as long as they feel like the 8th spot is in reach. Woopty Damn Do.

[Swatguy]

Perhaps with Sterling voicing his displeasures a Clippers trade may be possible.

I would propose Zaza, Law, and Marvin for Kamen, Cassell and the #1 pick.

If the clips balk, I would take Kamen and the #1. If that is achieved, send that #1 to Portland With Salim for Sergio and their #1.

The second scenario nets:

Kamen

Sergio

Portland #1 Pick

From

Zaza

Marvin

Law

Salim

Is this reasonable?

[AtLaS]

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And there is no way around it. Horford is a PF plain and simple. Yes, he can slide over some and help us 10 minutes a night at 5, but he is a PF. Smoove is obviously staying at PF and cannot guard quicker SF's anyway. So, we have 2 damn good PF's. We also have two solid SF's in Marvin and Chill. Not great, but certainly NBA quality SF's.

We still have no answer in the post. None. Z can't defend and has become essentially a disaster. Shelden? Now there's a useless player. He is too small for the 5 and cannot effectively play the PF spot. This was the guy we passed Roy for? This was the guy who we basically shut down our draft for with the big promise?

The PG spot is a complete mess just like the 5. We have a rookie who isn't ready most nights who looks like he needs a year or two before he becomes a player. Jarrett Jack for the 11 would be looking damn good right now. AJ is slow and a stop gap. Lue just dribbles the shot clock away and kills ball movement...but Woody loves him. Our PG spot is no better than last year and I have reasonable doubts that Law will ever be a solid NBA starter at PG. Maybe he'll be fine, maybe he will be a solid back-up. But the juries out.

So, we did get another great piece in the draft in Horford. But, he plays another redundant position and didn't truly plug a hole. Just like all BK picks, he's is a square peg in a round hole.

That's why we need a trade in the worst way. We have pieces but they don't fit. I wonder if we could trade something like this:

Marvin/Lue or AJ/Lo/filler for

Dalembert and the 76ers 1st

I've heard they want to dump Dally and we need a center. There are no great centers out there and Dally can play the post. We would then trade Marvin who has clear upside for their #1 pick...which we could turn into a real PG.

Would they do it? No idea. But I've heard they want to start over and getting rid of Dally's deal would be big.

Dally

Horford

Smoove

JJ

Law/Rose or Eric Gordon

That front court would be rebounding and shot blocking machine. I do know we cannot win as currently constructed. We are too flawed.

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I am also huge on Dalembert for this team, I've always thought he'd be a great fit beside Smith, and on this athletic team in general. But if our lineup is PG/JJ/Smith/Horford/Daly, we absolutely will not be able to shoot the ball. JJ would be our only shooter and he is doubled most of the time so it's tough for him to get open and punish teams. We still wouldn't have anyone inside to command a double team to draw attention away from JJ. I think this move would make us a little better defensively and better on the boards, but our offense would probably get worse.

I really don't think our team is as flawed as you do, Horford is a rookie and so is Acie. Marvin is finally having his first decent year and Smith is still only 22. JJ has just been off this year but many of the games we've lost we could've EASILY won. Considering all that we are essentially playing .500 basketball and have beaten some tough teams. I'm not saying this team has championship potential, but we still need to remember how young this team is. Big men and PGs (Horford and Acie) are the two toughest transitions for rookies in the NBA, I still have a lot of faith in them to come around. I honestly don't see Horford being much better even if he was playing PF at this point. His offense definitely needs more work than I thought it did before the season began.

[DavidSomerset]

IMO, the only REAL concern with this team is 3 point shooting...Our low percentage, and our passiveness.

Other than that, I feel we are playing a small bit above what should be expected from this team.

From the beginning of the year, I said 38 wins and a #8 seed...So far, that is looking almost exactly right...We all know how quickly things can change, though...

I really feel like if we got an awesome 3 point shooter to come in here, it would help us out immensely.

[TexasPete]

I have heard that Kamen is untouchable right now. I would love him in a Hawks uniform but I just don't think so.

I looked at Dally not because I loved him. I looked at who we might ne able to actually acquire. He has made a lot of improvement but he isn't without flaws.

However, he would enable us to start putting guys in their proper places.

[TroyMcClure]

I wouldn't go after Dalembert for the flaws you mention. He's not smart/tough enough around the paint for me. I think it would be more of the same. I think DJ mentioned Mike Miller. I think he could help us as much or more than any big or point we could actually get. He would cure a lot of our ails. I don't think this is something even close to being a real situation, I just like the idea.

[TexasPete]

Dally's numbers are as follows:

11.5 ppg

10.1 rpg

2.5 blks

Those are not too bad. Next to Horf and Smoove we would have a defensive oriented, shot blocking front line second to none.

[AtLaS]

Yeah but who can shoot? Unless we get a PG who can shoot than our offense will be worse than before. It isn't like Smith/Horford/Daly can command double teams or consistently post up inside to take pressure off of JJ. Our defense and rebounding would definitely get better, but our offense would not.

I honestly think if we trade someone it has to be Smith or Horford, and at this point it would be Horford for me. I just don't think we can afford to lose Marvin right now since he's really our only shooter other than JJ (who draws constant double teams).

[Guest Walter]

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Dally's numbers are as follows:

11.5 ppg

10.1 rpg

2.5 blks

Those are not too bad. Next to Horf and Smoove we would have a defensive oriented, shot blocking front line second to none.

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We still need post scoring BAD! Please, please, let's not fill a position but overlook one of if not the most important skill sets. We need a post scorer in the worst way.

W

[TexasPete]

Problem is that good post scorers are hard to find. They are a valuable commodity that teams don't like to trade.

We could get a Gasol or an Eddy Curry who both score in the low post. But, neither is the total package although Gasol is light years better than Curry.

Here's the dilemma: Who do you target for low post scoring?

Or, the better question is who is available?

[exodus]

The answer could be right under our nose. Smith's inside scoring has been improving rapidly. Horford hasn't given us much scoring but that doesn't mean he won't in time.

I just don't see post scoring as a big problem. We are last in the league in 3 pt shooting. Next year when Lue, AJ and probably Salim leave we will really have problems.

Marvin needs to extend his range. Acie needs to show us what he can do. So far he has looked like a guy playing not to make a mistake. We also need to bring someone in who can shoot 3s.

If we improve from the outside that will open up a lot more inside opportunities for Smith and Horford.