Who here wants Finley?

[Diesel]

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/bulls.asp?intID=37797122

Apparently, all it takes is a Force in the middle and Finley can be yours... I mean, [censored], Fizer?

So, here's my offer:

Finley/Eschenmey/Avery Johnson for Theo/Hendu.

Two very fine Post players.

[Admin]

Nazr is better than Fizer is, so lets give them Nazr instead of Theo.......we absolutely cannot lose Theo, he is far too important for our little bit of defense that we play. Well I guess I shouldnt say little bit since apparently we were something like 8th best in the NBA last year in opposing teams FG%. I am sure Theo has a great deal to do with that since there arent too many easy shots in the post with him in the game.

[Diesel]

As it stands right now,

Theo is not so important to us. With his addition, we won less games than last year.

Plus...

Have you forgotten who Finley is?

He's a SG capable of 22/4/5.

And he can shoot from Outside.

[Admin]

Would I trade Theo straight up for Finley? Yes I would do that if we had a good defensive team and could get by without our stopper, but this isnt a good defensive team, but they were much better than the year before defensively with Theo.

Diesel you know better than to claim that the addition of Theo had anything to do with us winning less games, but just to correct you, Atlanta won 2 more games this year than last. This was a far better team on the court with Theo than without it and it was Glenn Robinson who is the reason that Atlanta didnt win more games than they ended up winning. I know you think its cool right now to ride Glenns jock and make him out to have been a mistreated player who didnt get exactly what he needed to be fully successful, but it was his acquisition that this team didnt recover from last year.

I would love to have Finley on this team, but I wont give up Theo to get him. I would rather move Robinson than Theo because this team cannot afford to lose their only terrific defender, but they could definitely afford to lose their offensive black hole. I am not saying that I would give Glenn away because I think he is a very good player in the right situation, but this team isnt built for Glenn and it is built for Theo or for a player like Finley. However, the reason that I mentioned adding Nazr instead of Theo is because of the junk players that Dallas was getting in the deal from Chicago compared to what a healthy Nazr can do.

[Diesel]

Especially not JT's jock like some of you are.

Let's think about this thing realistically.

Since the acquisition of JT, we have NOT won NOTHING. We have been a perinneal loser. Out of the playoffs... Year after year. AND, we have blamed everybody else BUT JT.

First year...

JT/JR/JJ.... Losing season. Blame goes to Lenny for not being able to 1. Handle JR... But mainly, the problem was first time PG JT. He was used and abused by most PGs but had to play because he was a first round pick. Most of our wins came because Coles played PG.

Second Year....

JT/JJ.... Losing season again. Blame goes to JJ. It was a pitiful display... JT couldn't beat out MM for PG position. BK was a breath of fresh air.... At the halfpoint, Deke was traded for Toni/Nazr/Theo. Supposed to have made us Better. Nazr averaged 14/12 down the stretch and Toni had 3 triple doubles.

Third Year.

JT/Email/Toni/SAR... This was supposed to work. All the chemistry was there. Toni makes everybody he plays with Better. JT still flip flopped between gaurd positions because he can't run an offense. He learned (as he had done before) to defer the offense to Toni. Problem was that Toni wasn't dependable. Reef comes in and has his biggest T.O. year ever (sounds familiar). All in all, who got the blame for us not winning? Nazr/Toni.... They are not good defensive players. Our end of the year schedule fooled some into believe that Ty Corbin Jr. and DJ were the reason for our winning.

Fourth year.

JT/Ira/Big Dog/Reef/Theo.... Looked so good on paper that the GM declared refunds if we don't win. Again, we are marred by T.O.s and problems running the offense. Who's at fault? Lon.... Babcock.... Must be Big Dog.

When will you guys start to recognize what's really going on. We can continue blaming everybody under the sun for not being able to play well when there's a SG playing PG. However, until we start the process of fixing the HOLE at PG, we will be passing the blame on to someone else Next year.

If you want to know the acquisition that we have not recovered from... It's not Big Dog's or SAR (he's next in the blame game)... It's JT's. Until you homers see that.... It will be more of the same. What do you think this draft is all about? Getting a ball handling 2? NOPE... Getting somebody who can run the offense because JT can't.... DIng DING DING.. We have a winner.

[Traceman]

Nazr

Reef

Dog

Finley

JT

I'd take that lineup all day and be MORE than happy. Bring K Willis in for the vet minimum to give Nazr a solid backup who can play tough on the interior. Take Brian Cook or David West with #21 to replace Hendu.

New lineup:

Nazr/Willis

Reef/Cook (or West)

Dog/DJ

Finley/DG

JT/DD

I'd bring Ira back if his price was right assuming that CC would go on the IR. If CC is healthy, I would have to let Ira go for cap reasons. I'd also like to pick up a veteran backup PG (Kenny Anderson would be ideal) for JT.

No doubt that I would rather trade Dog for Finley than Theo for Finley but no way Dallas does that. Actually, I'd trade ANYONE on our team for Finley except Reef.

[Admin]

Dont include me in your group of JT supporters. I love JT and I think that as a SG he can be a terrific player and I hope that happens with the Hawks. However, I have maintained that I would definitely like to have a better PG for as long as I can remember.

Unlike you though, I dont feel the need to blame Dogs inadequacies on JT. Just like I dont feel the need to blame JTs inadequacies on Dog.

Answer me this though Diesel, did the team not play significantly better and have a much higher winning percentage while Dog was out of the lineup? Can you answer that and still try and point the majority of the blame for the teams failure on anyone but Dog?

[chillzatl]

But you are refusing to see things from the other side of the coin.

Sure JT is not the perfect PG. But that doesn't mean he's completely to blame either. If we had a SF who can handle the ball and one who has moderate court vision, JT would have been more than successful. Though I think he was successful enough as it was.

You see, that's the other half of the coin that you aren't acknowledging in your recent crusade to vindicate bigdog.

It's been proven by stats, standings and *gasp* actually watching the games, that this team played better with bigdog NOT in the lineup. When we marched out Glover and Newble in the 2 and 3 we played better. As I said, it was clear in the stats. It was more clear when you watched it with your own eyes. Everything moved better.

I have no problems pinning some of the blame for this on JT. As I said, he's not the perfect PG. But this team played better, more cohesive ball without bigdog on the floor.

[dj_me]

Okay, I am completely and utterly tired of this GRob vs. JT bullsh*t.

Would you say that at the end of last year we were on the right track? We were winning games and our team seemed to click, right?

Then, we traded for GRob and a lot of fans from all over, including me, thought that we would be awesome. Well, I don't have to recount the season for you... We were mistaken! GRob only hurt us.

What proves this is the simple fact that we were clicking again with GRob off the f*ck*n' court! You can make the arguement that it was against sub-par teams, but f*ck, we WERE clicking. We WERE playing as a team.

And all this crap about "if we had a point that could distribute properly," IF WE HAD A FREAKIN' SMALL FORWARD THAT COULD MAKE HIS OWN SHOT, AND DECIDE WHEN IT IS BEST TO PASS IT OFF, AND WHO COULD INSTALL CONFIDENCE IN THE TEAM, AND COULD DEFEND BETTER THAN MY 80 YEAR OLD GRANDMA THAT HAS ARTHRITIS, then we wouldn't have to worry about not having an "old-school" point to hand the child the ball.

Face it, we are a tweener team. JT is a point/shooting guard, Theo is a thin ass center that could also be considered a forward, and SAR could play either forward positions. The only players (that actually play) on our team that couldn't be considered tweeners are GRob, Dickau, and Glover.

JT - PG/SG

SAR - SF/PF

Theo - PF/C

Nazr - PF/C

Hendu - PF/C

Ira - SG/SF

DJ - SG/SF

And, for the record, I will agree that GRob isn't the only problem. BUT, I will say that he is the BIGGEST problem.

[dj_me]

and yes, I would like Finley, if given the right scenario.

[jezmund]

I love Finley's game but I really think we need to hold on to Theo if he is healthy. How about....

Dog/Nazr/CC to DAL for Finley/Avery?

It all depends on how much they value Nazr. Is he really a solid bigman?

Gaines/JT/Finley/SAR/Theo would be pretty nice...

[cyman3]

GROB in an ATL uniform ERA

YEAR 1- LOSING SEASON- we suck... dont blame GROB

YEAR 2- JT is lost in FA (for arguement sake)... do u really think we can win? especially with what, 21st pick as our future? LOSING SEASON

YEAR 3- ?

we are at YEAR 2 right now and even with the SAME TEAM, we could be have another NO-PLAYOFF year... sorry to say HAWKS FANS (and no, this isint HOTLANTADUDE at my house using my computer and my screenname)...

Its the honest truth, we need something that works. Yes, we were playing better without BIG DOG (win/loss record wise)...

MAKE THE ARGUEMENT that those games DIDNT MEAN ANYTHING. Thats fine... if thats the case

we won more MEANINGLESS games w/o Big Dog than with Big Dog.

[Guest]

Theo had very little impact with out this season.He

can't board with a [censored].If we could stick Nazr back

in at starting center our rebounding would improve

and we'd have a good guard combo.

People shouldn't overrate Theo's so called impact last

season.

[Playmaker0017]

Diesel,

I am no JT supporter. I grew to loathe the little [censored] out on the court.

BUT, I think the majority of the burden falls on three things:

1) The lack of an adequate system that exploited our strengths

2) The lack of a strong coach who enforces his will

3) Big Loaf

Big loaf consistently forces his game and doesn't let the game flow naturally. That takes everyone else out of whatever rythm they normally have.

We play better when Big Loaf is NOT on the floor. Period. Plain and simple. He is just not the fit for this team.

Doesn't mean that JT is blame free. JT stinks in my opinion. I think he is a streaky player who refuses to learn from prior mistakes. He runs around aimlessly and wastes time on the clock. He also hoists dumb shots.

BUT, if I had a choice between JT or Big Loaf, I'd choose JT.

Load cannot be defended. He's a plain bum.

Play.

[Playmaker0017]

HotLanta,

I agree and disagree.

Theo was a force inside on defense. He MORE than made up for the combined blunders of the big threes defensive efforts. He did so MUCH better than Nazr would have.

Nazr wouldn't have boarded because he would be watching the ball go through the hoop too much.

Part of the reason he looked good is that Big Load wasn't letting everyone and their second cousin in to make layups or dunks.

I do think Theo is expendible though. I believe that without Big Loaf, we can depend on decent minutes from Nazr as a starter. But, it would have to bring something of serious value for me to really consider it.

I would rather lose Big Clog & JT before Theo.

Play.

[Guest]

Theo is a wimp.His lack of rebounding hurt us.When

Nazr played minutes for us a couple of years ago he

was averaging a double double.Theo's cheating off

his man to block shots at other people doesn't impress

me.He isn't Wallace or the old Deke.

All Theo brings to this team is shot blocking...No rebounding

and no scoring.It's freakin sad that Nazr can grab 3RPG

more in less minutes than Theo.Nazr is also alot better

offensive rebounder. and he can get more chipin baskets..

while Theo uses a unpolished offense to eat up shot

clock time and take unconfortable looking shots.

We were still giving up 98PPG...Hello,We wasn't improved

on defense at all.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Unlike you though, I dont feel the need to blame Dogs inadequacies on JT. Just like I dont feel the need to blame JTs inadequacies on Dog.

---

OK, Dolfan, you and I can come to some agreements.

1. JT is a SG.

2. JT is a very good Player but a very bad PG.

However, here's the important question....

How important is the PG in any offense? For example.... Marbury with the Nets vs. Kidd with the Nets. The Nets were a decent team with Marbury but they made it to the championship with Kidd. It's not that Marbury is a bad player. He's a very good player. BUT, Kidd is a very good PG and it shows because he makes everyone around them reach their highest potential. Right?

Well, how do you think that translates when there's a BAD PG? I would think that a Bad PG would have the exact opposite effect. A bad PG makes bad passes, can't get the ball to the players in the right spots, can't recognize defenses, can't run plays. I'm not saying JT is a bad PG... I'm saying he's less than average.

Finally, what happened down the stretch. Some say it was Big Dog being out?

Well, let's dispell some myths here. Big Dog only missed the last 8 games down the stretch.

We were 6-2.

Our 2 losses were away.

5 of the 6 wins were at Home.

What could have been responsible for our wins?

Sure you can say Big dog?

But you could also say:

1. Emergence of Glover

2. Stott's teaching finally getting through.

3. Improved Defense moving from Big Dog to Ira.

4. EASY Schedule.

5. Lack of Options for our Offense.

6. Improvement of Theo (finally).

Let's think now.

1. First, I will say that Glover improved as the year with on. That's with and without Big dog on the floor. Look over his last 2 months playing. More playing time in a better defined system helped Dion's game tremendously. This cannot be refuted.

2. Stotts was given the team in Jan. He had to reteach and retool the team. He had to define roles. So it's very possible that our team started hitting it's stride around the end of Feb. For further proof, look at Stotts first 10 games or so. Did we win any of those? His teaching had to take effect.

3. I'll admit that there was a benefit defensively to putting in Ira. He's a better defender than Grob. Ira moves better laterally. However, this is NO SECRET. When we got Grob, we knew he was not here for his defense. He was here for his offense and rebounding. YOU know, the 21/7 that some of you forget. IN his best game, Ira couldn't duplicate Grob's Average. It's like taking Ty Corbin over dominique. Sure you get better defensively.... But even an OLD dominique can get you 20. Ty never could.

4. How many forgot about the ease of Schedule. Look at our overall record. We are 26-15 at home... 9-32 away. This is how it has been for the last 4 years. So, it's no secret that for the past 4 yrs it seems like we make a Late surge because everything is coming together. But that's not the case. It's only our Easy Home schedule.

5. One other thing that happens for JT when Big Dog is out is that JT only has 2 options to think about. Either he throws the ball to SAR or he keeps it himself. It might not seem like Much but for JT, that's the difference between 9 assists and 6 turnovers. When you are not a good PG, you don't think like a PG, You don't see like a PG. That's JT. He's a SG. He doesn't think like a PG. He doesn't see like a PG. Give him less options, he'll do better.

6. It's no secret that Theo really didn't get his wind until Late Jan. Until then, Theo was a foul machine. For proof, Theo was 4th in minutes played... But 1st in fouls. When Feb rolled around, Theo had cut down his fouls and was playing much much better. Right in time for our down the stretch run.

So... I have given 6 valid, undenyable reasons why we surged down the stretch. Yet, all you guys refer to is Big Dog? I'm not on his jock... It's just amazing that a guy can play so consistently for 10 years, and you put him in our system and he responds the same way Reef did... Increased T.O.s, lower FG%... And the PG is not even questioned??

[Diesel]

Refering to my other post...

You have to truthfully ask the question, how important is the PG in the game of Basketball?

Many would say he's the most important player on the court (unless you play the triangle).

Maybe some of you have been spoiled by the triangle and believing that a playmaking PG is not important.

Maybe some of you have your playstation NBA game and think that if we put 5 good players out there it will work just fine.

Well, in reality, when there's no triangle, the PG becomes extremely important.

NOW.

Look at our team.

BIG DOG.... 20/6

Reef.......20/10

JT........16/8/3.

We were not built to defend. NONE of these players are defenders. We were not built to score 94 ppg. We should be able to get that EASY. We were built to put up 106 ppg and OUTSCORE our opponents. We have a classic setup.

A dominant Post Player.

A three Point Threat.

A second Scorer who can hit from midrange.

However, what we are missing is a playmaker.

If you give us Nick Van Exel or Damon Stoudamire and Move JT to SG, I guarantee we score 106 ppg and NOBODY be able to stop us. It would almost be worth it to trade Hendu/Nazr for NVE/Eschenmeyer just to prove this point.

JT is merely a SG. We all know this. When I see him, I see Allen Houston. We need to get guts like Philly and Move him like they moved AI. Because the same problems AI had as A PG, JT has as a PG... JT is a SG.

Read this:

http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~penuel/eval-iverson.html

In reply to:

---

But Iverson plays point guard, and anybody who has ever played organized basketball knows what point guards do: they run the offense. Running the offense means many things, such as distributing passes, calling out the plays, and controlling the speed, or "tempo" as they call it in the basketball world, of the game. However, the most important responsibility of a point guard is to unify the team and elevate each teammate's abilities to the maximum. Such qualities are immeasurable on paper, and it is not shown on the point guard's resume, but rather on his team's record.

---

Now, when you read this article... Replace Iverson with Terry.... Tell me, does it sound true to you?

[mrhonline]

Over the last 45 games that JT has played without Big Clog in the lineup, the Hawks have gone 26-19.

In the 69 games that JT & Big Clog played together, the Hawks went 26-43.

That's a winning % of 57.8 vs. 37.7. Sounds pretty straightforward to me. PG or not, JT *can* be an important part of a winning team.

Like Dolfan, I am skeptical of JT as the sole playmaker. That's why Robinson should be shopped for a 2 with handles. If one can't be found, then trade him for cap space. Why? Because there's no reason to pay a guy $22M over the next two seasons (plus luxury tax) if he doesn't improve the team.

Both Theo and SAR are overpaid as well, but it's obvious to anyone who watches the Hawks that these two guys actually give the Hawks a chance to win. (Although I'm not so reticent about trading Theo, I would like to see how the Hawks play with him & without Big Clog).

In fact, IF the Hawks are out of contention by this year's break, I would trade Robinson for Rice and Theo to Phoenix for Googs' expiring deal. You then move Nazr into the starting C spot and have actual cap space in 2004 & 2005 to build from...

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Over the last 45 games that JT has played without Big Clog in the lineup, the Hawks have gone 26-19.

In the 69 games that JT & Big Clog played together, the Hawks went 26-43.

That's a winning % of 57.8 vs. 37.7. Sounds pretty straightforward to me. PG or not, JT *can* be an important part of a winning team.

---

Come on MrH. What those stats really are:

8 games without Big Dog in the latter half of the season + 4 games without Dog in the Season + 33 more games from the second half of Last season. It's misleading because we always do better in the second half of the season. It's based on the easy HOME schedule. It's something we can always look forward to with our teams.

Just for your sake, let me prove this point...

Over the last 2 years.... From Oct to Jan we have a combined record of 33-62 (34.7%)

Over the last 2 years.... From Jan to the end of the season, we have a combined record of 35-35 (50%).

Now, you can try to justify these numbers however, you like. You can try to say it was Big Dog's absence if you want... However, I suggest you look at the schedule. In the beginning of the year, we take our West Coast Road show.. That usually is a brutal road trip. The fact that we are a horrible road team should tell you that the first half of the season, going on the road will unevenly affect our record. As has been shown here.

In fact... Not the similarities...

Feb-April 2002 Record: 19-18.

Feb-April 2003 Record: 16-17.

IS this a fault of Big Dog?

UNTIL you can completely remove the fact that our schedule gets much easier in the second half.... There's really nothing to talk about. We're a better home team. Down the stretch we had 13 out of 17 home games... In fact, there's no way that you can convince me that had Grob played, we would have not won those games anyway! And probably would have beaten N.O. Away.