Somebody refute this with FACTS

[BornandDieHawks]

I really think Speedy has made the decision to retire and his salary will come off the books.

[jhay610]

Speedy is going to retire. He and Mike Hampton are going to buy out ASG and change the name to Atlanta Hustlers, LLC.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You are correct on all of your points vdunk. Walter is just making outrageous assumptions based on his disability to be happy with anything the Hawks do.

---

[/indent]

Name one part of my analysis that is "outrageous". I used links, facts, and proof.

But yes, I am not happy with mediocrity.

W

---

[/indent]

Fact: We CAN resign Childress. To say that we WON'T resign him is merely an assumption.

BULLSHIT!

Show me how

without gutting our already thin roster!

Quote:

---

Fact: We CAN make trades to adjust our salary situation. To say that we WON'T make further trades this summer is merely an assumption.

---

[/indent]

Who will we trade that will open up $5-10 million in cap space? Please. Enlighten me.

Quote:

---

Fact: Chills is STILL ON OUR ROSTER. To say that he has been traded for Bibby is an assumption at best and a delusion at worst.

---

[/indent]

For three months he is. When he is not and we get little or nothing in return, will you acknowledge your error to me. I will gladly do the same in return. Probability is FAR HIGHER that Chill goes for little (2nd rder or less) or nothing.

W

[MikeWilksBooth]

Quote:

---

Speedy is going to retire. He and Mike Hampton are going to buy out ASG and change the name to Atlanta Hustlers, LLC.

---

LOL. Touche

[Dragitoff]

I ain't touching this argument with a 10 foot pole, but who said Smoove would be getting 13 million next season?

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

Given that we cannot

by all financial indications afford to keep Childress

or as Exodus adds, address our big man need, given we will have $64 million committed to but nine players, HOW can this move be seen as anything other than JC, SW, Lo, Lue, AJ, 2nd for Mike Bibby, how many other, better deals that get value for Josh Childress were out there, and how can it not be seen as anything other than a 3 month move to help ensure contract extensions for BK and Woody before Childress is let go?

The one fact is this. Nobody knows how much money the Spirit is willing to spend. If they want to keep this team together, they can. There are a lot of assumptions that you have based your whole diatribe on.. however, the truth is that you can say factually what the deal is with how much they are willing to spend to keep this team together.

Here are some facts...

1. You don't know how much ASG is willing to spend.

2. CHillz and Smoove are both restricted.

3. If they desired to do so, ASG can match any offer on Chillz and Smoove.

4. If they desired to do so, ASG can keep this team togther.

So with those facts, I will gladly sit back and listen to you make more assumptions. But those are the facts.

[pound4pound]

Walt

Why is it that you put so much value in Childress? His draft position is irrelevent but his offensive shortcomings are not. The reason why he doesn't start over Marvin is that he simply cannot get his own shot off. Even if you think he is better than Marvin - a 2/3 without a perimeter game isn't worth $7,000,000. Not unless your name is Isaiah Thomas.

Chill is a very good second team player, relying on hustle plays to get his points. I like him on our roster as a hustle player on a rookie contract - but for us to not get Bibby just to get Chill secured for next year - that's like being an anti-fan.

One thing that you stated though is true - BK and Woody did this to save their jobs. Hopefully they will work with this same motivation (produce or perish) for the remainder of their careers here.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Quote:

---

One thing that you stated though is true - BK and Woody did this to save their jobs. Hopefully they will work with this same motivation (produce or perish) for the remainder of their careers here.

---

BK's work is done.

The onus is now on the ASG to re-sign all this young talent, and for Mike Woodson to learn how to coach.

BK has put together the 2nd best young roster in the NBA.

[mrhonline]

Quote:

---

a 2/3 without a perimeter game isn't worth $7,000,000. Not unless your name is Isaiah Thomas.

---

[hussamga]

I dont know what the fuss is about...we took advantage of the expirings, gaining an asset. Bibby expires next year, means he can be flipped for more assets from a contender if he doesnt pan out here. We still have great longterm flexibility, after next year.

My outlook (personnel wise) now is sign smoove. Sign chillz for ~5m per, or S&T if hes 6-8 per, package with Speedy if possible.

If bibby+johnson backcourt doesnt get us a 2-5 seed next year, id think about moving johnson b4 2009 trade deadline, get a cheaper sg + picks and sign another pg depending on laws play. Trading bibby as an expiring would be an option too.

I still see us as being pretty flexible, with zaza+bibby as expirings, childress/johnson as trade assets. ASG just committed to take on salary for 08/09, which is great, because we need to know whats holding us back.. Woodson? Johnson? Size? Taking on salary shows that they are committed to make changes and hold people accountable.

BTW, im a johnson fan...but if we cant win around him with bibby, barring injuries etc...hes still worth 2-3 quality players/picks, why i would consider moving him next year.

[VarsitySlacker]

FACT: The entire team has publicly cried for management to make some sort of move.

FACT: The Hawks have been the laughingstock of the league because LOL SWINGMEN and LOL NO POINT GUARDS

FACT: This trade at worst, at least appeased those two needs.

OPINION: Joe Johnson and Josh Smith have seen Knight at least attempting to improve the team. It might not have been you, but someone was crying about how Smith was going to bolt as soon as he could because of the crap that was going on here. Any steps to ramify that should be taken.

FICTION: Mike Bibby is untradeable. Case in point: Remember trading for Terrell Brandon? Cap space is valuable. (Yes, I know it was the exemption from Brandon's contract because of injury. It doesn't lessen my point)

FICTION: Anybody here knows whats going to happen.

Bibby is not old. He's also not necessarily bad. He's also a proven point guard. This means that JJ can let someone else run the offense competently, and doesn't always have to be the last option. This also makes Smoove the third option, and Marvin the fourth, taking some pressure off of them. And it makes it significantly harder to double team anyone, because there's no longer a black hole at any position on the team.

I'm not a huge Bibby fan. But he is at least competent, and only signed for this year and next. Someone is eventually going to cry about short-term fixes and not building for championships, but I made a bet this year with my roommate that the Hawks would make the playoffs. And if the Hawks do make the playoffs, not only do I get my money, but the city of Atlanta might finally get some respect as a basketball team. That's something money can't buy. Ask New York.

[TheDude]

ASG has said they were willing to spend money and that they hadnt found the right deal...combining the joe johnson trade, the ATTEMPT at getting Kenyon Martin, Dampier, Cassell, and even Jason Kidd this year..plus the bibby trade doesnt make me automatically think they arent going to spend money....

i think they wanted to see how the homegrown boys could do this year and go from there...they saw they werent going anywhere so made the move..

i'm not saying all that is true, i'm saying it's definitely doable so i can't just bet the farm on them not willing to pay for Childress.

not to mention BK said he's still looking for a big man so Chill could still go.

but if the team can get to the playoffs and look impressive, they might be willing to pay the luxury tax if they think that's who they want.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

1. You don't know how much ASG is willing to spend.

---

I know only 3 teams not named LA or NY spent over the luxury tax threshold last year and I know $64 million of the 70 million are devoted to but nine players. I think that is pretty clear fact and d@mning if you think Childress isn't a goner for nil since we can't take back similar salary for him.

W

[hussamga]

All they gotta do is load the backend of smoove/chillz contract... not a big deal if luxury tax is giving you nightmares.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

All they gotta do is load the backend of smoove/chillz contract... not a big deal if luxury tax is giving you nightmares.

---

You can't load the back end of a contract. Raises are set annually. This is not the NFL!

W

[txsting]

Maybe you missed my reply in the other thread:

Walter, the cap and luxury tax levels are not set. NBA gets a nice fat new TV contract next year (about 20% increase in TV revenue, and the total NBA revenue is used to directly set these levels). We're might be looking at a larger than normal increase in these levels.

However, you can put that aside - we don't know what will happen there. But we do know this for next year:

Al Horford 4.0

Acie Law IV 2.1

Joe Johnson 14.2

Speedy Claxton 5.8

Mike Bibby 14.5

Marvin Williams 5.6

Zaza Pachulia 4.0

Solomon Jones 0.8

Josh Childress 7.0 (anticipated)

Josh Smith 11.0 (anticipated)

Salim Stoudamire 1.0 (anticipated)

Mario West 0.4 (anticipated)

#13 1.0

That's 71.4 M. That is very close and probably under the expected luxury tax (it was 67.9 this year). But, it's only for one year. That's key - and ASG can handle that. As I've said, we have options with Bibby after next year. We could resign him, probably for less since he'll be 31. We could move him at the deadline, and take back at least one expiring deal to decrease our 2010 outlay. We could let him expire completely if we need to (which is what we would have done anyway this year, barring this deal). I don't think we risk very much, and we have a pretty decent potential return. Not the least of which is relevancy. As you said SW isn't much of a loss, so I'm sure you won't argue that.

Anyhoo, yes we can keep Childress if we want. It won't be a problem, and I expect it to happen if we don't move him before the deadline.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

Maybe you missed my reply in the other thread:

Walter, the cap and luxury tax levels are not set. NBA gets a nice fat new TV contract next year (about 20% increase in TV revenue, and the total NBA revenue is used to directly set these levels). We're might be looking at a larger than normal increase in these levels.

However, you can put that aside - we don't know what will happen there. But we do know this for next year:

Al Horford 4.0

Acie Law IV 2.1

Joe Johnson 14.2

Speedy Claxton 5.8

Mike Bibby 14.5

Marvin Williams 5.6

Zaza Pachulia 4.0

Solomon Jones 0.8

Josh Childress 7.0 (anticipated)

Josh Smith 11.0 (anticipated)

Salim Stoudamire 1.0 (anticipated)

Mario West 0.4 (anticipated)

#13 1.0

That's 71.4 M. That is very close and probably under the expected luxury tax (it was 67.9 this year).

---

Actually, no, I increased the luxury tax relative to the anticipated increase in the cap and it came to a $70 million luxury tax threshold. We would be over the cap signing the MINIMUM number of players possible. Most teams do not sign the minimum, but regardless, even if JS only makes $11 million starting, given only 3 teams other than NY and LA went over the luxury tax threshold, don't expect the Hawk's front office to come remotely close to it.

W

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

1. You don't know how much ASG is willing to spend.

---

I know only 3 teams not named LA or NY spent over the luxury tax threshold last year and I know $64 million of the 70 million are devoted to but nine players. I think that is pretty clear fact and d@mning if you think Childress isn't a goner for nil since we can't take back similar salary for him.

W

Again, that's mere assumption. NOT Fact.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The question I want to know is . . what team out there is willing to pay Chill upwards of 7 million a year?

I see Chill getting a 5 yr - 30 million a year deal that increases incrementally. I'm not a capologist, but that means that next year, he may only be making a little over 5 million.

As for Smoove, the same thing may go for him as far as his max deal. He only gets the max, if someone signs him to an offer sheet. I see him as a 5 yr - 60 million a year guy. So that potentially starts him out at around 10.5 - 11 million.

I guess this a question that mrH can better answer.

If Chill is signed for 5/30 and Smoove is signed for 5/60, what would their 1st year salaries look like?

[txsting]

You see, I DO expect the front office to come close to the luxury tax, for one year at least. That's all they have signed up for at this point, ONE YEAR of big money. In fact, not only do I expect it, but by your own admission, we're already there. Childress or no Childress, we have already committed to being closer to the tax than the cap. Just days ago, our present financial situation would have seemed impossible, improbable to both you and I. But here we are, Walter. ASG has surprised everyone by making at least a 1.5 year commitment to pulling the wallet out. I'm not at all surprised the money is in the wallet, if you've been reading my posts, but this is the first time they have committed a lot of cash beyond the cap. It's a bit of a gamechanger you must admit. Bibby's not an all-star, only a borderline top-10 PG, but his presence represents an upgrade in talent and spirit. That should mean a lot to prospects of this young team that is ready to make the next step.

You realize we still maintain a lot of flexibility moving into next year? Our options will be open. Bibby will be valuable in the trade market at the very least, and with the option of resigning at a more reasonable price if we are playing well. In the meantime, this move will add leverage and credibility to the effort of resigning our core. It puts pressure on Woody to perform, NOW. It even puts pressure on BK for the first time. Up until now, none of his mistakes have hit the ASG where it really hurts. If this one backfires, doesn't help on the court or off, in addition to killing the profit margin, even BK's teflon will be wearing thin.

I am with you in the spirit of your argument - if this were to directly mean we lose Childress for nothing, then I no longer support the deal. I just don't think the FACTS support your strong-armed conjecture at this point.