JS shoots 3's because MW/Chillz are scared ...

[HAWKS1986]

Josh Smith is trying to compensate for the limited offensive skillset of two of his teammates who received the most minutes on the team..Marvin Williams and Josh Childress.

I had suggested if there was a Maggette or a Michael redd on the floor with JJ, then Josh Smith can focus on being a low post player.. However, right now, he is extending himself because MW/Chillz are scared to shoot long range shots.

Josh looks undisciplined at times, but I believe if he had shooters on the floor who aren't timid and/or clumsy, then Josh would spend more time making mid-range jumpers and defending the paint more..

The Hawks need a franchise small forward to complement Joe Johnson and Josh is the only one who has shown he is willing to take those shots.

People may try to dismiss the inability of Chillz/Marvin being afraid to shoot threes as a admirable quality-- thinking they know their limitations.. but its NOT! They shouldn't be commanding those type of minutes on the floor at the SF/Sg position if they are so limited offensively that they can't consistently drive to the basket nor is willing to shoot a three point shot..

Josh is extending himself because he wants his team to win.. Forgive me for the Vick analogy, but when he was playing, when the WRs weren't catching the ball and the RBs couldn't get in the end zone, then Vick took it upon himself to do their job.. Not because he wanted to, but he wanted to win so bad..

M

[clrumph]

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Josh Smith is trying to compensate for the limited offensive skillset of two of his teammates who received the most minutes on the team..Marvin Williams and Josh Childress.

I had suggested if there was a Maggette or a Michael redd on the floor with JJ, then Josh Smith can focus on being a low post player.. However, right now, he is extending himself because MW/Chillz are scared to shoot long range shots.

Josh looks undisciplined at times, but I believe if he had shooters on the floor who aren't timid and/or clumsy, then Josh would spend more time making mid-range jumpers and defending the paint more..

The Hawks need a franchise small forward to complement Joe Johnson and Josh is the only one who has shown he is willing to take those shots.

People may try to dismiss the inability of Chillz/Marvin being afraid to shoot threes as a admirable quality--

thinking they know their limitations

.. but its NOT! They shouldn't be commanding those type of minutes on the floor at the SF/Sg position if they are so limited offensively that they can't consistently drive to the basket nor is willing to shoot a three point shot..

Josh is

extending himself

because he wants his team to win.. Forgive me for the Vick analogy, but when he was playing, when the WRs weren't catching the ball and the RBs couldn't get in the end zone, then Vick took it upon himself to do their job.. Not because he wanted to, but he wanted to win so bad..

M

I agree 100%. I really hope we don't blow all of our future cap space on signing J-Chill and Marvin to long term contracts.

[Frenzy]

Chillz is alright on his 3's sometimes and kinda makes up for it with his slashing.But Marv,ugh................Marvin actually has the potential to be a good longrange shooter but doesnt really try enough imo.I would love to see marvin shoot more 3's than both Joshes,but its the other way around

[HAWKS1986]

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Chillz is alright on his 3's sometimes and kinda makes up for it with his slashing.But Marv,ugh................Marvin actually has the potential to be a good longrange shooter but doesnt really try enough imo.I would love to see marvin shoot more 3's than both Joshes,but its the other way around

Chillz has attempted a three pointer once in a blue moon, but he generally refrains from using it as part of his regular offensive arsenal on a game to game basis.

And Chillz is more of a slasher, but his shot is somewhat regularly altered, blocked or lose possession while in traffic (i.e. in game 5 against Boston)..it is not as bad as Marvin, but its not very good..

Dominique Wilkins the best small forward in Hawks history and NBA history was a complete offensive player, who wasn't afraid to shoot threes and attacked the basket..this is what is needed from the small forward position..

[TheTruth]

Chillz can actually shoot the 3, he just doesnt often. He is a career 36% 3 pt shooter (93 of 258). That's pretty good. He even shot a career high 49% in 05-06 season (on 65 attempts). Unlike Marvin who is a career 23% 3 point shooter (on 108 attempts), Chillz clearly can shoot it better. The coach just needs to prod Chillz to take more of them so it can COMPLEMENT his slashing game. Marv just either needs to develop the 3 pt shot (I mean, what SF CANT shoot a 3 at a high %?) or focus on being more aggressive. If he cant do that, ship his azz out.

As for that Josh Smith theory, I dont buy it one bit. He is hurting the team by taking SO many threes. It's not the fact that he is missing them, it's the fact that it is clearly not his strength--and it hurts the team in the process.

[Admin]

Josh Smith shoots 3's because he is undisciplined and thinks that he is a good 3pt shooter. Not because of any other reason. If Josh Smith would use his brain a little more he would realize that we would score a lot more points if he went to the rim where he makes about half of his shots instead of from 3 where he only makes a quarter of his shots.

Just doing some simple hypothetical math here but let's say Josh Smith shoots 24 times in game. Let's say that 8 of those shots are 3pt shots and he makes 2 of them (25%) which gives him 6pts. That leaves 16 more shots from inside of the 3pt line and he would make roughly 8 of those (50%) which would give him an additional 16 points for a total of 22 points on 24 shots. Not too shabby!

Now, let's say that instead of taking those 3pt shots he focused instead on taking 24 2pt shots at his 50% clip, which would give him 24 points on 24 shots. Again, not too shabby! 2 points might not seem like a lot but that doesn't take into account the fact that he will also have drawn more fouls and gotten to the line where he is an excellent FT shooter and probably gets him another 4 points. So now he has scored 6 more points for the game taking the same amount of shots.

Then you have to figure that if he is playing in the paint he is bound to get a couple more offensive rebounds which leads to more possessions for us and it also helps to prevent fast breaks because of fewer long rebounds from 3pt shots.

So there you have it, taking the same amount of shots in a game we are at least 2 points and possibly at least 10 points better +/- with him forgoing the 3pt shot.

[HAWKS1986]

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Chillz can actually shoot the 3, he just doesnt often. He is a career 36% 3 pt shooter (93 of 258). That's pretty good. He even shot a career high 49% in 05-06 season (on 65 attempts). Unlike Marvin who is a career 23% 3 point shooter (on 108 attempts), Chillz clearly can shoot it better. The coach just needs to prod Chillz to take more of them so it can COMPLEMENT his slashing game. Marv just either needs to develop the 3 pt shot (I mean, what SF CANT shoot a 3 at a high %?) or focus on being more aggressive. If he cant do that, ship his azz out.

As for that Josh Smith theory, I dont buy it one bit. He is hurting the team by taking SO many threes. It's not the fact that he is missing them, it's the fact that it is clearly not his strength--and it hurts the team in the process.

Is it fair to say they (Marvin/Chillz) are very reluctant or judicious in putting up three point shots? And is it fair to say if teams don't respect your ability to shoot the three (or score) then it affects the way opposing teams defend?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

But

He

Can't

Shoot

It's like a football team trying to turn Randy Moss into a running back, just because he's fast.

There is no justificaton for Smith to be taking 3's when he only makes 25% of them. If the shot clock is running out, then that's OK. But even then, he shouldn't be that far away from the basket.

He is our PF, not our SF. We need him on the inside, not the outside. Our PF can't shoot sub 40% FG. We need him closer to 50%.

He could be a 20 ppg - 12 rebs guy every night, if he just stay off the perimeter. He's a souped-up version of Shawn Marion, but isn't nearly as consistent as he is, because he won't stay off the perimeter.

The day he stops taking all of those jumpers, and starts trying to get his points from 15 feet and in, will be the day he turns into a superstar.

Until that day, he'll never be above a Lamar Odom level. That's not bad at all, but it won't make him an all-star caliber player either.

[TheTruth]

That about sums it up Dolfan. Smith does it because he falls in love with it (undisciplined) and isnt disciplined for taking them (by the coach). It is as simple as that. Smith is a much better player when he plays more like a TRUE PF and takes it to the rim. Like Acie, when he decides to drive the lane and take it to the basket, it is hard to stop. And against a soft, finesse team like the Celtics, Smith should be doing this damn near every chance he gets--not spotting up for long jump shots.

[Murat]

Quote:

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But

He

Can't

Shoot

It's like a football team trying to turn Randy Moss into a running back, just because he's fast.

There is no justificaton for Smith to be taking 3's when he only makes 25% of them. If the shot clock is running out, then that's OK. But even then, he shouldn't be that far away from the basket.

He is our PF, not our SF. We need him on the inside, not the outside. Our PF can't shoot sub 40% FG. We need him closer to 50%.

He could be a 20 ppg - 12 rebs guy every night, if he just stay off the perimeter. He's a souped-up version of Shawn Marion, but isn't nearly as consistent as he is, because he won't stay off the perimeter.

The day he stops taking all of those jumpers, and starts trying to get his points from 15 feet and in, will be the day he turns into a superstar.

Until that day, he'll never be above a Lamar Odom level. That's not bad at all, but it won't make him an all-star caliber player either.

You are right man,

I wonder does Chill practice his shot at all. That would drive me crazy all day looking at his jumpshot if i was his teamate.

[thefloydian]

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Josh Smith shoots 3's because he is undisciplined and thinks that he is a good 3pt shooter.

Bingo.

[bronnt]

Just thought I would chime in here before I lay the heavy end of the hammer.

As far as Marvin and chillz, I don't understand the piont from earlier about them playing inside their abilities. Yes, they DO know they limits. Childress is a decent shooter from three, maybe slightly below average at the NBA level. He likes to shoot it only from the corners if he's wide open. He shoots about 36% which isn't that great, but it's satisfactory. There are actually better shooters who shoot 36%, but those guys generally take more attempts from three and will shoot it when they are out of rhythm or when they are guarded. They also tend to be guards who have the ball in their hands a lot anyway, and are forced to throw up shots as the shotclock is winding down. So most 36% shooters are better than Childress.

Childress knows his, and he doesn't mess with it often. There are times, though, that his ugly form actually makes some pretty looking shots. I think he could shoot it a bit more, if he liked. Marvin is a bit of a different story. He used to think that he was able to shoot it from three. If you check out his attempts from his rookie season, he was taking and missing a lot of attempts from three. Last year and especially this year, he focused on hitting the mid range jump shots, and this year he really got into a rythm at times doing that. He's not able to spread the floor as much as a bonafide shooter, but if his shot is working, he does give a little floor balance.

Neither of those shoot the three ball because they aren't great long range shooters. The minutes at SF have to go to one of those guys. If we had an actual small forward who could consistently hit jumpshots, handle the ball, and play solid defense, I'm sure he would be starting over Marvin now. Childress still has his uses and would probably be getting as many minutes. The fact is, those guys are playing because they're what we have. I explain this because the question earlier seemed to pose the question "Why are those guys getting some many if they are unable to shoot three pointers?" I would submit that Ronnie Brewer is the starting SG for the Utah Jazz and he can't shoot three pointers. And the Jazz are a pretty good team-but most teams actually have a shooter at the off-guard.

Now, I've been working on putting together a shot log for Josh Smith. It's a lot of hard work. But basically, I'm dividing his shot attempts up into inside shots and jump shots. I'm not breaking down jump shots into two points and three pointers because ANY jump shot from Josh is a BAD thing. For inside shots, I'm counting any layup, dunk, hook shot, or runner (runners shouldn't be counted as jumpshots because they usually take place inside of 6 feet to the basket, and often use the backboard).

I'm counting any time that he makes the shot or gets fouled as a success. I coudl break down the fouls, but basically, even though he might not make all hsi foul shots, getting fouled is still a positive results. I'm just making each attempt a simple success/failed, so I'm not breaking down his "and 1s," either. I'm discounting any half-court heave-of which he has very few because he doesn't often end up with the ball and only a few seconds left. I'm also discounting tip-ins because the point is seeing what JSmith does with the ball, and tip ins are often created by other players. Even on tip-ins he creates off his own misses, I'm still discounting because missed tip-ins are not always logged as shot attempts.

I'm not done yet, by any means, but I think in the end I'll be able to say that he has a positive result well over 70% of the time on his interior shots, and a failure rate of about 70% on his jump shots.

Sorry for the long post.

[thefloydian]

He has been shooting great from the free throw line this series. I'm not sure what his stats were in the regular season, but he seems to at least be able to make the important ones. The same can't be said for Childress.

[frosgrim]

Quote:

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But

He

Can't

Shoot

It's like a football team trying to turn Randy Moss into a running back, just because he's fast.

There is no justificaton for Smith to be taking 3's when he only makes 25% of them. If the shot clock is running out, then that's OK. But even then, he shouldn't be that far away from the basket.

He is our PF, not our SF. We need him on the inside, not the outside. Our PF can't shoot sub 40% FG. We need him closer to 50%.

He could be a 20 ppg - 12 rebs guy every night, if he just stay off the perimeter. He's a souped-up version of Shawn Marion, but isn't nearly as consistent as he is, because he won't stay off the perimeter.

The day he stops taking all of those jumpers, and starts trying to get his points from 15 feet and in, will be the day he turns into a superstar.

Until that day, he'll never be above a Lamar Odom level. That's not bad at all, but it won't make him an all-star caliber player either.

So when it comes down to it, Smith is out of control on the offensive end OR he is being put into a position where he feels he has to shoot 3pters. Both of these options point at Mike Woodson, the guy you'll defend until the end of days, as the culprit for Josh's bad play. A coach that had control of Smith would have fixed this issue by now, but we are 3 years into Smith's career and he is still just as undisciplined as he was as a rookie. This is not to say Josh isn't responsible for his decission making, but a coach molds player's decission making and gets them to play within themselves. Smith is only 22 and needs to be told what to do and not allowed to do whatever he wants.

I also say that, given a better coach, who has a real offensive system, Marvin would be a better player. It appears that Woodson has told Marvin to just shoot those jumpers. Marvin is the Bizzaro of Josh Smith. Where Smith is his own man in the offensive end, Marvin is too passive and too willing to pass up good shots. Where Josh is difficult to coach, Marvin is too easy to coach.

What it comes down to, is that I don't think the talent on the team is being utilized to its best ability. The players tend to be doing what they want to do and not playing within a coherent system. Let me put it this way, Jerry Sloan would have never put up with Smith shooting all the bad shots he does. Sloan would have also developed Law and probably Marvin as well. Sloan understands that he has to rotate guys in and out of the lineup. I could make the same argument about the other good coaches in the NBA.

[TheDude]

Quote:

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Chillz can actually shoot the 3, he just doesnt often. He is a career 36% 3 pt shooter (93 of 258). That's pretty good. He even shot a career high 49% in 05-06 season (on 65 attempts). Unlike Marvin who is a career 23% 3 point shooter (on 108 attempts), Chillz clearly can shoot it better. The coach just needs to prod Chillz to take more of them so it can COMPLEMENT his slashing game. Marv just either needs to develop the 3 pt shot (I mean, what SF CANT shoot a 3 at a high %?) or focus on being more aggressive. If he cant do that, ship his azz out.

As for that Josh Smith theory, I dont buy it one bit. He is hurting the team by taking SO many threes. It's not the fact that he is missing them, it's the fact that it is clearly not his strength--and it hurts the team in the process.

holy cow, i didnt know marvin had taken 108 attempts in his career...i coulda sworn he attempts like 4 3pointers a season...the boy just doesnt shoot it...at least chillz will shoot it and hit it too..my only problem with chillz is that he doestn shoot it enough when he's open....i'd love to see our record when chillz hits at least one 3pointer.

[HAWKS1986]

Quote:

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Quote:

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But

He

Can't

Shoot

It's like a football team trying to turn Randy Moss into a running back, just because he's fast.

There is no justificaton for Smith to be taking 3's when he only makes 25% of them. If the shot clock is running out, then that's OK. But even then, he shouldn't be that far away from the basket.

He is our PF, not our SF. We need him on the inside, not the outside. Our PF can't shoot sub 40% FG. We need him closer to 50%.

He could be a 20 ppg - 12 rebs guy every night, if he just stay off the perimeter. He's a souped-up version of Shawn Marion, but isn't nearly as consistent as he is, because he won't stay off the perimeter.

The day he stops taking all of those jumpers, and starts trying to get his points from 15 feet and in, will be the day he turns into a superstar.

Until that day, he'll never be above a Lamar Odom level. That's not bad at all, but it won't make him an all-star caliber player either.

So when it comes down to it, Smith is out of control on the offensive end OR he is being put into a position where he feels he has to shoot 3pters. Both of these options point at Mike Woodson, the guy you'll defend until the end of days, as the culprit for Josh's bad play. A coach that had control of Smith would have fixed this issue by now, but we are 3 years into Smith's career and he is still just as undisciplined as he was as a rookie. This is not to say Josh isn't responsible for his decission making, but a coach molds player's decission making and gets them to play within themselves. Smith is only 22 and needs to be told what to do and not allowed to do whatever he wants.

I also say that, given a better coach, who has a real offensive system, Marvin would be a better player. It appears that Woodson has told Marvin to just shoot those jumpers. Marvin is the Bizzaro of Josh Smith. Where Smith is his own man in the offensive end, Marvin is too passive and too willing to pass up good shots. Where Josh is difficult to coach, Marvin is too easy to coach.

What it comes down to, is that I don't think the talent on the team is being utilized to its best ability. The players tend to be doing what they want to do and not playing within a coherent system. Let me put it this way, Jerry Sloan would have never put up with Smith shooting all the bad shots he does. Sloan would have also developed Law and probably Marvin as well. Sloan understands that he has to rotate guys in and out of the lineup. I could make the same argument about the other good coaches in the NBA.

Frosgrim,

Josh Smith is not as big of a wildchild as you portray him to be. He wants to win, and is willing to do anything to make that happen. I believe Sloan and Smith would get along..they might bump heads once in awhile. Karl Malone wasn't the perfect player.

However, Marvin Williams and Josh Childress would not fit a Jerry Sloan team. They are soft and have a limited offensive game and get pushed around too easy. Here in Atlanta, this has been tolerated, but Jerry Sloan would have already found a way to ship these two out of town.

Sloan got rid Greg Ostertag and Gordon Giricek ...because they lack toughness and weren't trying to get better...

At times, Chillz and MW are just going through the motions and hurts the team more than help the team..

[kelston827]

The headline and basis of the original post goes to show what most hear already know and abide by.

If someone with Smith or Smoove in their handle posts on the topic of Josh Smith, Marvin Williams or Josh Childress, just completely disregard it, as I've yet to see one that doesn't reflect an incredible, almost over the top bias.

[frosgrim]

Just by the fact that you use Josh's name in your ID, makes it tough to believe that you are objective in your asssesments.

To say that Childress isn't a Sloan type of player is just ridiculous. Sloan loves Childress types.

Second, I didn't say anything about Childress. I was refering to how much better both Marin and Smith could be under a coach who is better at designing, implementing, and teaching an offensive system.

As you say that Smith isn't the "wildchild" I make supposedly make him out to be, Marvin Williams isn't the wilting flower you make him out to be. Marvin does drive to the hole, Marvin does take shots, he just doesn't do it as much as we all would like. My question, which no one on this board can answer, is what the heck is Woodson telling Marvin? And by the same token, what is he telling Smith?

It is obvious Josh Smith takes shots outside the purview of the offense, especially when he lofts those 3 pters early in the shot clock. He also drives out of control and makes really bone-headed passes. These are critiques of his game. He does a lot of things very well, such as block shots and leap above everyone on the court. I think his post defense is also somewhat better than most make it out to be, but he needs to work on it (and what 22 year old doesn't need to work on his game?).

The take home message from my posts:

Both Marvin and Smith would be better players under a strong coach and staff that gets them to play to their strengths and helps them with their weaknesses.

[bronnt]

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Just by the fact that you use Josh's name in your ID, makes it tough to believe that you are objective in your asssesments.

To say that Childress isn't a Sloan type of player is just ridiculous. Sloan loves Childress types.

Second, I didn't say anything about Childress. I was refering to how much better both Marin and Smith could be under a coach who is better at designing, implementing, and teaching an offensive system.

As you say that Smith isn't the "wildchild" I make supposedly make him out to be, Marvin Williams isn't the wilting flower you make him out to be. Marvin does drive to the hole, Marvin does take shots, he just doesn't do it as much as we all would like. My question, which no one on this board can answer, is what the heck is Woodson telling Marvin? And by the same token, what is he telling Smith?

It is obvious Josh Smith takes shots outside the purview of the offense, especially when he lofts those 3 pters early in the shot clock. He also drives out of control and makes really bone-headed passes. These are critiques of his game. He does a lot of things very well, such as block shots and leap above everyone on the court. I think his post defense is also somewhat better than most make it out to be, but he needs to work on it (and what 22 year old doesn't need to work on his game?).

The take home message from my posts:

Both Marvin and Smith would be better players under a strong coach and staff that gets them to play to their strengths and helps them with their weaknesses.

Well said.

I do think it's apparent that Woodson tryin to turn Marvin into more of a post presence. We see the occasional isolation to get Marvin the ball in the post, just like we sometimes isolations to get Joe Johnson in the post. What's weird is that we very seldom try to isolate Josh Smith in the post, where he's a very efficient scorer.

But, with Marvin, you'll see some interesting things on offense. Sometimes he gets the ball at the wing or the elbow and then looks up at the rim as if contemplating a shot. He'll square up but then won't launch a shot. Then he hesistates and looks to see if there's anyone open, but before he really has time to consider passing it, he changes his mind and drives in toward to the hole. Sometimes he scores, sometimes he gets his shot blocked, sometimes he puts up a wild shot, and sometimes he loses control, dribbles off his foot, or has the ball outright stolen from him.